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Old 01-09-2008, 12:33 PM   #46
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Re: Chad Johnson?

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Originally Posted by RobH4413 View Post
Chad Johnson

The guy is elite.
Yes he is...but in a system that constantly throws to him. We don't have (as of today anyway) a pass happy offense like the Bengals have. So his numbers would take a huge dive if he came here and everyone would say "where is Chad, we pay him too much money to disappear". Because a lot of people don't understand that if you aren't thrown the ball, you can't make any impact.
Also, we have a slew of positions that are much more important to fill, and someone like Chad would take up ALL the space...cause he's THE BEST...just ask him.
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Old 01-09-2008, 12:43 PM   #47
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Re: Chad Johnson?

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Originally Posted by jsarno View Post
Yes he is...but in a system that constantly throws to him. We don't have (as of today anyway) a pass happy offense like the Bengals have. So his numbers would take a huge dive if he came here and everyone would say "where is Chad, we pay him too much money to disappear". Because a lot of people don't understand that if you aren't thrown the ball, you can't make any impact.
Also, we have a slew of positions that are much more important to fill, and someone like Chad would take up ALL the space...cause he's THE BEST...just ask him.
Good post.

If we want to improve our receiving corps, we are going to have to go get an elite target. However, elite receiving targets cost a lot of money, and rarely if ever live up to their billing. Since signing anything less than an elite receiver will in no way improve our receivers (we go about 4 deep at above average, and Cooley plays the slot receiver anyway), the most intelligent course of action would be to sit on our hands.

Maybe two years down the road, it will become profitable to release Moss, and chase a guy like Larry Fitzgerald in free agency, but for the time being, there's really not a whole lot of intelligent moves that can be made with our wide receivers.
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Old 01-09-2008, 12:50 PM   #48
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Re: Chad Johnson?

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Good post.

If we want to improve our receiving corps, we are going to have to go get an elite target. However, elite receiving targets cost a lot of money, and rarely if ever live up to their billing. Since signing anything less than an elite receiver will in no way improve our receivers (we go about 4 deep at above average, and Cooley plays the slot receiver anyway), the most intelligent course of action would be to sit on our hands.

Maybe two years down the road, it will become profitable to release Moss, and chase a guy like Larry Fitzgerald in free agency, but for the time being, there's really not a whole lot of intelligent moves that can be made with our wide receivers.
exactly.
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:09 PM   #49
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Re: Chad Johnson?

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Originally Posted by jsarno View Post
Yes he is...but in a system that constantly throws to him. We don't have (as of today anyway) a pass happy offense like the Bengals have. So his numbers would take a huge dive if he came here and everyone would say "where is Chad, we pay him too much money to disappear".
I agree his numbers would likely drop (but not a huge dive, IMO) and that people would complain about his $/reception ratio. But, I don't think those are good reasons to stay away from Chad Johnson, or any other top WR.

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Because a lot of people don't understand that if you aren't thrown the ball, you can't make any impact.
Not true. Simply having a guy of CJ's caliber on the field would help Moss, Cooley, ARE, Portis, and anyone else on the field.

Nobody can convince me Houshmandzadeh is more talented than CJ. Houshmandzadeh, while a good WR, is putting up such good numbers because of who is taking coverage away from him.

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Also, we have a slew of positions that are much more important to fill, and someone like Chad would take up ALL the space...cause he's THE BEST...just ask him.
WR is the starting position that needs to be upgraded the most. If Springs leaves and Rogers doesn't look like he'll be ready for the start of the season, then I'd say starting CB becomes the biggest need. But, as things stand today, WR is at the top.
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:48 PM   #50
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Angry Re: Chad Johnson?

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Originally Posted by dgreen View Post
I agree his numbers would likely drop (but not a huge dive, IMO) and that people would complain about his $/reception ratio. But, I don't think those are good reasons to stay away from Chad Johnson, or any other top WR.


Not true. Simply having a guy of CJ's caliber on the field would help Moss, Cooley, ARE, Portis, and anyone else on the field.

Nobody can convince me Houshmandzadeh is more talented than CJ. Houshmandzadeh, while a good WR, is putting up such good numbers because of who is taking coverage away from him.


WR is the starting position that needs to be upgraded the most. If Springs leaves and Rogers doesn't look like he'll be ready for the start of the season, then I'd say starting CB becomes the biggest need. But, as things stand today, WR is at the top.

That is ludicrous. Perhaps moss was a bit disappointing early this season, but he was injured, and BL was certainly a bust. But ARE had a decent year for us, and Caldwell and McCardell both proved to be consistent third and fourth receivers. And who knows? Maybe this Anthony Mix kid will be special.

If you ask me the problems with our passing game began with our O-line. Yes our WR dropped alot of balls early in the season, and that should not be excused, but they settled into a rhythm and started producing consistently from the mid point of the season. Furthermore, if you look at the middle stretch during which we lost most of our games, you'll notice that our QB never had time to sit in the pocket. JC constantly had to shift around and bide his time. This allowed him to take the deep shot only a few times every game, and he overthrew a few too many of those deep shots. Yes the WR's dropped a few they shouldn't have, but if you only have a legitimate chance at catching one homerun ball a game then you're SOL. This may not be a completely analogous example, but Randy Mos couldn't do shit on the Raiders. It doesn't simply take an elite WR to turn a teams passing game around, you need a good QB and good pass protection, not to mention some relief from your running game.

I think with our O-line healthy again next year, we will get better production not only from our WR's but from the Offense as a whole. Little needs to be changed in this Offense, but what is certain is that we need young talented depth in the O-line so that late in the season we have our future starters out there showing us why they were worth the draft picks.

As for the Defense, yes they kept us in a lot of games, and finished 8th overall in the NFL, but there is a glaring problem on our Defense. We get ZERO pressure from our front four. OK that is an exaggeration, but it is certainly a weakness, one that I would contend cost us a few games this year. How many times did we let teams drive down the field late in games and score a winning TD our FG? It seems to me that what happened in those situations is that we brought only a four man rush and dropped everyone else back to prevent the big play. It did stop the big play, but we let the teams methodically drive down the field to score and win, and it is because our front four could not disrupt the QB, plain and simple.

These are our biggest concerns hands down, and as you said our secondary could potentially become a big concern as well. I will give you this, we could certainly use an elite WR. Who Couldn't?!? But there is no way it is our #1 need right now. I will grant you that it will be necessary in the next few years for this team to become a powerhouse, but as far as developing this team into a perennial playoff contender is concerned, we have much more immediate problems.
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:52 PM   #51
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Re: Chad Johnson?

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Originally Posted by WillH View Post
That is ludicrous. Perhaps moss was a bit disappointing early this season, but he was injured, and BL was certainly a bust. But ARE had a decent year for us, and Caldwell and McCardell both proved to be consistent third and fourth receivers. And who knows? Maybe this Anthony Mix kid will be special.

If you ask me the problems with our passing game began with our O-line. Yes our WR dropped alot of balls early in the season, and that should not be excused, but they settled into a rhythm and started producing consistently from the mid point of the season. Furthermore, if you look at the middle stretch during which we lost most of our games, you'll notice that our QB never had time to sit in the pocket. JC constantly had to shift around and bide his time. This allowed him to take the deep shot only a few times every game, and he overthrew a few too many of those deep shots. Yes the WR's dropped a few they shouldn't have, but if you only have a legitimate chance at catching on homerun ball a game then you're SOL. This may not be a completely analogous example, but Randy Mos couldn't do shit on the Raiders. It simply doesn't take an elite WR to turn a teams passing game around, you need a good QB and good pass protection, not to mention some relief from your running game.

I think with our O-line healthy again next year, we will get better production not only from our WR's but from the Offense as a whole. Little needs to be changed in this Offense, but what is certain is that we need young talented depth in the O-line so that late in the season we have our future starters out there showing us why they were worth the draft picks.

As for the Defense, yes they kept us in a lot of games, and finished 8th overall in the NFL, but there is a glaring problem on our Defense. We get ZERO pressure from our front four. OK that is an exaggeration, but it is certainly a weakness, one that I would contend cost us a few games this year. How many times did we let teams drive down the field late in games and score a winning TD our FG? It seems to me that what happened in those situations is that we brought only a four man rush and dropped everyone else back to prevent the big play. It did stop the big play, but we let the teams methodically drive down the field to score and win, and it is because our front four could not disrupt the QB, plain and simple.

These are our biggest concerns hands down, and as you said our secondary could potentially become a big concern as well. I will give you this, we could certainly use an elite WR. Who Couldn't?!? But there is no way it is our #1 need right now. I will grant you that it will be necessary in the next few years for this team to become a powerhouse, but as far as developing this team into a perennial playoff contender is concerned, we have much more immediate problems.
Excellent post.

Just because we were able to mask a lot of the issues on the defensive line with shut down pass coverage doesn't make the pass rush issues get up and leave.

Montgomery, Griffin, and Daniels all play the run pretty well. Carter played the run much better this year. However, Montgomery, and a less than 100% Griffin are total non threats against the passing game. Either we need to accept that and add an elite pass rushing defensive end, or try to improve the pressure our DT's provide.

This DL is not quite as far off as it was last year, but our defense is going to regress a lot if we don't fix the pass rush problem up front.
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Old 01-09-2008, 03:08 PM   #52
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Re: Chad Johnson?

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That is ludicrous. Perhaps moss was a bit disappointing early this season, but he was injured, and BL was certainly a bust. But ARE had a decent year for us, and Caldwell and McCardell both proved to be consistent third and fourth receivers. And who knows? Maybe this Anthony Mix kid will be special.
ARE had a decent year because he was on the field. It doesn't take a special WR to play every down and put up 51-728-1. I like him as a WR3, but he is not an every down guy. Sure, he was an improvement over Lloyd, but who isn't? I doubt if McCardell is back. Caldwell may be back and would be a nice WR4. Mix does a great job on kick coverage, but I would think he'd have played more WR if he was special.

Quote:
If you ask me the problems with our passing game began with our O-line. Yes our WR dropped alot of balls early in the season, and that should not be excused, but they settled into a rhythm and started producing consistently from the mid point of the season. Furthermore, if you look at the middle stretch during which we lost most of our games, you'll notice that our QB never had time to sit in the pocket. JC constantly had to shift around and bide his time. This allowed him to take the deep shot only a few times every game, and he overthrew a few too many of those deep shots. Yes the WR's dropped a few they shouldn't have, but if you only have a legitimate chance at catching one homerun ball a game then you're SOL. This may not be a completely analogous example, but Randy Mos couldn't do shit on the Raiders. It doesn't simply take an elite WR to turn a teams passing game around, you need a good QB and good pass protection, not to mention some relief from your running game.

I think with our O-line healthy again next year, we will get better production not only from our WR's but from the Offense as a whole. Little needs to be changed in this Offense, but what is certain is that we need young talented depth in the O-line so that late in the season we have our future starters out there showing us why they were worth the draft picks.
I agree. The OL drives everything. I just don't think OL depth is as big a need as a starting WR, IF that starting WR is one of the top ones in the league. Depth is what is needed on the OL, not starters. With Heyer playing well at times, we probably have pretty good depth at tackle. Adding depth at guard and center is needed, but that shouldn't eat in to the cap too much, leaving money (if they have it) to spend on a WR. So, I think the OL AND WR can be addressed in the offseason.

Quote:
As for the Defense, yes they kept us in a lot of games, and finished 8th overall in the NFL, but there is a glaring problem on our Defense. We get ZERO pressure from our front four. OK that is an exaggeration, but it is certainly a weakness, one that I would contend cost us a few games this year. How many times did we let teams drive down the field late in games and score a winning TD our FG? It seems to me that what happened in those situations is that we brought only a four man rush and dropped everyone else back to prevent the big play. It did stop the big play, but we let the teams methodically drive down the field to score and win, and it is because our front four could not disrupt the QB, plain and simple.

These are our biggest concerns hands down, and as you said our secondary could potentially become a big concern as well. I will give you this, we could certainly use an elite WR. Who Couldn't?!? But there is no way it is our #1 need right now. I will grant you that it will be necessary in the next few years for this team to become a powerhouse, but as far as developing this team into a perennial playoff contender is concerned, we have much more immediate problems.
Okay, I'd LOVE another DE, too. Jared Allen might be available, but he already received a 4-game suspension and his next would likely be a full year, so he's a risk. Not sure who else is out there.

Bottom line for me is that I think WR is where they need to spend money. I think the other areas (OL depth and DL) can be addressed sufficiently for less money. When it comes to the starting lineup (so that assumes all are healthy and are returning in 2008), I see ARE as the player that is furthest from where I think production from that position should be. (Daniels would be up there, too.)
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Old 01-09-2008, 08:04 PM   #53
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Re: Chad Johnson?

I agree whole heartedly with WillH's last post regarding our priorities at offensive and defensive line.

When JC or TC get time, the likes of Santana, ARE, and Cooley get open. They're running great routes. How many coverage sacks did you see this year? Not very many.

We need some youth at o-line, and someone special on d-line. In fact... We need a few special players to come in and start setting a tone. We can't win in this division without a solid line, and that's where you build your team.

I promise you Santana Moss is good enough to get open and catch footballs when he's healthy. Antwaan Randel El has been the biggest surprise this year... and we've got some young guys (Mike Espy may get some work in again next year) to compete. WR should be far down on our list... (But that doesn't mean I can't daydream about the impact CJ would have on this time when JC has time)
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Old 01-09-2008, 08:50 PM   #54
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Re: Chad Johnson?

NO WAY would i want this guy on our team. havent we learned anything. however although i have no link i have had names like jevon walker, larry fitzgerald, and roy williams being on the trading block. Now Larry or Roy i would not mind, but at what cost?
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Old 01-09-2008, 09:11 PM   #55
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Re: Chad Johnson?

I'd take him any day of the week. He's arguably a top 3 receiver. For the right price of course.
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Old 01-10-2008, 01:07 PM   #56
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Re: Chad Johnson?

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I'd take him any day of the week. He's arguably a top 3 receiver. For the right price of course.
What is the right price in your opinion? Cause he will seek to be the highest paid WR in the NFL...something we can not, and more importantly, SHOULD NOT do.
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Old 01-10-2008, 01:34 PM   #57
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Re: Chad Johnson?

Let's sign CJ to vet min full of incentives.

Seriously though, I'd love to see us snag a big time WR. Sorry but Moss is just injured too much and even when healthy he tends to be streaky. I just don't think he's a true #1.

Imagine a WR group of CJ, Moss, and ARE. I know... I'm totally dreaming.
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Old 01-10-2008, 01:56 PM   #58
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Re: Chad Johnson?

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Let's sign CJ to vet min full of incentives.

Seriously though, I'd love to see us snag a big time WR. Sorry but Moss is just injured too much and even when healthy he tends to be streaky. I just don't think he's a true #1.

Imagine a WR group of CJ, Moss, and ARE. I know... I'm totally dreaming.
The Green Bay game still haunts me. Talk about streaky.

I don't see Chad J. coming here,but it is fun to imagine especially with Campbell's big arm. It would be nice to have an offense teams feared again.
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Old 01-10-2008, 02:01 PM   #59
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Re: Chad Johnson?

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What is the right price in your opinion? Cause he will seek to be the highest paid WR in the NFL...something we can not, and more importantly, SHOULD NOT do.
The only thing that could snag CJ would be something crazy like Santana Moss and a 1st round pick. With our priorities elsewhere... I can't endorse something this extreme.
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Old 01-11-2008, 02:08 AM   #60
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Re: Chad Johnson?

if you've got CJ, moss, cooley, ARE, and portis out there at the same time, who are you going to leave in single coverage?

that'd be a beast 1,2,3,4, help our QB/offense as a whole, etc, etc.

fitz is good, but he's not top 3. boldin is much better than houz, and arizona just passes all day anyways. cinncy had a BAD year and he still got 1400+ yards. he's a true impact player.

besides, moss isn't well known for playing full seasons or keeping his hamstrings under control. CJ is reliable and provides protection when moss is having an off day.
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