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Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?

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Old 08-07-2007, 01:00 AM   #106
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Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?

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Originally Posted by wilsowilso View Post
You might have just set a classic debate back to the dark ages with that kind of cutting edge assessment. Not really.


<resists urge to repeat last 6 posts>
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Old 08-07-2007, 01:15 AM   #107
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Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?

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Originally Posted by wilsowilso View Post
We spent 500 posts doing the Brady V. Manning thing so that's no good. I think you are right that experienced college QB's make the best prospects. Never said otherwise.

Now to the last point that all QB's improve upon arriving in the NFL. I'm not going to use stats and I know this might offend your sensibilities, but I just don't see how this idea that ALL qb's improve can be gauged by use of stats. I would say that reaching the NFL can easily become the apex of a quarterbacks career in terms of growth and development. Many quarterbacks do not improve at all upon reaching the professional level. Instead they are short circuited by the transition to the pro ranks. The complex schemes on both sides of the ball change the whole dynamic in which a young signal caller sees the football field. You are learning a new language. You have intense pressure coming from the fact that the speed of the game is far greater than anything you have ever experienced and of course you are now trying to make a living as an athlete. Many many many quarterbacks can not handle it. They step on the field as a pro and they know. I am not a pro quarterback. I want my mommy. They never make it back. It is an immediate regression in their growth and development and it happens all the time. You say ALL Qb's improve. I say the don't.
Alright, fair enough, but do you have an example of someone who fell victim to the phenemon that you suggest. Someone who not only was bad to begin with, but clearly never improved (of course assuming that the career was long enough to improve?)

And assuming that you do have an example, what similarities does this example share with Brady Quinn that makes you think you have a "poor man's Plummer" on your hands?

After all, Quinn was the most experienced college QB in the draft (save Kolb). You just agreed that that was a primarily desirable quality.


-EDIT-

Ben Roethlisberger would be an example of someone who has regressed during his pro career. However, to claim that Roethlisberger peaked at age 22, (which supports the anti-Quinn argument) you would have to be reasonably certain that he will continue to regress until hes out of the league in a few years. I believe Roethlisberger will definately improve this year, and that hes still at least 4-5 years away from his peak.

Last edited by GTripp0012; 08-07-2007 at 01:27 AM. Reason: Roethlisberger bit
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Old 08-07-2007, 01:25 AM   #108
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Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?

How about Cade McNown?
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Old 08-07-2007, 01:33 AM   #109
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Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?

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How about Cade McNown?
I think I would be justified in saying that McNown improved (from year one to two), and would have continued to improve as a QB had he been allowed to play more. Not that getting rid of him was a bad decision...

Cade McNown statistics - pro-football-reference.com


McNown did have terrible fundamentals, and being from Chicago, the first NFL game I ever went to was a battle between McNown's Bears and Ditka's Saints in 2000.

I am near 100% certain that McNown would have gotten better if given more time. But you are right Smoot, his 2nd season looks a lot like his first. If you look close, you can see a small step foward in completion %, but thats about it.

Even if I'm generous and say "All QBs not named Cade McNown will improve", I'm not sure how we could parellel that to Quinn.

I honestly don't think Cade McNown peaked at 22 though. Since he didn't play past age 23, its really an inconclusive argument at best. I always thought the Bears gave him a quick hook anyway, I mean, you invested a 1st round pick in the guy, doesn't he get more than second season to prove himself?
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Old 08-07-2007, 01:50 AM   #110
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Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?

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I think Brady Quinn reminds me of Jake Plummer because of his athleticism and his swagger. Whenever Brady Quinn is surrounded by inferior talent like you say he had at ND I just don't think that he can make up the difference. At times Plummer showed that he could guide an inferior team to victory. The very good to great pro QB's can do exactly that on a regular basis. I guess calling him Jake Plummer Light was too harsh. Let's just call him Jake Plummer Like in my book.
So you were saying that he reminds you of Jake Plummer, not that he will actually play like Jake Plummer?

Brady Quinn is a much better QB prospect than Plummer was though. Plummer wasn't a bad prospect, but he was below average.

I don't know too many QBs who can consistently guide an inferior team to victory. Your boy Tom Brady couldn't, Carson Palmer didn't, Vince Young did but only in college when he was athletically superior to everyone on the field. Peyton Manning...maybe, but even he couldn't consistently beat a superior team.

If you apply the same standard you are putting on Quinn to every prospective NFL QB, that he has to beat superior teams, I don't think you'd find a good one. Seemingly you not only have unrealistic expectations for Quinn, but a lot of other QBs, assuming no bias.

But I guess thats just my opinion of the situation.
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Old 08-07-2007, 01:56 AM   #111
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Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?

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Heath Shuler is my example. He showed up in the pros and the high expectations and different skill sets that he thought he had mastered didn't really exist. His inability to meet basic read and react requirements was completely foreign to him and it gave him an extra large bitch slap the second he arrived in Washington. He got his fragile football pscyhe knocked loose and never recovered. He was in fact regressing in his development as a QB every day he played as a pro because in a sense he was just treading water trying to stay afloat.
Heath Shuler statistics - pro-football-reference.com

Shuler was every bit as bad as you say, but even he did improve while in the NFL. He completed a pathetic 45% his rookie year, but then managed a Vick-esque 52% his sophomore year. Obviously he did not have the mental skill set to succeed at the NFL level, but he did learn on the same curve that all the other QBs of his era did. It just didn't matter in his case because he was so horrible.

Shuler was a bad NFL prospect anyway you slice it. But it can't be said that he couldn't get any better after age 22. He could and did improve beyond his rookie year, and then his career was cut short...because he still sucked.
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Old 08-07-2007, 02:02 AM   #112
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Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?

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A really inferior team is another story and like you said even a great QB can't put that kind of burden on his shoulders on a consistent basis. I'm talking about teams that are maybe 5% to 10% inferior. I honestly think great QB's can make that up every single day that they step on the field.
Oh, and I'm in total agreement.

When theres a small gap in talent between two teams excluding the QB, then a great QB (inferior team) should be able to beat a bad QB (superior team) a majority of time.

But think about it: if you are looking at the total package, QBs and all, is the team with the great QB really inferior? Probably not. If the gap in QB skill is big enough, then they probably have the better team.

I think you are making it sound like that you have a football team...and then you have your quarterback variable. Of course, the QB is part of the football team, and you really can't analyze the accomplishments of the team without including the QB, and vice versa.
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Old 08-07-2007, 02:08 AM   #113
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Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?

What about Tony Romo folks? He's going to be a legend I hear.
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Old 08-07-2007, 02:13 AM   #114
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Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?

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What about Tony Romo folks? He's going to be a legend I hear.
I actually don't think hes very good. At all.

Romo has improved a lot through practicing with the Cowboys and learning from the vets in front of him all that time. He has improved a great deal since he entered the league I believe.

But I wouldn't be shocked if 2006 was his best season as a pro. Not because he's reached his peak yet, but because now defenses have film on him, and success won't come nearly as easily for the guy. I think the next 2-3 years are going to be very hard on Romo and the 'Boys and if Jerry Jones has the patience to live through his struggles, he may come out with a decent QB in 2009.

But for Romo, the honeymoon is over, and has been since like Week 15 of last season.
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Old 08-07-2007, 02:22 AM   #115
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Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?

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I actually don't think hes very good. At all.

Romo has improved a lot through practicing with the Cowboys and learning from the vets in front of him all that time. He has improved a great deal since he entered the league I believe.

But I wouldn't be shocked if 2006 was his best season as a pro. Not because he's reached his peak yet, but because now defenses have film on him, and success won't come nearly as easily for the guy. I think the next 2-3 years are going to be very hard on Romo and the 'Boys and if Jerry Jones has the patience to live through his struggles, he may come out with a decent QB in 2009.

But for Romo, the honeymoon is over, and has been since like Week 15 of last season.

While I was joking with the bit about legend, I do think Romo is a good QB. I've seen quite a bit of Matt Hasselbeck (can't be avoided) and Romo plays like him. He does a great job on the bootlegs and he knows when to throw it away. He also seems to throw the ball pretty well though he got careless with it towards the end of the season. If the Boy's running game doesn't get going I think he might have a tough time but that's about it. It pains me to say this but he's a good QB and probably will be until both Glen and TO lose a step.

Time will tell if he is any good.
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Old 08-07-2007, 02:27 AM   #116
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Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?

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While I was joking with the bit about legend, I do think Romo is a good QB. I've seen quite a bit of Matt Hasselbeck (can't be avoided) and Romo plays like him. He does a great job on the bootlegs and he knows when to throw it away. He also seems to throw the ball pretty well though he got careless with it towards the end of the season. If the Boy's running game doesn't get going I think he might have a tough time but that's about it. It pains me to say this but he's a good QB and probably will be until both Glen and TO lose a step.

Time will tell if he is any good.
It's hard to get a projection on Romo with any confidence. Dude was undrafted so we don't learn anything from his college days, and all we have is 12 games of him to date, the first 8 he played lights out and the last 4 he was borderline awful.

The similarities with Hasselbeck are there but it only takes a few differences to send them to opposite sides of the NFL QB spectrum.

And to echo, indeed only time will tell for sure. My money's on a regression this year.
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Old 08-07-2007, 02:30 AM   #117
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Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?

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My point is that even though the stats did improve he was already broken mentally. Dosn't matter necessarily if it happens to an elite prospect or an undrafted free agent. Once your mind says I'm not confident anymore it's very hard to fight back. Not saying it doesn't happen. Shuler was broken and therefore was actually much much worse than where he was just before he came to that realization in the first place.
Uhhh...ok? Not sure that you or I should be playing Shuler's psychatrist here. He just wasn't very good at football. That's not a mental condition, that just throws him in with 99% of the population.

I'm sure being horrible does a lot to break ones confidence, but this hardly means he peaked at age 22.

And how can we be sure that Quinn will suffer the same fate?
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Old 08-07-2007, 02:32 AM   #118
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Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?

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It's hard to get a projection on Romo with any confidence. Dude was undrafted so we don't learn anything from his college days, and all we have is 12 games of him to date, the first 8 he played lights out and the last 4 he was borderline awful.

The similarities with Hasselbeck are there but it only takes a few differences to send them to opposite sides of the NFL QB spectrum.

And to echo, indeed only time will tell for sure. My money's on a regression this year.
We'll just have to see but if it came down to Romo and Eli, let it be known that I would take Romo...lol.
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Old 08-07-2007, 02:33 AM   #119
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Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?

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We'll just have to see but if it came down to Romo and Eli, let it be known that I would take Romo...lol.
I'd take Eli.

And no, I would not put a smile on and act like I enjoyed it.
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Old 08-07-2007, 02:43 AM   #120
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Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?

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Shuler was a very good football player until he had to make the giant transition to the NFL. Not saying Quinn will suffer same fate. That would almost be impossible to match that kind of meltdown, but make no mistake the NFL makes rookie QB's meltdown right from the start on a regular basis.
I really don't think Shuler had a meltdown, I just don't think that he was ever a very good NFL prospect.

Remember, Shuler got selected in an era where the first round QB was not an every year thing. So scouts really had no idea that good college QBs aren't always good pro QB's.

Now we know that. Shuler was the first QB in a long line of college studs who didnt have the mental skill set to be successful at QB in the NFL. Back in 93, very few teams had successful QBs in general. Nowadays, pretty much every team has one somewhere on their roster (even Oakland now!).

Still, Shuler hit the league as a historically bad rookie, and left it as a still pretty bad 4 year player, but with experience to boot. He was a better QB when he left the league than when he entered it. Had some sadistic team picked him up and kept starting him, he likely would have improved steadily for another three years. He just never would have been good.

All QBs improve when exposed to NFL experience and Shuler is no exception. It's just that not all NFL QBs will ever been any good, despite improvement. If you are bad, you're bad.
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