Warpath  

Home | Forums | Salary Cap Info | Shop | Donate | Stay Connected




Go Back   Warpath > Redskins Forums > Redskins Locker Room


Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

Redskins Locker Room


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-06-2007, 11:32 AM   #46
Playmaker
 
70Chip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Manassas
Age: 44
Posts: 3,048
Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmootSmack View Post
I have no idea
142 Cable Ace Awards.
__________________
This Monkey's Gone to Heaven
70Chip is offline   Reply With Quote

Advertisements
Old 12-06-2007, 11:33 AM   #47
Living Legend
 
GTripp0012's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Evanston, IL
Age: 27
Posts: 15,994
Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

Early in his 2nd tenure, Gibbs' certainly made a bunch of personnel mistakes...and then he made some critical ones in the 2006 offseason, all of which led to the team lacking depth.

When I say "talent" I don't mean like combine measurables. I mean, total product based on the complete body of work from each team this year based on who they played. My fault on the confusion there, I could have been more clear.

The only positions we really have Philly at is quarterback, and probably linebacker. I'm not sure we have Tampa anywhere.

And then the other issue is of course the first half of this season we were playing with an entire quality of defensive talent different from what we are playing with now. Rogers and Taylor, Griffin was healthy and dominating, but has been slowed, and Montgomery has definately hit the hypothetical wall that comes with starting over a long season. All this has led to a massive regression in the middle of the field and on the edges, and basically we can't stop the run or the short passes, and recently we've had trouble making big plays.

Now we are playing with last year's defense and an offense that is well behind where it was in the Brunell-era (not that quarterback play is to blame for it. we've gotten pretty consistent QB play in the last 3 years). The running game is just so horrible, and Randy Thomas' return is just going to take Fabini off the field, who was doing a good job.
__________________
according to a source with knowledge of the situation.
GTripp0012 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 11:36 AM   #48
The Starter
 
SC Skins Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1,555
Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTripp0012 View Post
Ben Roethlisberger (4th season), Peyton Manning (5th season), Tony Romo (5th season), Drew Brees (6th season), all flourished under new coaching, but I see your point. My list of guys are considerably older than your list of guys.

Seems like there is something there that unestablished great QB prospects regress in a new offense in the short term, but in the long term they seem to be just fine.
I'm not taking issue with your post, just building from it because it made me think a bit.

- Roethlisberger (Good point, especially with his struggles last season, but he had already won a Super Bowl)
- Manning (already had been to multiple Pro Bowls, well established)
- Romo (I hate that he is the exception to all these things, but after watching him play a little more now I actually kind of think that he is going to return to the pack since I've seen him make some really bad throws that still get completed, but we'll put him aside)
- Drew Brees (this is the one I want to pick up a bit below)

Brees is a different case since he changed teams and was a pretty big FA signing for NO and they were going to ride with him so long as he was healthy. By the time he signed there he'd throw for 3,000 yards three times and had made at least one Pro Bowl. I'd like to back up for a second, though, and look at Brees between his second and third seasons.

In 2002 Brees had numbers that probably look pretty similar to those Jason will end up posting this season (60.8%, 3,284 yds, 17 tds, 16 ints, 76.9 rtg). 2002 was also the first year that Marty was the coach in SD. The next season Brees did not play very well (57.6%, 2,108, 11 tds, 15 ints, 67.5 rtg). That year the Chargers drafted Eli and then moved him in that deal for Phillip Rivers. Now, if the team had also fired Marty and moved in a new direction totally, what would have become of Brees? Of course, Rivers didn't help himself by holding out for the entire training camp and thus allowing Brees to claim the job, but I also wonder if another coaching staff that had not seen Brees perform in 2002, would have stuck with him through 2003 (and A.J. Smith basically bailed on him anyway with Rivers, who was his guy, while Marty seeming stayed behind Brees). As it turned out, in 2004 Brees posted his best numbers to that point (65.5%, 3,159, 27 tds, 7 ints, 104.8 rtg) and made his first Pro Bowl, but what if...

Your point that "Seems like there is something there that unestablished great QB prospects regress in a new offense in the short term, but in the long term they seem to be just fine" is well taken. The larger point, though, is that often times when you get a new coach the QB isn't given the opportunity to get to the point of being 'just fine' because the team moves on and fails to realize that the likely downturn in production is probably a product of having to learn a new offensive system and deal with a new coaching staff.

Just some thoughts.
__________________
It has taken a long time, but I have finally realized that nothing I say about the Redskins will have any effect upon anything the Redskins do.
SC Skins Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 11:41 AM   #49
MVP
 
12thMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: washington, D.C.
Posts: 11,458
Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTripp0012 View Post
Early in his 2nd tenure, Gibbs' certainly made a bunch of personnel mistakes...and then he made some critical ones in the 2006 offseason, all of which led to the team lacking depth.

When I say "talent" I don't mean like combine measurables. I mean, total product based on the complete body of work from each team this year based on who they played. My fault on the confusion there, I could have been more clear.

The only positions we really have Philly at is quarterback, and probably linebacker. I'm not sure we have Tampa anywhere.

And then the other issue is of course the first half of this season we were playing with an entire quality of defensive talent different from what we are playing with now. Rogers and Taylor, Griffin was healthy and dominating, but has been slowed, and Montgomery has definately hit the hypothetical wall that comes with starting over a long season. All this has led to a massive regression in the middle of the field and on the edges, and basically we can't stop the run or the short passes, and recently we've had trouble making big plays.

Now we are playing with last year's defense and an offense that is well behind where it was in the Brunell-era (not that quarterback play is to blame for it. we've gotten pretty consistent QB play in the last 3 years). The running game is just so horrible, and Randy Thomas' return is just going to take Fabini off the field, who was doing a good job.
Tampa? Sure Campbell is better than Gradkowski. Well, at least that's who played against us. And Tampa is down to, what, their third running back. Point being, they too have injuries to cope with. Outside of Galloway, who's the real recieving threat down there? You'd be grasping at straws to say they're more talented at than we are at TE and WR.

See, the real question really isn't who's more talented anyway. It's who get's more production out of what they have?
12thMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 12:16 PM   #50
Playmaker
 
freddyg12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,540
Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

Before anyone, including the Danny, evaluates Gibbs II, you must differentiate between his two stints. In his first, he was just head coach. Now, he is head coach/team prez., a role he has never done before in football.

When I look at Gibbs II I would sum it up as:

1) clearly not the HOF coach of past, mainly due to clock mgmt & game time decisions, but has brought success w/the playoffs in 05.

2) As a team pres. & talent evaluator; Gibbs has laid the foundation for a decent team & seems to have impacted the Danny in some ways. We have a future qb & some youth on defense. Obviously there are holes to fill. On the other hand under Gibbs some terrible personel/salary cap decisions were made.

Is this Gibbs' learning curve or is this something beyond his control that he's willing (or under contract obligated) to take the heat for? Who is repsonsible for AA, B Loyd & the very notion that we could buy some free agents & get to the super bowl?

It seems Gibbs, based on his past & what's happened in Gibbs II, has always believed in free agency as a means of building a team. However, I'm inclined to believe that he's learned to be cautious w/this approach in today's game. Too bad it took 3 years to learn, but I believe he can leave the team w/a philosophical direction to build on.

In sum, Gibbs is not the coach he once was but can still win. He earns a solid C at best at this point as team president. In all fairness to his legacy, this was a new job for him & he took over a tough one w/the Danny & Vinny used to doing it Danny's way.

He deserves criticism but he also deserves another year & the chance to transition this team into the future. MUch like Parcells did in Dallas, we may see Gibbs' success as team president come after he's retired. For now, give all your support to Joe Gibbs!
freddyg12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 12:21 PM   #51
Living Legend
 
GTripp0012's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Evanston, IL
Age: 27
Posts: 15,994
Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12thMan View Post
Tampa? Sure Campbell is better than Gradkowski. Well, at least that's who played against us. And Tampa is down to, what, their third running back. Point being, they too have injuries to cope with. Outside of Galloway, who's the real recieving threat down there? You'd be grasping at straws to say they're more talented at than we are at TE and WR.

See, the real question really isn't who's more talented anyway. It's who get's more production out of what they have?
TE...no. WR, yes they are.

To me, talent and production are one in the same. I use the words interchanably. After all, it doesn't matter how much physical skill you have, your football SKILL will never exceed your production.
__________________
according to a source with knowledge of the situation.
GTripp0012 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 12:33 PM   #52
MVP
 
skinsfan69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Arlington, VA.
Posts: 10,180
Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SFREDSKIN View Post
Everyone complains about the "last 4 years" Did Joe not take us to the playoffs his second year here? Did he win a playoff game against TB with an old QB? Ok, so we failed last season, this season so far is no better, but if you look at what this team has been through this year, you would understand and yes, I am using injuries as an excuse. I don't know if we'll make the playoffs this year, but I can guarantee you that if Joe comes back next year, they could go all the way. We need a dominant WR, DE, a few backup OL, DB, S. All this can be addressed thru the draft and free agency. Our WR's haven't been effective due to injury, Moss, ARE and Thrash have been injured all year and not been able to produce as they should, OL has been injured and in shambles. Tell me an NFL team with the # of key injuries that we had that would be able to win? The Colts have had some injuries and have struggled but not the # of injuries as us plus they have Peyton Manning. That's my rant.
Here we go again w/05. Gibbs did not win the 05 playoff game with an old qb. The offense didn't even crack 50 yards passing in that game. The defense won the game. Peroid! Again this is a classic case of the HC getting too much credit. And now he is getting too much blame.

Why is it that people around here keep clinging on to 05? I'm not knocking your post but we won a wild card game and that's it. That use to be the standard around here.
skinsfan69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 12:45 PM   #53
Franchise Player
 
SFREDSKIN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pacifica, CA
Posts: 8,262
Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skinsfan69 View Post
Here we go again w/05. Gibbs did not win the 05 playoff game with an old qb. The offense didn't even crack 50 yards passing in that game. The defense won the game. Peroid! Again this is a classic case of the HC getting too much credit. And now he is getting too much blame.

Why is it that people around here keep clinging on to 05? I'm not knocking your post but we won a wild card game and that's it. That use to be the standard around here.
And what did we do the year before 05? Was he not our HC? He runs the whole team, doesn't he? Joe gets bashed when the offense falters but doesn't get credit when his defense wins. Credit goes to the HC as much as the DC and OC.
SFREDSKIN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 01:10 PM   #54
Uncle Phil
 
SmootSmack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 45,119
Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

Quote:
Originally Posted by firstdown View Post
I'm very surprised that you have missed all of the bashing of players and coaches as much as you post on this site. Its like after every loss and even after some wins the bashing starts. If you look at my post over the past four years I have done nothing but support JG and this team. When everyone was bashing I was thinking positive and hoping that things would change. Those two timeouts did not bother me one bit it was those three running plays when we had not been able to run the ball all day and just needed one first down to win. Gibbs went to the same old plays which if we could go back over the past 3 to 4 years and could see how that jumbo line has performed we could probably have a 20 yard pass that gained more yards than the 30 to 50 time they have run that failing jumbo package. Gibbs has just shown no signs of changing the thing that do not work and keeps doing them over and over again. Then add up all the errors the coaching has done over the years and I just think its time to move on. Like I said if Gibbs stays for another year he has my full support and I would love for him to prove me wrong.
Well see, you illustrate my point right there. Does Saunders calls the plays or does he not? As soon as we see a running play, everyone instinctively says "Oh well that's Gibbs handcuffing the team again." But is he even calling the plays there?

I think only person here has even made any mention of the fact that the defense gave up a 30 yard pass right down the middle to set up the game-winning field goal by the Bills. Where's the outcry over that? Where's the outcry over half the offensive line false starting at a critical 4th and 1 (I think that's what it was) in the red zone on the first drive? Things like that, when they are on this site, are usually buried in threads.

Look I'm not saying absolve Gibbs of any blame. I'm just echoing 70Chip's well-founded sentiments that more needs to go the players way. You win as a team, you lose as a team.
__________________
You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You
SmootSmack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 01:24 PM   #55
Playmaker
 
irish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,757
Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

Gibbs cant be fired. DS wont do it and it would be a PR nightmare for a team that is already pretty heavily morgaged on the fan's goodwill. They will never risk the fan's rath by firing Gibbs.

I used to think Gibbs was going to step aside at the end of the year but now with all the ST stuff and the team doing it November swoon again I realy thank that unfortunately Gibbs will be back to finish out his contract.
irish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 01:24 PM   #56
Impact Rookie
 
BrunellMVP?'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 726
Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

Take a look at my name...does anyone here think I've not been bashing players, who in my eyes, are grossly underperforming? If I knew how to change it, I'd have something on hear about B. Lloyd. Trust me, I'm certainly not one to give players the free pass...


Presently, I'm of the opinion that Moss is no longer a premier WR...as far as i'm concerned he's had one good year (2005) and done little thereafter. He's injury prone and no longer explosive for the 80 yard trots down the sideline.

I also believe that Portis is no longer a premier back (bordering on average)- but when I make this comment, people jump down my throat about the line issues (and they are right), except, I believe that Great backs (which is what I'm told Clinton is) should do more than 3.9 yards per carry even with an injured line. Where's his explosiveness? why can't he break a long gain? he's got to lead the NFL in most carries without a TD of 25 yards or more.

I'm frustrated with Jason C. but I think he'll be VERY GOOD soon, so I look the other way.
plus other people are mentioning it.

As far as the D is concerned, I'm EXTREMELY frustrated with the lack of pressure from the D-line. we aren't stepping up and making plays...way too much time...but that is enough venting.
__________________
in writing these daily letters and trying to make them interesting it is always possible that some sentiment may occur which has not received the severe and deliberate scrutiny and reconsideration which should attach to a State Paper.
- Churchill
BrunellMVP? is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 01:30 PM   #57
Playmaker
 
BleedBurgundy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,471
Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrunellMVP? View Post

I also believe that Portis is no longer a premier back (bordering on average)- but when I make this comment, people jump down my throat about the line issues (and they are right), except, I believe that Great backs (which is what I'm told Clinton is) should do more than 3.9 yards per carry even with an injured line. Where's his explosiveness? why can't he break a long gain? he's got to lead the NFL in most carries without a TD of 25 yards or more.
.
What's with CP running so soft this year? It seems like he's caught Jamal Lewis syndrome where he takes a lot of quick little steps at the line and can't get it going. I'd like to see him get back to being the one cut and take off runner that he used to be... (I guess this could all be caused by the line.)
__________________
"All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

Thomas Paine
BleedBurgundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 01:31 PM   #58
Impact Rookie
 
BrunellMVP?'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 726
Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmootSmack View Post
Well see, you illustrate my point right there. Does Saunders calls the plays or does he not? As soon as we see a running play, everyone instinctively says "Oh well that's Gibbs handcuffing the team again." But is he even calling the plays there?

I think only person here has even made any mention of the fact that the defense gave up a 30 yard pass right down the middle to set up the game-winning field goal by the Bills. Where's the outcry over that? Where's the outcry over half the offensive line false starting at a critical 4th and 1 (I think that's what it was) in the red zone on the first drive? Things like that, when they are on this site, are usually buried in threads.

Look I'm not saying absolve Gibbs of any blame. I'm just echoing 70Chip's well-founded sentiments that more needs to go the players way. You win as a team, you lose as a team.
That is part of the problem..who is calling the plays in crunch situations? red zone, forth down, 4th quarter, 2 min drill? the shroud of confusion from the fan perspective is problematic. I personally believe gibbs takes over in the critical situations...otherwise, what does he actually do? he'd be like a bowden at FSU- a figurehead, in which case, why do we care if he's there or not.

That is an excellent point SS, there is def. no excusing the Defense's play...they constantly give up long drives in crunch time too...very frustrating and unacceptable...i think people are more likely to give them a break there bc ST wasn't there...
in my opinion, the Defense is not NEARLY as good as we think...or would like to believe...
__________________
in writing these daily letters and trying to make them interesting it is always possible that some sentiment may occur which has not received the severe and deliberate scrutiny and reconsideration which should attach to a State Paper.
- Churchill
BrunellMVP? is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 01:39 PM   #59
Impact Rookie
 
BrunellMVP?'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 726
Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy View Post
What's with CP running so soft this year? It seems like he's caught Jamal Lewis syndrome where he takes a lot of quick little steps at the line and can't get it going. I'd like to see him get back to being the one cut and take off runner that he used to be... (I guess this could all be caused by the line.)
agreed. The line is def. responsible for CP's lack of a 130 yards per game average- but, like i said, in my mind, he should be a lot better than than he is, which is just below or at average. he got 2 yards a carry last week against a weak run defense. If he's like Jamal, i hope next year CP has the same type of rebirth, because nobody is going to take his contract.

Betts must be fuming...no way he knew he was signing on to be a full time backup.
__________________
in writing these daily letters and trying to make them interesting it is always possible that some sentiment may occur which has not received the severe and deliberate scrutiny and reconsideration which should attach to a State Paper.
- Churchill
BrunellMVP? is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 01:44 PM   #60
The Starter
 
redsk1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,351
Re: Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrunellMVP? View Post
That is part of the problem..who is calling the plays in crunch situations? red zone, forth down, 4th quarter, 2 min drill? the shroud of confusion from the fan perspective is problematic. I personally believe gibbs takes over in the critical situations...otherwise, what does he actually do? he'd be like a bowden at FSU- a figurehead, in which case, why do we care if he's there or not.

That is an excellent point SS, there is def. no excusing the Defense's play...they constantly give up long drives in crunch time too...very frustrating and unacceptable...i think people are more likely to give them a break there bc ST wasn't there...
in my opinion, the Defense is not NEARLY as good as we think...or would like to believe...
There is no doubt in my mind that Gibbs has major influence once we get to crunch time and end of the game situations. No doubt.
redsk1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site is not officially affiliated with the Washington Redskins or the NFL.
Page generated in 0.37055 seconds with 9 queries

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0 RC5

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25