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Old 09-18-2006, 10:48 PM   #61
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Re: Let's talk defense

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Originally Posted by SouperMeister View Post
The biggest problem is that Snyder overpays for average talent and then doesn't have the cap space to keep his core group intact. Arrington never warrented Ray Lewis money, but Snyder all but ensured that we'd lose the #1 cover corner in the league (Champ) by overpaying for LaVar. I'm concerned that the money he gave Archuletta will make it much more difficult to retain Taylor when his contract us up. It also shocks me how little regard Gibbs has for the draft. People say that was his preference first time around, but I recall the Skins drafting a TON of their core players that were so crucial to the glory years, especially the original Hogs. I just can't see sustaining a winner without building inexpensive depth and eventual core studs thru the draft.
I agree with a lot of this, I really just scratch my head at a lot of these moves. A lot of times the drafts picks were excessive, a 3rd and 4th for Lloyd? I would have taken either or less.
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Old 09-18-2006, 10:51 PM   #62
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Re: Let's talk defense

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Originally Posted by SouperMeister View Post
The biggest problem is that Snyder overpays for average talent and then doesn't have the cap space to keep his core group intact. Arrington never warrented Ray Lewis money, but Snyder all but ensured that we'd lose the #1 cover corner in the league (Champ) by overpaying for LaVar. I'm concerned that the money he gave Archuletta will make it much more difficult to retain Taylor when his contract us up. It also shocks me how little regard Gibbs has for the draft. People say that was his preference first time around, but I recall the Skins drafting a TON of their core players that were so crucial to the glory years, especially the original Hogs. I just can't see sustaining a winner without building inexpensive depth and eventual core studs thru the draft.
The consensus is that Champ wanted out no matter how much money Snyder threw at him. He was sick of losing in Washington. Who can blame him?

As far as Rocky goes, he may turn out to be a hell of a player, but I think we were more set at linebacker than secondary around draft time. I'd much prefer to see somebody like Jimmy Williams at corner rather than who we've got now -- instead, we'll see Rocky making a special teams play every two games or so. The front office HAD to know that Springs is nearing the twilight of his career.

Looks like Holdman and Posey are going to hold down the fort at linebacker for most of this season anyway.
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Old 09-18-2006, 10:55 PM   #63
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Re: Let's talk defense

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I agree with a lot of this, I really just scratch my head at a lot of these moves. A lot of times the drafts picks were excessive, a 3rd and 4th for Lloyd? I would have taken either or less.
Hey Rexi, what was your opinion of Stubblefield when he left town for Washington?

On the local sportstalk show on the radio this morning, one of the D.C. newspaper guys remembered a conversation with a San Fran sportswriter around the time that the deal was signed. He said even though Stubblefield was the defensive player of the year and finished with 15 sacks, the Niners saw something that made them not jump at trying to re-sign Stubblefield. He finished by saying that the San Fransisco 49ers don't ever let anyone go that they can't stand to lose.

If only our front office had that kind of forsight.
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Old 09-18-2006, 11:01 PM   #64
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Re: Let's talk defense

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Hey Rexi, what was your opinion of Stubblefield when he left town for Washington?

On the local sportstalk show on the radio this morning, one of the D.C. newspaper guys remembered a conversation with a San Fran sportswriter around the time that the deal was signed. He said even though Stubblefield was the defensive player of the year and finished with 15 sacks, the Niners saw something that made them not jump at trying to re-sign Stubblefield. He finished by saying that the San Fransisco 49ers don't ever let anyone go that they can't stand to lose.

If only our front office had that kind of forsight.
Whoa that was along time ago and I was a lot younger then, but I remember liking the Stubby/ By duo. Our FO didn't have that kind of foresight for long, though...Terry Donahue *cough*
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Old 09-18-2006, 11:27 PM   #65
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Re: Let's talk defense

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Originally Posted by SouperMeister View Post
The biggest problem is that Snyder overpays for average talent and then doesn't have the cap space to keep his core group intact. Arrington never warrented Ray Lewis money, but Snyder all but ensured that we'd lose the #1 cover corner in the league (Champ) by overpaying for LaVar. I'm concerned that the money he gave Archuletta will make it much more difficult to retain Taylor when his contract us up. It also shocks me how little regard Gibbs has for the draft. People say that was his preference first time around, but I recall the Skins drafting a TON of their core players that were so crucial to the glory years, especially the original Hogs. I just can't see sustaining a winner without building inexpensive depth and eventual core studs thru the draft.
Well we drafted 3/5ths of our starting offensive line. In Gibbs' first run remember drafts lasted many more rounds and guys like Jacoby, Riggins, Rogers, Byner, Riggs, Williams, Clark, Sanders, Edwards, Geathers, etc. were all guys who weren't drafted by the Skins but were key contributors. Gibbs when he first returned that he wished he had the opportunity to go after free agents more the first time around had the rules allowed
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Old 09-18-2006, 11:49 PM   #66
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Re: Let's talk defense

It isn't coaching talent that money was wasting on, but player talent. Letting Clark go was a huge mistake, and I'm starting to wonder if Snyder just wanted to sell some AA jerseys. I'm not sure if he influences these decisions anymore, but I believe he does...
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Old 09-19-2006, 08:37 AM   #67
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Re: Let's talk defense

Funny how whenever we lose, talk always reverts back to talent acquisition.

I really don't see our talent level as a problem right now. It's piss poor execution and guys not playing up to their potential.

I really don't care how we get players or how much they're making. What it comes down to is them getting the job done on the field, which they're not doing right now.
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Old 09-19-2006, 09:00 AM   #68
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Re: Let's talk defense

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Funny how whenever we lose, talk always reverts back to talent acquisition.

I really don't see our talent level as a problem right now. It's piss poor execution and guys not playing up to their potential.

I really don't care how we get players or how much they're making. What it comes down to is them getting the job done on the field, which they're not doing right now.



I totally agree with you. It may be that the coaches haven't figured out how to use some of the players talent to their benefit yet. That or they are just not playing as a team. Playing as a team goes along way when your on the line/ in the trenches. We may have been able to double team guys like D. Ware.
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Old 09-19-2006, 09:45 AM   #69
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Re: Let's talk defense

Argh. D. Ware is still overrated, he was owned against Jacksonville.
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Old 09-19-2006, 10:01 AM   #70
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Re: Let's talk defense

It takes a longer time for a drafted player to develop than it does for a proven FA. A drafted guy won't make an impact the first (probably) and maybe not event he second year. A FA needs up to a half season to get ready and contribute fully on a team. All of our acquisitions have at least average if not better than average NFL ability. No one come in and plays to their max potential right off the bat. AA and AC are not playing up to their contracts, that's for sure.

The next time you guys change jobs, see how long it takes for you to feel just as comfortable as it did for your previous job (3 months?). And I know that's why we have practise but actual games is where the majority of experience comes from.
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Old 09-19-2006, 10:19 AM   #71
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Re: Let's talk defense

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Originally Posted by Mattyk72 View Post
Funny how whenever we lose, talk always reverts back to talent acquisition.

I really don't see our talent level as a problem right now. It's piss poor execution and guys not playing up to their potential.

I really don't care how we get players or how much they're making. What it comes down to is them getting the job done on the field, which they're not doing right now.
Why is it 'funny' to go back and reflect on the players collected by a front fice that has a knack for acquiring the wrong people for the system they're trying to create? That's sort of what happens when teams lose. You look at the players, question just how good they are, and criticize the guys that brought them here.

For a moment, let's be honest with ourselves and say some things that people probably don't want to hear: Maybe when you get right down to it, guys like Chris Samuels, Jon Jansen, Randy Thomas, Rabach and Dockery, are all either B-list players who were once real good but have seen their heyday and are on the decline. And when these guys line up against a defensive line who might be just slightly better, they don't stand a chance, and they fold. Maybe there was a reason why the San Fransisco 49ers didn't fight to keep guys like Andre Carter, Brandon Lloyd, and Mike Rumph. And maybe the same thing happened with St. Louis when another team started inquiring about Adam Archuleta.

Maybe, (and this one’s going to hurt) the 2005 season was a flash in the pan just like the 1999 team was. And maybe they happened to catch bad teams at just the right times like St. Louis without Marc Bulger, Philly without Donovan McNabb and Brian Westbrook, or Tampa Bay that coincidently had the same offensive problems in January that they’re having right now.

Maybe all the naysayers were right, and Mark Brunell was playing on borrowed time, and now we have to pay up. Maybe this team just isn’t very good.

I disagree Matty. I think it's perfectly legitimate to question to moves of an organization that has yet to establish a track record of building winning teams.

I don't find it funny at all.
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Old 09-19-2006, 10:45 AM   #72
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Re: Let's talk defense

[quote=724Skinsfan;217435]It takes a longer time for a drafted player to develop than it does for a proven FA. A drafted guy won't make an impact the first (probably) and maybe not event he second year.

I think while your statement is somewhat true, it's becoming more and more common in the NFL that if you get drafted at all, you're expected to become an immediate contributor. First round picks are almost expected to start immediately.
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Old 09-19-2006, 10:53 AM   #73
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Re: Let's talk defense

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I disagree Matty. I think it's perfectly legitimate to question to moves of an organization that has yet to establish a track record of building winning teams.

I don't find it funny at all.
Actually it is funny.

When we were 10-6 a year ago, we didn't hear too much complaining about the talent or how we acquire it.

Now we're 0-2 and all of a sudden the front office is again the scapegoat. Sorry, I'm just not buying it. Talent isn't our problem right now.

The front office has done it's job. They put the talent on the field. Now it's up to the coaches and players to make it all come together.

Yes the team is struggling right now and of course people want answers. But let's keep some perspective. It's a very long season. This team proved last year that they can turn things around. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt for now.
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Old 09-19-2006, 11:03 AM   #74
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Re: Let's talk defense

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I think while your statement is somewhat true, it's becoming more and more common in the NFL that if you get drafted at all, you're expected to become an immediate contributor. First round picks are almost expected to start immediately.
Right, but at what level of proficiency are the rookies playing at? How effective is their contribution? It still takes a rookie a longer time to fully contribute than it does a veteran. The rookie may start but he's going to get "picked on" by the offense or the defense. You don't see too many cases where a FA gets the brunt of attention because its generally assumed that they have a shorter learning curve. Do we want Mario Williams or Andre Carter this year?
All of the players we acquire were someones draft picks at one time or another. Some are castoffs others couldn't be financially retained. Whether we draft them or someone else drafts them doen't make much of a difference to me.
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Old 09-19-2006, 11:04 AM   #75
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Re: Let's talk defense

To the Carter haters...I'm not going to come out and say he's the best DE in the league, however his first 2 assignments: Bryant McKinnie and Flozell Adams, both who run about 6'7", 6'8" and a double cheeseburger away from 345, 350. He's a speed guy, but those 2 are a lot of man to go around. Carter also leads all DLinemen in tackles right now. Plus, he played in a 3-4 as a hybrid LB/DE, and is learning the GW system. He should produce and will, given time.

The injuries in the secondary are the main piece to this puzzle. GW doesn't want to hang them out to dry, so he blitzes less and sit back 6, 7, 8 guys. Our DLine is capable, but has probably seen 2 of the better OLines in the league these past 2 weeks.

The defense needs to be more disciplined in tackling and their assignments, and GW needs to get off the basics and let guys like Archuletta, Taylor and Washington loose on blitzes.
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