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The perfect trade for Ramsey

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Old 01-20-2006, 03:21 PM   #61
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Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey

He could also be Akili Smith or Ryan Leaf
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Old 01-20-2006, 03:47 PM   #62
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Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey

Quote:
Originally Posted by offiss
How do figure? The point being made is there has been plenty of players who have been written off and became good or great. I never said Ramsey would be Aikman, but he could be Brees, who I also compared his circumstance as well.

Funny if you have compared Aikman to lets say staubach in his 3rd year you would have been laughed at as well, how did that turn out?

If someone told you Drew Brees would be a pro bowler before the start of the 2004 season how would that have gone over?

I am not saying it will happen what I am saying just because a guy is on the bench, or is still growing as QB doesn't mean he wont become a good QB, some guy's take longer to fully develope.

YOU SEE!!!!!
Offiss, your entire argument regarding Ramsey boils down to one thing. You think he'd be good if he was just given the opportunity to play. But you don't even seem to consider that there might be a reason he's not getting that opportunity under Gibbs.

You also seem to glance over turnovers as if they're not of any importance when evaluating a QB. But in fact turnovers are the biggest reason any team wins or loses any given game. Brunell's 23 TDs to 10 INTs this year speaks for itself. The QB rating may have been 85.9 this year, just as Ramsey's was last year. But Brunell's QB rating was depressed by the number of times he chose to throw the ball away in tough situations rather than force passes.

Fumbles lost do not show up in the QB rating formula either. And that's what Ramsey does best. He's got a LONG way to go before he becomes Drew Brees.
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Old 01-20-2006, 04:16 PM   #63
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Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey

Quote:
Originally Posted by offiss
What was Brunells QB rating in 2004? Perhaps you should add Gibbs to that list as well. he did stick with an old QB who proved to have one of the worst seasons I ever saw.

What would you give up for Drew Brees, you know the QB who was about to be cut, only a prolonged holdout by Rivers saved his carreer, please would you explain Brees for me, I can't for the life of me figure out how such a horrible QB could become an all pro? Could it possibly have something to do with the coaching and talent around him? Just curious.

It wasen't like Ramsey was surrounded by losers his first 2 years? Brunell himself has stated several times that he thinks Patrick is extremly talented and can be a very good QB in the NFL, perhaps he realized as well last season was an effort in futiltiy for any QB in our offense.

And just for the record for all the Ramsey bashers, Troy Aikmen didn't do jack his first 3 years, in fact there was talk of bust, and Buerline being a better QB, as well as Walsh being the air apparent, not until his 4th year did he finally become a great QB. He also had much more playing time leading up to that 4th year than ramsey, as well as one coach and 1 system.
I don't know what Brunell's 2004 QB rating was (rather terrible I think) but his career numbers were solid. My comment was that if you were offered a third round pick for a qb with those career numbers and that you have shown no confidence in then you are not a football person. You have a much higher opinion of Ramsey than most football people do, a 3rd round pick is probably the most we can expect to receive.

As for Drew Brees, remember that if there wasn't a holdout Rivers was expected to come into camp as the starter. That was the plan. Everything came together for Brees, IMO, with the emergence of Gates and the trade for McCardell. Yes, the talent around him had a lot to do with it, but with the Redskins talent Brunell looked much better than Ramsey in camp and in pre-season games and the staff clearly didn't have confidence in PR after the Chicago game.. What was it, 3 possessions, 2 turnovers?

I'll admit that I am not a Ramsey supporter anymore but I base my assertion that he won't be a Redskin on the actions of the coaching staff and front office. They have had 2 offseasons and brought in 2 QB. He is not in their plans, period. Maybe Ramsey will develop into a great QB one day (I personally doubt it) but I know it won't be as a Redskin.
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Old 01-20-2006, 04:33 PM   #64
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Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey

It could be because these other GMs don't see as much of Ramsey as the Redskins do. Are they at every practice, every meeting, every film room session?
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Old 01-20-2006, 04:40 PM   #65
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Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey

Quote:
Originally Posted by offiss
There was a former Jet GM on the radio a month or so ago, he works in some compasity for the NFL, or writting for them [not sure] but he said that he knew several GM's who think a lot more highly of Ramsey than the fans and the skins organization.

Talent evaluation is being able to evaluate an individual within his circumstances, some players can look much better than they are because they are in a great circumstance, [see AJ Feeley] then other can look horrible because of their circumstances [see Drew Brees] that is what seperates the great GM's from the average run of the mill smuck, who just looks at a stat sheet and makes a determination.
Wait, so he's a former GM (meaning he lost his job) and he's a great GM because he doesn't just look at stat sheets?
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Old 01-20-2006, 04:42 PM   #66
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Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey

Quote:
Originally Posted by offiss
There was a former Jet GM on the radio a month or so ago, he works in some compasity for the NFL, or writting for them [not sure] but he said that he knew several GM's who think a lot more highly of Ramsey than the fans and the skins organization.

Talent evaluation is being able to evaluate an individual within his circumstances, some players can look much better than they are because they are in a great circumstance, [see AJ Feeley] then other can look horrible because of their circumstances [see Drew Brees] that is what seperates the great GM's from the average run of the mill smuck, who just looks at a stat sheet and makes a determination.
It was Pat Kirwan who works for NFL Network & writes for NFL.com who has said that Ramsey is held in higher regard by some GMs but that still doesn't mean they are going to give up a high pick for him. I'd love to get a 1st or second round pick for him but I don't see it happening.

I agree with the talent evaluation part of it, but my point is if you are offered a third round pick then you have to strongly consider it. Ramsey has shown more negatively than Feely did and probably won't warrant a 2nd round pick. I really don't base my opinion on Ramsey completely on his stats (though I am alarmed at his fumble numbers and his W-L) but the fact that he looks flustered and lost a lot and makes poor decisions when pressured.
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Old 01-20-2006, 04:44 PM   #67
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Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey

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Originally Posted by offiss
I really don't want to sound cocky about this, but IT IS only a matter of time before Ramsey proves he's a bonified starter, I have no doubt in my mind. But it's just senseless at this point to keep debating, we can come back to this when it's all said and done and reflect on who was right and who was wrong, we are just going in circles.
And yet you have nothing to substantiate that claim. You're just going off your own conjecture.
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Old 01-20-2006, 04:46 PM   #68
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Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey

Quote:
Originally Posted by offiss
I really don't want to sound cocky about this, but IT IS only a matter of time before Ramsey proves he's a bonified starter, I have no doubt in my mind. But it's just senseless at this point to keep debating, we can come back to this when it's all said and done and reflect on who was right and who was wrong, we are just going in circles.

And if he does, then you would've guessed right since you don't have any evidence to support such a claim, and if he doesn't, then you'll forever stick with the excuse that he didn't get a fair shot - no matter where he winds up playing.
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Old 01-20-2006, 04:48 PM   #69
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Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey

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Originally Posted by skinsguy
And if he does, then you would've guessed right since you don't have any evidence to support such a claim, and if he doesn't, then you'll forever stick with the excuse that he didn't get a fair shot - no matter where he winds up playing.
Exactly. And "bonafied starter" is an awfully vague term. But whatever, he believes that Ramsey is the real deal and that Brunell had no positive impact whatsoever on our team this year. Good for him. It helps him sleep at night
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Old 01-20-2006, 04:55 PM   #70
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Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey

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Originally Posted by TAFKAS
Exactly. And "bonafied starter" is an awfully vague term. But whatever, he believes that Ramsey is the real deal and that Brunell had no positive impact whatsoever on our team this year. Good for him. It helps him sleep at night
Yeah and I think he is right 100% right!!!! And I sleep very well too
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Old 01-20-2006, 04:57 PM   #71
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Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey

An interesting search reveals that Gibbs had never drafted a QB in the first round until Jason Campbell. Jay Schroeder and Cary Conklin were both 2nd round picks. Gibbs is a gut feeling type of guy. I think he sees uncertainty in Patrick and needs somoeone who steps up and assumes a leadership role willingly. Patrick so far has shown that he is a thrower, not a passer (yet). I was a Ramsey fan now I'm not excited to keep him nor glad to see him go. A lot of good QB's take a while to develop even then it is sometimes a case of "right time, right place". Patrick may not be lost cause but I think Gibbs is ready to let Jason Campbell be the next QB to take the 'Skins to the Super Bowl.
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Old 01-20-2006, 04:58 PM   #72
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Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey

I guess TAFKAS! I just don't understand it. If Ramsey was starting and had the same exact year that Brunell had or better, then I would have fully supported Ramsey. My loyality lies with the team and not just certain players. I stick up for Brunell, because everybody wrote him off last year - including myself. He came back this year and had a very good year for the most part. I realize he had some bad games, but even the Super Bowl quarterbacks we had on this team had bad games once in awhile.

However, if Jason Campbell steps in next year and shows he's ready, then I'll support him 100%! If somehow Ramsey stays on the team (not likely) and starts and plays well, I'll support him. But, I'll keep supporting Brunell as long as he plays and brings in wins for us. If he can't, Gibbs and company are smart enough to know when to the pull the trigger. They haven't made any bad personnel decisions yet.
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Old 01-20-2006, 05:12 PM   #73
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Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey

When we have these discussions about PR, no one ever seems to consider what Ramsey wants to do. He does not want to be a backup for us, period. This whole, "let's keep him another year as a backup to Brunell" debate is pointless if he doesn't want to be here. Gibbs NEVER keeps guys who don't want to play for him, and Ramsey is good enough to at least compete for a starting job at a few teams in the NFL. I will not comment on the "will ge be good elsewhere" debate because I frankly have no idea if he will be a good QB, as I've seen good things and bad things from him. But unless he is completely willing to be a backup, we won't keep him, and I think JC should be our #2 guy next year anyways.
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Old 01-20-2006, 05:16 PM   #74
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Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey

Quote:
Originally Posted by skinsguy
I guess TAFKAS! I just don't understand it. If Ramsey was starting and had the same exact year that Brunell had or better, then I would have fully supported Ramsey. My loyality lies with the team and not just certain players. I stick up for Brunell, because everybody wrote him off last year - including myself. He came back this year and had a very good year for the most part. I realize he had some bad games, but even the Super Bowl quarterbacks we had on this team had bad games once in awhile.

However, if Jason Campbell steps in next year and shows he's ready, then I'll support him 100%! If somehow Ramsey stays on the team (not likely) and starts and plays well, I'll support him. But, I'll keep supporting Brunell as long as he plays and brings in wins for us. If he can't, Gibbs and company are smart enough to know when to the pull the trigger. They haven't made any bad personnel decisions yet.
Ditto.
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Old 01-20-2006, 05:25 PM   #75
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Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey

Quote:
Originally Posted by offiss
I really don't want to sound cocky about this, but IT IS only a matter of time before Ramsey proves he's a bonified starter, I have no doubt in my mind. But it's just senseless at this point to keep debating, we can come back to this when it's all said and done and reflect on who was right and who was wrong, we are just going in circles.
Its only a matter of time until Halley's comet comes around again too. Whether or not any of us will be alive to see it is another question.
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