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Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

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Old 12-06-2007, 11:27 AM   #46
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Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

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Originally Posted by BrunellMVP? View Post
while the coaches can't really be held accountable for injuries (though some suggest they should be, to a degree) I would argue that dead cap space spent on players on Gibbs' wish list aren't helping the situation...

I also do not believe that on an individual level we are less talented than the Bucs and Phili. The Packers are good, but i think they are just playing great as a team, less an individual thing...we have more talent.
the giants have talent, and I'd probably put us on even level with them talent wise..they have better D-lineman for sure though.
I agree with you on this one. I think our talent level is better than both the Bucs and Philly. And not not that far behind, if at all, the Packers and the Giants.
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:28 AM   #47
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Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

IF Gibbs won't stop whacking the knees of our top players when they're not looking, throwing thumbtacks in the shower before Santana Moss gets in and putting butter on Campbell's warm-up footballs, then yes, he should be fired.
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:29 AM   #48
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Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

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No you didn't. And I really don't think we "bash" players nearly enough. We don't even "bash" the other coaches. But hey, it is what it is. I hope to one day be as successful as Gibbs has been in his career so everyone can try to knock me down as well.
What is the equivilant in your business of winning 3 Lombardis and (is it?) 3 cups?
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:31 AM   #49
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Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

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What is the equivilant in your business of winning 3 Lombardis and (is it?) 3 cups?
I have no idea
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:32 AM   #50
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Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

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I have no idea
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:33 AM   #51
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Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

Early in his 2nd tenure, Gibbs' certainly made a bunch of personnel mistakes...and then he made some critical ones in the 2006 offseason, all of which led to the team lacking depth.

When I say "talent" I don't mean like combine measurables. I mean, total product based on the complete body of work from each team this year based on who they played. My fault on the confusion there, I could have been more clear.

The only positions we really have Philly at is quarterback, and probably linebacker. I'm not sure we have Tampa anywhere.

And then the other issue is of course the first half of this season we were playing with an entire quality of defensive talent different from what we are playing with now. Rogers and Taylor, Griffin was healthy and dominating, but has been slowed, and Montgomery has definately hit the hypothetical wall that comes with starting over a long season. All this has led to a massive regression in the middle of the field and on the edges, and basically we can't stop the run or the short passes, and recently we've had trouble making big plays.

Now we are playing with last year's defense and an offense that is well behind where it was in the Brunell-era (not that quarterback play is to blame for it. we've gotten pretty consistent QB play in the last 3 years). The running game is just so horrible, and Randy Thomas' return is just going to take Fabini off the field, who was doing a good job.
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:36 AM   #52
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Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

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Ben Roethlisberger (4th season), Peyton Manning (5th season), Tony Romo (5th season), Drew Brees (6th season), all flourished under new coaching, but I see your point. My list of guys are considerably older than your list of guys.

Seems like there is something there that unestablished great QB prospects regress in a new offense in the short term, but in the long term they seem to be just fine.
I'm not taking issue with your post, just building from it because it made me think a bit.

- Roethlisberger (Good point, especially with his struggles last season, but he had already won a Super Bowl)
- Manning (already had been to multiple Pro Bowls, well established)
- Romo (I hate that he is the exception to all these things, but after watching him play a little more now I actually kind of think that he is going to return to the pack since I've seen him make some really bad throws that still get completed, but we'll put him aside)
- Drew Brees (this is the one I want to pick up a bit below)

Brees is a different case since he changed teams and was a pretty big FA signing for NO and they were going to ride with him so long as he was healthy. By the time he signed there he'd throw for 3,000 yards three times and had made at least one Pro Bowl. I'd like to back up for a second, though, and look at Brees between his second and third seasons.

In 2002 Brees had numbers that probably look pretty similar to those Jason will end up posting this season (60.8%, 3,284 yds, 17 tds, 16 ints, 76.9 rtg). 2002 was also the first year that Marty was the coach in SD. The next season Brees did not play very well (57.6%, 2,108, 11 tds, 15 ints, 67.5 rtg). That year the Chargers drafted Eli and then moved him in that deal for Phillip Rivers. Now, if the team had also fired Marty and moved in a new direction totally, what would have become of Brees? Of course, Rivers didn't help himself by holding out for the entire training camp and thus allowing Brees to claim the job, but I also wonder if another coaching staff that had not seen Brees perform in 2002, would have stuck with him through 2003 (and A.J. Smith basically bailed on him anyway with Rivers, who was his guy, while Marty seeming stayed behind Brees). As it turned out, in 2004 Brees posted his best numbers to that point (65.5%, 3,159, 27 tds, 7 ints, 104.8 rtg) and made his first Pro Bowl, but what if...

Your point that "Seems like there is something there that unestablished great QB prospects regress in a new offense in the short term, but in the long term they seem to be just fine" is well taken. The larger point, though, is that often times when you get a new coach the QB isn't given the opportunity to get to the point of being 'just fine' because the team moves on and fails to realize that the likely downturn in production is probably a product of having to learn a new offensive system and deal with a new coaching staff.

Just some thoughts.
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:41 AM   #53
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Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

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Early in his 2nd tenure, Gibbs' certainly made a bunch of personnel mistakes...and then he made some critical ones in the 2006 offseason, all of which led to the team lacking depth.

When I say "talent" I don't mean like combine measurables. I mean, total product based on the complete body of work from each team this year based on who they played. My fault on the confusion there, I could have been more clear.

The only positions we really have Philly at is quarterback, and probably linebacker. I'm not sure we have Tampa anywhere.

And then the other issue is of course the first half of this season we were playing with an entire quality of defensive talent different from what we are playing with now. Rogers and Taylor, Griffin was healthy and dominating, but has been slowed, and Montgomery has definately hit the hypothetical wall that comes with starting over a long season. All this has led to a massive regression in the middle of the field and on the edges, and basically we can't stop the run or the short passes, and recently we've had trouble making big plays.

Now we are playing with last year's defense and an offense that is well behind where it was in the Brunell-era (not that quarterback play is to blame for it. we've gotten pretty consistent QB play in the last 3 years). The running game is just so horrible, and Randy Thomas' return is just going to take Fabini off the field, who was doing a good job.
Tampa? Sure Campbell is better than Gradkowski. Well, at least that's who played against us. And Tampa is down to, what, their third running back. Point being, they too have injuries to cope with. Outside of Galloway, who's the real recieving threat down there? You'd be grasping at straws to say they're more talented at than we are at TE and WR.

See, the real question really isn't who's more talented anyway. It's who get's more production out of what they have?
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Old 12-06-2007, 12:16 PM   #54
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Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

Before anyone, including the Danny, evaluates Gibbs II, you must differentiate between his two stints. In his first, he was just head coach. Now, he is head coach/team prez., a role he has never done before in football.

When I look at Gibbs II I would sum it up as:

1) clearly not the HOF coach of past, mainly due to clock mgmt & game time decisions, but has brought success w/the playoffs in 05.

2) As a team pres. & talent evaluator; Gibbs has laid the foundation for a decent team & seems to have impacted the Danny in some ways. We have a future qb & some youth on defense. Obviously there are holes to fill. On the other hand under Gibbs some terrible personel/salary cap decisions were made.

Is this Gibbs' learning curve or is this something beyond his control that he's willing (or under contract obligated) to take the heat for? Who is repsonsible for AA, B Loyd & the very notion that we could buy some free agents & get to the super bowl?

It seems Gibbs, based on his past & what's happened in Gibbs II, has always believed in free agency as a means of building a team. However, I'm inclined to believe that he's learned to be cautious w/this approach in today's game. Too bad it took 3 years to learn, but I believe he can leave the team w/a philosophical direction to build on.

In sum, Gibbs is not the coach he once was but can still win. He earns a solid C at best at this point as team president. In all fairness to his legacy, this was a new job for him & he took over a tough one w/the Danny & Vinny used to doing it Danny's way.

He deserves criticism but he also deserves another year & the chance to transition this team into the future. MUch like Parcells did in Dallas, we may see Gibbs' success as team president come after he's retired. For now, give all your support to Joe Gibbs!
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Old 12-06-2007, 12:21 PM   #55
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Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

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Tampa? Sure Campbell is better than Gradkowski. Well, at least that's who played against us. And Tampa is down to, what, their third running back. Point being, they too have injuries to cope with. Outside of Galloway, who's the real recieving threat down there? You'd be grasping at straws to say they're more talented at than we are at TE and WR.

See, the real question really isn't who's more talented anyway. It's who get's more production out of what they have?
TE...no. WR, yes they are.

To me, talent and production are one in the same. I use the words interchanably. After all, it doesn't matter how much physical skill you have, your football SKILL will never exceed your production.
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Old 12-06-2007, 12:33 PM   #56
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Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

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Everyone complains about the "last 4 years" Did Joe not take us to the playoffs his second year here? Did he win a playoff game against TB with an old QB? Ok, so we failed last season, this season so far is no better, but if you look at what this team has been through this year, you would understand and yes, I am using injuries as an excuse. I don't know if we'll make the playoffs this year, but I can guarantee you that if Joe comes back next year, they could go all the way. We need a dominant WR, DE, a few backup OL, DB, S. All this can be addressed thru the draft and free agency. Our WR's haven't been effective due to injury, Moss, ARE and Thrash have been injured all year and not been able to produce as they should, OL has been injured and in shambles. Tell me an NFL team with the # of key injuries that we had that would be able to win? The Colts have had some injuries and have struggled but not the # of injuries as us plus they have Peyton Manning. That's my rant.
Here we go again w/05. Gibbs did not win the 05 playoff game with an old qb. The offense didn't even crack 50 yards passing in that game. The defense won the game. Peroid! Again this is a classic case of the HC getting too much credit. And now he is getting too much blame.

Why is it that people around here keep clinging on to 05? I'm not knocking your post but we won a wild card game and that's it. That use to be the standard around here.
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Old 12-06-2007, 12:45 PM   #57
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Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

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Here we go again w/05. Gibbs did not win the 05 playoff game with an old qb. The offense didn't even crack 50 yards passing in that game. The defense won the game. Peroid! Again this is a classic case of the HC getting too much credit. And now he is getting too much blame.

Why is it that people around here keep clinging on to 05? I'm not knocking your post but we won a wild card game and that's it. That use to be the standard around here.
And what did we do the year before 05? Was he not our HC? He runs the whole team, doesn't he? Joe gets bashed when the offense falters but doesn't get credit when his defense wins. Credit goes to the HC as much as the DC and OC.
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Old 12-06-2007, 12:55 PM   #58
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Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

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No you didn't. And I really don't think we "bash" players nearly enough. We don't even "bash" the other coaches. But hey, it is what it is. I hope to one day be as successful as Gibbs has been in his career so everyone can try to knock me down as well.
I'm very surprised that you have missed all of the bashing of players and coaches as much as you post on this site. Its like after every loss and even after some wins the bashing starts. If you look at my post over the past four years I have done nothing but support JG and this team. When everyone was bashing I was thinking positive and hoping that things would change. Those two timeouts did not bother me one bit it was those three running plays when we had not been able to run the ball all day and just needed one first down to win. Gibbs went to the same old plays which if we could go back over the past 3 to 4 years and could see how that jumbo line has performed we could probably have a 20 yard pass that gained more yards than the 30 to 50 time they have run that failing jumbo package. Gibbs has just shown no signs of changing the thing that do not work and keeps doing them over and over again. Then add up all the errors the coaching has done over the years and I just think its time to move on. Like I said if Gibbs stays for another year he has my full support and I would love for him to prove me wrong.
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Old 12-06-2007, 01:10 PM   #59
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Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

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I'm very surprised that you have missed all of the bashing of players and coaches as much as you post on this site. Its like after every loss and even after some wins the bashing starts. If you look at my post over the past four years I have done nothing but support JG and this team. When everyone was bashing I was thinking positive and hoping that things would change. Those two timeouts did not bother me one bit it was those three running plays when we had not been able to run the ball all day and just needed one first down to win. Gibbs went to the same old plays which if we could go back over the past 3 to 4 years and could see how that jumbo line has performed we could probably have a 20 yard pass that gained more yards than the 30 to 50 time they have run that failing jumbo package. Gibbs has just shown no signs of changing the thing that do not work and keeps doing them over and over again. Then add up all the errors the coaching has done over the years and I just think its time to move on. Like I said if Gibbs stays for another year he has my full support and I would love for him to prove me wrong.
Well see, you illustrate my point right there. Does Saunders calls the plays or does he not? As soon as we see a running play, everyone instinctively says "Oh well that's Gibbs handcuffing the team again." But is he even calling the plays there?

I think only person here has even made any mention of the fact that the defense gave up a 30 yard pass right down the middle to set up the game-winning field goal by the Bills. Where's the outcry over that? Where's the outcry over half the offensive line false starting at a critical 4th and 1 (I think that's what it was) in the red zone on the first drive? Things like that, when they are on this site, are usually buried in threads.

Look I'm not saying absolve Gibbs of any blame. I'm just echoing 70Chip's well-founded sentiments that more needs to go the players way. You win as a team, you lose as a team.
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Old 12-06-2007, 01:24 PM   #60
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Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

Gibbs cant be fired. DS wont do it and it would be a PR nightmare for a team that is already pretty heavily morgaged on the fan's goodwill. They will never risk the fan's rath by firing Gibbs.

I used to think Gibbs was going to step aside at the end of the year but now with all the ST stuff and the team doing it November swoon again I realy thank that unfortunately Gibbs will be back to finish out his contract.
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