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Theismann Vs. Peter King...right now on ESPN Radio

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Old 01-31-2006, 02:45 PM   #46
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Re: Theismann Vs. Peter King...right now on ESPN Radio

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Originally Posted by onlydarksets
Those are good points, but the process can be improved drastically with one change in the rules. Per the HOF website:



There is no reason Peter King (or anyone) needs to be on the Board for more than 3-5 years at a stretch.
Why? I think having people on the board for longer periods of time provides the committee with members that have a sense of history and a better sense for comparison across eras. IMO, it seems that today most people think that nothing in sports happened before 2000.

AM's best bet is for old timers like King who actually saw him play as compared to newbees that think barry sanders is old-school.
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Old 01-31-2006, 03:22 PM   #47
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Re: Theismann Vs. Peter King...right now on ESPN Radio

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Originally Posted by irish
Why? I think having people on the board for longer periods of time provides the committee with members that have a sense of history and a better sense for comparison across eras. IMO, it seems that today most people think that nothing in sports happened before 2000.

AM's best bet is for old timers like King who actually saw him play as compared to newbees that think barry sanders is old-school.
Huh? That doesn't make any sense - you think Peter King has a better sense of history than Tony Kornheiser or Mitch Albom? Neither of them is on the Board, but could be added if the selectors were limited to, say, 5 years. I'm not sure why you assume that anyone who is not currently on the Board would be lack the ability to draw comparisons across eras. (Of course, it is ironic that PK has no sense of history and is unable to appreciate the magnitude of Monk's pre-2000 accomplishments.)

The selectors should be replaced after a set term. Limits help to avoid crap like this, where certain members get bugs up their asses about certain players for no good reason and prevent them from getting into the Hall.
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Old 01-31-2006, 05:05 PM   #48
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Re: Theismann Vs. Peter King...right now on ESPN Radio

To put in persepctive Monk's numbers.
He is currently 5th in all time Recs and 9th in Yards.
His 1984 season of 106 catches was the league record until 1992. After that there was an explosion of 100 recs years. He is currently 19th on that list. Of everyone else within the top 20(and I think the top 30) not one comes before 1990. Monk's 106 was so big that no one before or soon after challenged it. And PK thinks TO deserves HOF thought and Monk doesn't. Duh!
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Old 01-31-2006, 05:18 PM   #49
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Re: Theismann Vs. Peter King...right now on ESPN Radio

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Originally Posted by irish
I think the journalists are the best source for HOF voting because more so than any group, they are the most unbiased. Players are too caught up in their own world to see the league as a whole over time and letting fans vote would have the HOF end up like the MLB all-star game full of popular but maybe not great players. The HOF voting is not perfect by any means but its as good as it can be.

in my opinion media poeple should not be any part of the voting process. the voting should be done by fans and former players and/or coaches.
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Old 01-31-2006, 05:53 PM   #50
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Re: Theismann Vs. Peter King...right now on ESPN Radio

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Originally Posted by wolfeskins
in my opinion media poeple should not be any part of the voting process. the voting should be done by fans and former players and/or coaches.
I do think coaches should have input, but are fans and players qualified to determine who the best players are? How many people here would vote for Aikman? Probably not 80%, but it doesn't mean he isn't HOF-worthy. As for players, I think they would lack the ability, as irish put it, to draw comparisons across the eras.
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Old 02-01-2006, 07:20 AM   #51
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Re: Theismann Vs. Peter King...right now on ESPN Radio

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Originally Posted by onlydarksets
Huh? That doesn't make any sense - you think Peter King has a better sense of history than Tony Kornheiser or Mitch Albom? Neither of them is on the Board, but could be added if the selectors were limited to, say, 5 years. I'm not sure why you assume that anyone who is not currently on the Board would be lack the ability to draw comparisons across eras. (Of course, it is ironic that PK has no sense of history and is unable to appreciate the magnitude of Monk's pre-2000 accomplishments.)

The selectors should be replaced after a set term. Limits help to avoid crap like this, where certain members get bugs up their asses about certain players for no good reason and prevent them from getting into the Hall.
No, did I say he does? All I'm saying is that having long standing members of the committee provides a continuity that a constantly changing one would not.

What is amazing about this discussion is that it sounds like PK is the only vote keeping AM out. Obviously that is not true.
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Old 02-01-2006, 08:41 AM   #52
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Re: Theismann Vs. Peter King...right now on ESPN Radio

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Originally Posted by irish
No, did I say he does? All I'm saying is that having long standing members of the committee provides a continuity that a constantly changing one would not.

What is amazing about this discussion is that it sounds like PK is the only vote keeping AM out. Obviously that is not true.
Yes, that is what your prior post implied.

Thanks for the clarification, and I see your point. You are correct that it would provide continuity, but not all continuity is good. Case in point - a Board that continuously rejects Art Monk is not good.

PK is just the most vocal - has anyone heard any other member's rationale for not voting in Monk?
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Old 02-01-2006, 08:46 AM   #53
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Re: Theismann Vs. Peter King...right now on ESPN Radio

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Originally Posted by onlydarksets
Yes, that is what your prior post implied.

Thanks for the clarification, and I see your point. You are correct that it would provide continuity, but not all continuity is good. Case in point - a Board that continuously rejects Art Monk is not good.

PK is just the most vocal - has anyone heard any other member's rationale for not voting in Monk?
Not that I know of.

I think the reality is that if AM was going to get in he would be there already but unfortunately he's not. The longer he goes without getting in the less his chances become because he slips further down the records lists and further from memory. It a shame.
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Old 02-01-2006, 06:12 PM   #54
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Re: Theismann Vs. Peter King...right now on ESPN Radio

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Originally Posted by onlydarksets
I do think coaches should have input, but are fans and players qualified to determine who the best players are? How many people here would vote for Aikman? Probably not 80%, but it doesn't mean he isn't HOF-worthy. As for players, I think they would lack the ability, as irish put it, to draw comparisons across the eras.



former players would be the best poeple to do the voting, outside of coaches, they have played the game , they understand the worthiness a player can have to a team (which, in monks case, some media people don't realize how important he was. ex players do)

as far as fans go. fans would be great at voting (if they are truly fans of the nfl, not just someone who watches football casually) true fans recognize talented football players when they see them, regardless of the team he played for. i think, at least 80% of the people here would vote for aikman. i know i would. he was a damn good qb and won what, two superbowls, or was it three ?
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Old 02-01-2006, 08:48 PM   #55
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Re: Theismann Vs. Peter King...right now on ESPN Radio

I don't mean to take away from what Swann and Stallworth meant to the Super Steelers of the 1970s but I think that them getting inducted has screwed things for future potential Hall-of-Famers. Guys like Monk, Ellard, Reed, Fryar, even Gary Clark are on the outside looking in. Ellard and Fryar have better stats than Swann and Stallworth, but not the rings. Reed has as many SB appearances and better stats, but no rings.

Monk and Clark, however, have rings, better stats, more pro-bowl appearances (at least Clark does)

I don't know, the whole thing is just very frustrating.
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Old 02-02-2006, 02:12 AM   #56
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Re: Theismann Vs. Peter King...right now on ESPN Radio

Everyone knows that Peter King has been gunning for Monk for years. Hell, it's even on the Wikipedia entry for Monk:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_Monk
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Old 02-02-2006, 08:20 AM   #57
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Re: Theismann Vs. Peter King...right now on ESPN Radio

QUOTE OF THE WEEK
"It's legalized theft, a crime, that Art Monk is not in the Hall of Fame. Those voters ought to be absolutely ashamed of themselves.''

-- ESPN football analyst Sean Salisbury.
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Old 02-02-2006, 08:22 AM   #58
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Re: Theismann Vs. Peter King...right now on ESPN Radio

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Originally Posted by htownskinfan
QUOTE OF THE WEEK
"It's legalized theft, a crime, that Art Monk is not in the Hall of Fame. Those voters ought to be absolutely ashamed of themselves.''

-- ESPN football analyst Sean Salisbury.
Relying on Salisbury for support feels like an act of desperation
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Old 02-02-2006, 08:43 AM   #59
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Re: Theismann Vs. Peter King...right now on ESPN Radio

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Originally Posted by Dirtbag
Everyone knows that Peter King has been gunning for Monk for years. Hell, it's even on the Wikipedia entry for Monk:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_Monk
Love the wikipedia entry on Peter King - Clearly the entry was written by a Skins fan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_K...portswriter%29
King's credibility has recently been damaged by his capricious and arbitrary opposition to allowing Washington Redskin great Art Monk into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. King's increasingly defensive and incoherent rants on the subject have led to accusations of geographical bias.
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Old 02-02-2006, 08:50 AM   #60
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Re: Theismann Vs. Peter King...right now on ESPN Radio

Czaben has some decent posts on the topic. I like his response to King's ranking Ricky Sanders as a bigger threat than Monk:

http://czabe.com/daily/archives/2006...ex.html#000186
Quote:
Peter King’s arguments against Monk include the following…. 1. “He was only voted to 3 Pro Bowls.” (Rebuttal: Fine, so was Charlie Joiner, Lynn Swann, and John Stallworth. It’s also worth noting, John Riggins only went to ONE Pro Bowl. Tells you what that’s worth.

2. “Modern wideout numbers are threatening to obliterate Monk’s catch total.” He cites Keenan McCardell, Jimmy Smith, Marvin Harrison as examples. Okay fine. But they aren’t Monk’s contemporaries. If you look up at Pro Football Reference the list of Most Catches in a Season, the staggering number of 100-plus catch years is amazing. Monk’s 106 in 1984 is notable however in one very important respect. It’s the ONLY such mark from the entire decade! Once 1993 rolled around, wideouts began racking up 100 catch seasons like it was nothing. Hell, even scrubs like Brett Perriman had 100-ball years!

3. “Monk was the 4th most dangerous weapon on those Redskin teams.” Please. Ricky Sanders, while a nice compliment wideout, could hardly be considered a “bigger weapon” than Monk. Comments like this really make you question King’s ability to judge ANYTHING in regard to pro football.

Finally, I want to layout a pair of wide receiver numbers, and you tell me who is who.

Receiver A: 13 Seasons 5 Pro Bowls 743 Rec. 10,205 Yds 84 TD
Receiver B: 12 Seasons 5 Pro Bowls 750 Rec. 11,904 Yds 65 TD

Both receiver A and B were Top 10 in the league in Touchdowns (5 times each) and Catches (4 times each). The only significant difference is that Receiver A has just one Super Bowl ring, while B has three.

Who are they?

A = Andre Rison
B = Michael Irvin

And yet I don’t hear anybody banging the drum for Bad Moon for Canton, do you?
There's another one later on in the same page.
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