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In a Perfect World: A Look Back at the 'Skins Major Offseason Moves

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View Poll Results: Which would have been better, "my plan" or how things actually worked out?
Ramseyfan's plan (yes I know hindsight is 20/20) 3 9.68%
Dan Snyder/Joe Gibbs' plan (how the offseason actually played out) 28 90.32%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-22-2004, 07:11 PM   #16
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he might not post every day, but man when he does what a post!
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Old 07-22-2004, 07:17 PM   #17
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and you have no gaurantees that you're choices would even be available... what if minn's offer wasn't on the table? how can you be sure they'd agree to the terms etc... its too hard to guess how 400 variables would shake out...

I personally do believe brunell got too much, but he is the best of the bunch, but I would do the portis trade everytime. Danny is paying over 10 mill for coaching isn't he? why skimp on the tools that the staff needs to win... there are serious personal decisions that will (most likely) have to be made because of how the FO has been operating, so Danny has to minimize the possibility of failures and take proven players when possible. All IMHO though.
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Old 07-22-2004, 07:19 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramseyfan
It’s true that Portis gives us a proven performer and that Stephen Jackson is far from a guaranteed success. But, remember that this difference is reflected in the two types of players’ contracts. We paid through the nose to get Portis whereas the Rams will pay a pretty modest price for the draft’s top back. The simple fact is that you can’t keep trying to get proven performers via free agency, they are too costly and if they blow out a knee you up sh-ts creek without a paddle.
I heard on PTI today that Jackson is holding out and that Martz is ready to move on without him. How modest did you say that contract would be??
I don't know but I,ll take Portis!!
I do think that we paid way to much for Burnell!!! I would rather have signed Jeff Garcia for free. But over all I like our moves.
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Old 07-22-2004, 07:27 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Riggo44
I heard on PTI today that Jackson is holding out and that Martz is ready to move on without him. How modest did you say that contract would be??
I don't know but I,ll take Portis!!
I do think that we paid way to much for Burnell!!! I would rather have signed Jeff Garcia for free. But over all I like our moves.
It's a little early to say that Jackson is holding out, camp hasn't even begun, Martz will not move on without him, and his contract will be much, much, much cheaper than Portis'. I'm not saying Jackson will be the next Clinton Portis or that he will come dirt cheap. I'm also not knocking Portis (God knows I'm a huge fan). I also said in my original post that I like the deal and think Portis will do a TON to help both our offense AND the defense, I just don't think it is the best option we had.
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Old 07-22-2004, 07:28 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Bergman14
he might not post every day, but man when he does what a post!
If you are referring to me thank you. Trust me, once the season nears I'm going postal....get it (yes, I know that was extremely corny). My posts won't be great but they will be often.
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Old 07-22-2004, 09:06 PM   #21
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I like your plan Ramseyfan, its very similiar to my post a few weeks ago on what i would have done. Building through the draft is clearly the best way to build a team in this era of the salary cap. A strong draft class coupled with a FEW kep free agent signings allows you to have a talented team that you can KEEP together for a long time.
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Old 07-22-2004, 09:10 PM   #22
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The only think i don't agree with is the number 5 pick for a 21 and 32. That is clearly not a fair deal. Now the number 5 pick for 21, 32 and Ty law and now were talking. AND you know the patriots were trying to get rid of law.
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Old 07-22-2004, 09:30 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Ramseyfan
I must respectfully take issue with the claim that 75%-80% of draftees do not live up to their hype. For player who does not meet expectations, youíve got one who exceeds them. I would say that most early round picks pan out. Jessie Armstead, Rich Gannon, Brad Johnson, Steve Smith, Laveranues Coles, Stephen Davis, Jeremiah Trotter, Rock Cartwright, Patrick Ramsey, and Darnerian McCants are just a few examples of Redskins (from various rounds) who I think exceeded expectations (if you consider where they were drafted and how they turned out).

Youíve got to draft well or you just canít be a successful franchise for more than one or two years. Iím a firm believer in gambling on the draft. Also, donít free agents represent a gamble? Dan Wilkinson, Dana Stubblefield, Marco Coleman, Bruce Smith, Jeremiah Trotter are just a few examples of huge free agent letdowns.
WOW!!!! This one is WAY out there. Go through any season since the NFL started, and list 50% of the drafted players that YOU think lived up to their billing. You will have a tough time getting to 20%!!!

Now for the list of Redskins that you reeled off that exceeded expectations LOL. They were drafted over the past 15+ years, and most were not even DRAFTED by the Redskins. Take a look at THIS much longer list of ONLY REDSKIN draftees from the SIX (not 15) years ending 2002 that did NOT perform: Greg Jones, Jamel Williams, Keith Thibodeeaux, Twan Russell, Brad Badger, Skip Hicks, Mark Fischer, Pat Palmer, David Terrell, Antwaun Ponds, Nate Stimson, Derek Smith (the OL, not LB), Jeff Hall, Tim Alexander, Lloyd Harrison, Michael Moore, Quincy Sanders, Todd Husak, Delbert Cowsette, Ethan Howell, Sage Rosenfels, Mario Monds, Rashad Bauman, Cliff Russell, Andre Lott, Robert Royal, Reggie Cloman, Jeff Grau, Jeff Scott. And this was just REDSKIN drafts.

So lets look at a complete NFL 3rd round from a few years back, since a lot of your sure-things were in the 3rd round:
1 63 Travis Prentice Browns RB Miami (OH)
2 64 Lloyd Harrison Redskins DB North Carolina State
3 65 Giovanni Carmazzi 49ers QB Hofstra
4 66 Ron Dugans Bengals WR Florida State
5 67 Mark Simoneau Falcons LB Kansas State
6 68 Erron Kinney Titans TE Florida
7 69 Dez White Bears WR Georgia Tech
8 70 Chris Cole Broncos WR Texas A&M
9 71 Darwin Walker Cardinals DT Tennessee
10 72 Kendrick Clancy Steelers DT Mississippi
11 73 Ron Dixon Giants WR Lambuth (TN)
12 74 Steve Warren Packers DT Nebraska
13 75 Chris Redman Ravens QB Louisville
14 76 J.R. Redmond Patriots RB Arizona State
15 77 Hank Poteat Steelers DB Pittsburgh
16 78 Laveranues Coles Jets WR Florida State
17 79 JaJuan Dawson Browns WR Tulane
18 80 Darrell Jackson Seahawks WR Florida
19 81 Reuben Droughns Lions RB Oregon
20 82 Leander Jordan Panthers G Indiana (PA)
21 83 Damion McIntosh Chargers T Kansas State
22 84 Ben Kelly Dolphins DB Colorado
23 85 Gregory Wesley Chiefs DB Arkansas-Pine Bluff
24 86 Jeff Ulbrich 49ers LB Hawaii
25 87 Dustin Lyman Bears LB Wake Forest
26 88 Doug Chapman Vikings RB Marshall
27 89 Corey Moore Bills LB Virginia Tech
28 90 Nate Webster Buccaneers LB Miami (FL)
29 91 David Macklin Colts DB Penn State
30 92 T.J. Slaughter Jaguars LB Southern Mississippi
31 93 Byron Frisch Titans DE Brigham Young
32 94 John St. Clair

Which half of that list provides the answers for their teams? Pick the second and third rounds from several seasons 3 or more years back (enough time to perform), and you will see that this extremely low success rate is consistent. It just ain't that easy to predict who is going to make it. Couch, McNabb and Akili Smith were picked ahead of Culpepper. Hell, Milt Plum and Ronnie Knox were drafted way ahead of Jurgy (4th round). There are massive numbers of examples.
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Old 07-22-2004, 10:29 PM   #24
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Take a look at THIS much longer list of ONLY REDSKIN draftees from the SIX (not 15) years ending 2002 that did NOT perform: Greg Jones, Jamel Williams... Michael Moore...
Michael Moore.. so that's why he's so pissed off. I wouldn't say that bauman is out yet, though he clearly seems more fit for backup duty...
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Old 07-22-2004, 10:54 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Ramseyfan
Gibbs appears to have a lot of faith in coach Williamsí defensive scheme and ability to compensate for holes on defense. Unfortunately, I think Williamsí ability to compensate for such holes is VASTLY overrated. Williams had some awesome personnel last year and that is the main reason why the defense was rated #2 in the league. Does anyone remember that in 2002, the Bills offense was a powerhouse but the defense stank? Where was Williamsí genius then?
well its not we can fault him that they signed sam adams and takeo spikes last year. even with our weakness on the d-line, I still believe our defense is more talented than the group Williams coached last year so why wouldn't he be able to have similar results. plus other than adams, most of us probably couldn't name anyone on buffalo's d-line last year w/o looking it up,lol, but he still got them to produce as a collective unit with the rest of the defense to perform tremendously well. pretty much all he had last year was adams, spikes, and milloy.
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Old 07-22-2004, 10:59 PM   #26
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Regarding his contract, the key element is not the total dollar figure of the contract but the way it is structured. The way you compared it to Bulger is not the way a capologist would look at it.
Plus wasn't bulger a restricted fa and would have required giving up a 1st and 3rd pick?
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Old 07-22-2004, 11:08 PM   #27
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WOW!!!! This one is WAY out there. Go through any season since the NFL started, and list 50% of the drafted players that YOU think lived up to their billing. You will have a tough time getting to 20%!!!

Easy Hogskin, relax, this is a friendly discussion.

The bottom line is you appear to disagree with me as to how to build a solid franchise. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe in building a team via the draft whereas you prefer to do so in free agency.

I think that the teams that have been solid in recent years are those teams that have the ability to draft well (i.e. the Patriots, Eagles and Ravens). The teams like the 'Skins of 2000 do not tend to last, cost a lot of money, and underperform. It's interesting, if not telling, that teams like the Patriots hoard draft picks while the 'Skins give them away.

Andy Reid says that he pays for the future and not the past. Danny Snyder seems to pay for the past and not the future (although that might be changing). If you draft well, as the 'Skins have recently when they have picks, you build a solid base. Look at our recent drafts and for every disappointment, we will find a hidden gem. Don't look at just one round (i.e. the third), look at every round. Also, don't expect to always get a Pro-Bowler in the 5th, 6th, and 7th rounds.

I think we've done a damn good job of drafting in the high rounds in the past decade and done a good job of getting good values from the mid-rounds whereas the majority of the free agents Dan Snyder has signed have been disappointments.

Also, if you look back at my proposed draft picks, I did not even talk about rounds 4-7, I only spoke about rounds 1-3 with only one of my proposed picks in the 3rd round. So how is it that you are saying that I talked about a bunch of sure-thing third rounders?

We have a pretty solid history of drafting well, so let's play to our strengths and build through the draft. Our track record for free agent acquisitions is much worse. Free agency should be used to add a few players who push you over the top, not to rebuild an entire roster. This is the NFL were talking about not Madden 2005, you can't simply disable the salary cap when it is convenient.

So with all this in mind, I have a few friendly questions for you (I did not mean for that sentence to sound obnoxious).

1. Of our first round picks of the last few years, who has been a bust or disappointment?

2. Of our second round picks from the last few years, who has been a bust or disappointment?

3. Of our major free agency acquisitions, who have been busts and who have been great bargains?

3. Do you think that we have drafted or handled free agency better since Dan Snyder has been here? [B]
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Old 07-22-2004, 11:13 PM   #28
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We have a pretty solid history of drafting well, so let's play to our strengths and build through the draft. Our track record for free agent acquisitions is much worse.
coles, hall, morton, portis, washington, barrow, etc, etc, etc

its harder to screw up in the draft when you have 20 scouts and 2 picks too

yeah yeah, his first years sucked, he still overpays... but i think our last two offseasons have been pretty solid overall.
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Old 07-22-2004, 11:14 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by skinsfanthru&thru
well its not we can fault him that they signed sam adams and takeo spikes last year. even with our weakness on the d-line, I still believe our defense is more talented than the group Williams coached last year so why wouldn't he be able to have similar results. plus other than adams, most of us probably couldn't name anyone on buffalo's d-line last year w/o looking it up,lol, but he still got them to produce as a collective unit with the rest of the defense to perform tremendously well. pretty much all he had last year was adams, spikes, and milloy.
Pat Williams and Sam Adams are the only two guys on the Bills' dline that I can name without looking on Madden... But Pat Williams is pretty damn good and so is Sam Adams.

I think Greg Williams will improve our defense dramatically, but I don't think any coaching can mask the gaping hole we have up front. I didn't mean to imply that Williams isn't a good coach. I just think people are being too optimistic in thinking that he can make offenses forget that we have no front four.
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Old 07-22-2004, 11:20 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by That Guy
coles, hall, morton, portis, washington, barrow, etc, etc, etc

its harder to screw up in the draft when you have 20 scouts and 2 picks too

yeah yeah, his first years sucked, he still overpays... but i think our last two offseasons have been pretty solid overall.

Last year's free agent pickups were very good (perhaps with the exceptions of Upshaw, Canidate, and Fiore). But last year was the first year in which I think Snyder paid for the future and not the past. I tried to articulate my belief that the Danny Snyder of 2000 might be dead by saying that he might be changing.

But, overall, since 1999, when Snyder bought the franchise, our drafts have been enormously cheaper and more fruitful than our free agency shopping sprees.

Portis and Washington are two great additions and Brunell will be very productive for two to three years. Springs and Griffin are worthwhile risks, but risks nonetheless as Springs has a bad history of injuries and Griffin appears to have underperformed the last few years. We overpaid for Griffin as well. Barrow and Daniels should be good for a year or two, but their age will catch up with them. So, for me at least, the jury is out on our free agent pickups of 2004 (even if one could argue that Portis alone makes the offseason great).

Last edited by Sheriff Gonna Getcha; 07-23-2004 at 12:04 AM.
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