Disconnect Between Players and Coaches

GTripp0012 · 11-20-2006, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by illdefined

you wonder why our scoring offense is so low? because most of our net yards are given to us by 'bend don't break' defenses. and thats exactly what they do.

of all the yards Betts and Mark have racked up, how many of those passes have been TDs? how many Brunell TD passes have been in the endzone and not YAC'ed in? i know, thats not a stat. but its a serious clue to why we've had endzone troubles. Brunell's horizontal game couldn't break through defenses as the field got shorter and that's why all of Brunell's 'productivity' has been utterly moot.

I don't know what constitues a "bend don't break" defense (because no defense tries to be bad with a lot of field behind them and then decides to step it up, so it has to be a philosophy thing), and I'm not sure there's anyway to prove that most of the teams we have played this year do that. I'm not completely sold yet that "bend don't break defense" is a term that the talking heads just made up to describe a defense that seems to get lucky at oppertune times (because luck is a significant part of the game, but no expert wants to admit that). But at the least, it's an interesting theroy.

Brunell's horizontal game was money in the red zone last year as we had no goalline running game early on last season. This season, the only thing that changed was the coordinator (well, and we lost Robert Royal, which is bigger than anyone realizes), so it would be hard to blame the players for any dropoff in redzone efficency. I think one contributing factor is that we have fewer field goals this season because our range has declined significantly. We are doing more punting from inside the opponents 45 this season than any other team.

At least Frost is having a good year.

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 11-20-2006, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

This season, the only thing that changed was the coordinator (well, and we lost Robert Royal, which is bigger than anyone realizes), so it would be hard to blame the players for any dropoff in redzone efficency.

That assumes that player performance is a constant, which it is not.

GTripp0012 · 11-20-2006, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

That assumes that player performance is a constant, which it is not.

Well, of course not. But here I'm just talking about RED ZONE efficency. So if we had the same 5 guys on the line last year, Portis (for most of the year til this point), Moss, Cooley, and Brunell (9 games til this point), I don't think all of sudden these players would forget how to score.

The big difference is the playcalling. Too many times just outside of FG range, we throw on second and third incomplete, and have to punt rather than kick the FG. Too many times in the red zone, we run against stacked D's rather than throw, and end up settling for the FG.

And Gibbs does get a bit conservative on 4th down, not going for it on an inches situation where a FG almost doesnt help at all. But that was an issue last year also.

So yeah, player production is hardly standard, but we are doing stuff differently in the opponents end this year. We are there a lot more than last year (because of the playcalling), and we aren't scoring any more points than last year (because of the playcalling). That screams situational playcalling problem.

illdefined · 11-20-2006, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I don't know what constitues a "bend don't break" defense (because no defense tries to be bad with a lot of field behind them and then decides to step it up, so it has to be a philosophy thing), and I'm not sure there's anyway to prove that most of the teams we have played this year do that. I'm not completely sold yet that "bend don't break defense" is a term that the talking heads just made up to describe a defense that seems to get lucky at oppertune times (because luck is a significant part of the game, but no expert wants to admit that). But at the least, it's an interesting theroy.

Brunell's horizontal game was money in the red zone last year as we had no goalline running game early on last season. This season, the only thing that changed was the coordinator (well, and we lost Robert Royal, which is bigger than anyone realizes), so it would be hard to blame the players for any dropoff in redzone efficency. I think one contributing factor is that we have fewer field goals this season because our range has declined significantly. We are doing more punting from inside the opponents 45 this season than any other team.

At least Frost is having a good year.

it's always strange hearing "Luck is a significant part of the game" from the resident Warpath stat-evangelist.

"bend don't break" is most certainly a defensive philosophy, just ask "10yd cushion" Rogers about it (he just does it TOO far up). setting your defensive backs in an umbrella around the first down marker will give you the yards underneath but limit the gain. that's why everyone here was clamoring for an actual passing threat that can attack secondarys and god forbid, throw PAST their safeties. something Jason Campbell very amply represents.

last year we had a vertical running game to offset the horizontal passing game. that part i obviously don't blame on Brunell, but i can put some of the blame of this year's lack of production with the horizontal run game on no.8. if Brunell was more of a vertical threat, defenses wouldn't clamp down on the sides so much, right where CP would run to (and ultimately get hurt)

JWsleep · 11-20-2006, 07:01 PM

I think the offense has shown some signs this year, even with MB--the TX and JAx games it worked well. I have much more faith in the offense improving and the system clicking with the folks we have, especially given JC. I really believe it will come. Further, I do think that Gibbs will find a way to make the offense go, even though it'll still be Saunders at the helm. I believe the offense can work.

The defense, though, is much, much more worrisome. THere's a place where there is likely bitching, and WIlliams is not some warm, fuzzy guy. Nor is Lindsay. I wonder if Williams will take the fall this year, and Blache will get the reins on D? Then Saunders can be the heir apparent without rival, Gibbs can oversee the whole she-bang, and off we'll go. BUt my guess is Gibbs loyalty to Williams will prevent this, and Snyder won't dare meddle. So unless Williams falls on his sword, we'll continue on and hopefully things will get better. Remember: winning cures everything.

(PS: Is it just me, or is Williams really putting on the pounds? He looked almost Tuna-like at times... coulda been the TV at the Bar, though.)

NYCSkin · 11-20-2006, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firstdown

Give us an example of this growing rift between players and coaches your feeling is not being felt here. Are you making up problems that may exist for the sake of talking about a made up scenario.

1. The Portis situation. He says one thing about his injury and availability, the coaches say something else. He gets winded in games and takes himself out and Saunders' is stunned. He never seemed to enjoy this season and I think it went beyond his own injuries.

2. The Duckett situation. The message it sent to the RBs on the team when Portis went down. The lack of utilizing him throughout the season.

3. The Wide Receivers. Have heard Lloyd remark several times that he just runs the plays that the coaches call. Santana Moss has also been more melancholy than usual.

4. The O line. Jansen in particular often mentions that the Skins' should pound the rock more than the gameplan dictates.

And that is just the offense. Jason La Canafora dissects the defensive disconnect quite well in today's Post blog (props to SouperMeister for beating me to that reference)...

freddyg12 · 11-21-2006, 10:22 AM

look at the article - "defense rests..." from today's washpost. I can't recall reading more quotes from players about coaching ever.
NYCSkin may have a point. Of course when things go wrong, some will always look to blame someone else, both players & coaches could be guilty of that.

skinsfan69 · 11-21-2006, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Guy

I don't think it's really well suited that we keep calling all these outside runs, and it makes it harder to sustain drives... i mean, duckett is averaging 5.5 yards per carry (or something silly) and he's getting like 5 carries a game. last year we used that to take ToP. 3 and outs don't help us win, and throwing 34 passes in a rookie QB's first start is kinda questionable.

The outside runs are part of Saunders offense that helped P. Holmes and L.Johnson set records. We can't run up the middle all the time. You have to be diverse in your running game. And what are we suppose to do when we get behind. Run? People keep crying about the 34 passes. TB held the ball the whole game and they got ahead.

SmootSmack · 11-21-2006, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freddyg12

look at the article - "defense rests..." from today's washpost. I can't recall reading more quotes from players about coaching ever.
NYCSkin may have a point. Of course when things go wrong, some will always look to blame someone else, both players & coaches could be guilty of that.

But it happens all around the league, in every sport. Winning teams and losing teams.

The Zimmermans · 11-21-2006, 11:58 AM

i also don't believe that betts can carry a heavy load, i'd max him out at 25 carries before he starts losing steam and fumbling, hopefully duckett isnt the same.

DGreen28 · 11-21-2006, 12:01 PM

They need to let Saunders go after the season and go back to Gibbs football

Manusky91 · 11-21-2006, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGreen28

They need to let Saunders go after the season and go back to Gibbs football

Gibbs football? Do you forget how terrible our offense was last year? The only reason they won half the games was the defense. We were lucky to put up 14 points a game last year.

Mattyk · 11-21-2006, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manusky91

Gibbs football? Do you forget how terrible our offense was last year? The only reason they won half the games was the defense. We were lucky to put up 14 points a game last year.

Actually they put up 22.4 points per game last year.

This year they're at 18.2.

People always want to focus on the last few games, well what about the entire season? 11th ranked O, team records set in rushing and receiving, 5 games over 30 points, the offense wasn't too bad at all until injuries took their toll right at the end.

70Chip · 11-21-2006, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Actually they put up 22.4 points per game last year.

This year they're at 18.2.

People always want to focus on the last few games, well what about the entire season? 11th ranked O, team records set in rushing and receiving, 5 games over 30 points, the offense wasn't too bad at all until injuries took their toll right at the end.

I'll be evaluating Saunders on two points the rest of the way.

1. What does our running game look like without Portis? Can we "system run" or are we reliant on a superstar to gain yards?

2. Can we be a more vertical offense consistently with Campbell or is Saunders so married to his finesse stuff that even a strong armed kid that can throw the ball through a block wall gets hamstrung?

I guess what it comes down to is production. I want to see improvement in terms of production.

Matty is right. Last years offense was starting to bloom when, Thomas broke his leg and then Brunell was the hurt the next game. The Thomas thing really killed us. The running game was never the same.

11-20-2006, 07:01 PM	#35
JWsleep Propane and propane accessories Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Houston, TX Age: 45 Posts: 4,626	Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches I think the offense has shown some signs this year, even with MB--the TX and JAx games it worked well. I have much more faith in the offense improving and the system clicking with the folks we have, especially given JC. I really believe it will come. Further, I do think that Gibbs will find a way to make the offense go, even though it'll still be Saunders at the helm. I believe the offense can work. The defense, though, is much, much more worrisome. THere's a place where there is likely bitching, and WIlliams is not some warm, fuzzy guy. Nor is Lindsay. I wonder if Williams will take the fall this year, and Blache will get the reins on D? Then Saunders can be the heir apparent without rival, Gibbs can oversee the whole she-bang, and off we'll go. BUt my guess is Gibbs loyalty to Williams will prevent this, and Snyder won't dare meddle. So unless Williams falls on his sword, we'll continue on and hopefully things will get better. Remember: winning cures everything. (PS: Is it just me, or is Williams really putting on the pounds? He looked almost Tuna-like at times... coulda been the TV at the Bar, though.) __________________ Hail from Houston!

11-21-2006, 10:22 AM	#37
freddyg12 Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,540	Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches look at the article - "defense rests..." from today's washpost. I can't recall reading more quotes from players about coaching ever. NYCSkin may have a point. Of course when things go wrong, some will always look to blame someone else, both players & coaches could be guilty of that.

11-21-2006, 11:58 AM	#40
The Zimmermans Impact Rookie Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Woodley Park, Washington DC Age: 30 Posts: 937	Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches i also don't believe that betts can carry a heavy load, i'd max him out at 25 carries before he starts losing steam and fumbling, hopefully duckett isnt the same. __________________ Dan Snyder is a Cancer, Joe Gibbs is the Cure

11-21-2006, 12:01 PM	#41
DGreen28 Special Teams Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Rocky Mount NC Age: 37 Posts: 133	Re: Disconnect Between Players and Coaches They need to let Saunders go after the season and go back to Gibbs football

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