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JLC: The Cerrato Era Has Begun

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Old 01-29-2008, 05:18 PM   #1
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JLC: The Cerrato Era Has Begun

Jason La Canfora's most recent blog entry notes something significant that had escaped me ... with his recent promotion, Vinny Cerrato's role and responsibilities are now defined. For years people blamed Vinny for just about every bad decision made at Redskins Park (e.g., trading for Brandon Lloyd and TJ Duckett) and gave him no credit for the good decisions (e.g., drafting guys like Sean Taylor and Chris Cooley and signing free agents like Randy Thomas and Shawn Springs), all without knowing what decisions he made or did not make. Now that Vinny is the "decider," we can start to judge him by a body of work instead of whether he is too close with Dan Snyder.
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Old 01-29-2008, 05:22 PM   #2
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Re: JLC: The Cerrato Era Has Begun

Great! at least now someone is accountable.
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Old 01-29-2008, 05:26 PM   #3
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Re: JLC: The Cerrato Era Has Begun

The thing is, whoever the coaching hire is, we will never be able to fairly grade him on wins and losses. That would be terribly unprofessional, given that the players account for nearly all of the formula that goes in to winning and losing. From the passing, to the running to the kicking and returning, to the stopping of the running and passing, players are close to 100% responsible for the outcome.

But now we finally have a guy who is 100% responsible for the players, and indirectly, his legacy will be defined by how many games he wins and loses.
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Old 01-29-2008, 05:32 PM   #4
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Re: JLC: The Cerrato Era Has Begun

The concerns in JLC's blog entry about the stark differences between west coast QBs and Air Coryell/Gibbs/Saunders QBs are most alarming.

West Coast QBs are known for the quick release and quick feet. Campbell's got a long release. The changing of the guard on offense definitely brings Campbell's future into question. It's way too soon to say Campbell's no longer the franchise QB, but you have to wonder. Will he mesh with the quick-release West Coast offense? Zorn's a great coach, so he's got to have a decent shot at it, but you never know.

I'm also curious to see how guys like Bugel mesh with a west coast offense. These coaches, who are being kept for continuity's sake, have strong beliefs in their offensive philosophies. It remains to be seen how that meshes with the new West Coast approach headed by Zorn. It could be fine as Bugel and company show an ability to adapt, or it could be a complete disaster. Either way, Vinny has to be judged on all of it.
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Old 01-29-2008, 05:36 PM   #5
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Re: JLC: The Cerrato Era Has Begun

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Well if the players are 100% responsible for the outcomes why is everyone so up set with the coaching changes and worried about who our next coach is going to be?
Because it's fun

I don't know, draw your own conclusions.
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Old 01-29-2008, 05:37 PM   #6
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Re: JLC: The Cerrato Era Has Begun

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Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
The concerns in JLC's blog entry about the stark differences between west coast QBs and Air Coryell/Gibbs/Saunders QBs are most alarming.

West Coast QBs are known for the quick release and quick feet. Campbell's got a long release. The changing of the guard on offense definitely brings Campbell's future into question. It's way too soon to say Campbell's no longer the franchise QB, but you have to wonder. Will he mesh with the quick-release West Coast offense? Zorn's a great coach, so he's got to have a decent shot at it, but you never know.

I'm also curious to see how guys like Bugel mesh with a west coast offense. These coaches, who are being kept for continuity's sake, have strong beliefs in their offensive philosophies. It remains to be seen how that meshes with the new West Coast approach headed by Zorn. It could be fine as Bugel and company show an ability to adapt, or it could be a complete disaster. Either way, Vinny has to be judged on all of it.
Has any Quarterback in the last few years acutally had an issue with adapting to the west coast? It's no longer a gimmick offense, it's designed to hit right at the crux of how ball games are won.

And it should take some much needed stress off the OL in the passing game.

A lot of people are making a big stink about all of these changes, but the fundamentals are still exactly the same. Philosophy changes, but that's not really going to be an issue for the players, unless they overthink it.
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Old 01-29-2008, 05:40 PM   #7
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Re: JLC: The Cerrato Era Has Begun

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Originally Posted by GTripp0012 View Post
The thing is, whoever the coaching hire is, we will never be able to fairly grade him on wins and losses. That would be terribly unprofessional, given that the players account for nearly all of the formula that goes in to winning and losing. From the passing, to the running to the kicking and returning, to the stopping of the running and passing, players are close to 100% responsible for the outcome.

But now we finally have a guy who is 100% responsible for the players, and indirectly, his legacy will be defined by how many games he wins and loses.
GTripp, sometimes you say some things that are really smart. And other times you make about as much sense as kidwell.

Coaches are largely responsible. I kind of get what you're saying, you can only gameplan to the talent you have. But if you don't gameplan and let your talent try to win on autopilot, you get your ass handed to you. There's a compounding effect that takes place when superior talent, superior teaching, and superior gameplanning collide.

You make it sound as if the coach is irrelevant.
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Old 01-29-2008, 05:43 PM   #8
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Re: JLC: The Cerrato Era Has Begun

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Originally Posted by GTripp0012 View Post
Has any Quarterback in the last few years acutally had an issue with adapting to the west coast? It's no longer a gimmick offense, it's designed to hit right at the crux of how ball games are won.

And it should take some much needed stress off the OL in the passing game.

A lot of people are making a big stink about all of these changes, but the fundamentals are still exactly the same. Philosophy changes, but that's not really going to be an issue for the players, unless they overthink it.
I can't think of too many teams who have taken a QB coming from a non-West Coast system and tried to morph him to a West Coast QB. Can you think of any?

I mean Tampa chose Garcia. Holmgren grabbed Hasselbeck from Green Bay. Andy Reid developed McNabb from scratch. I can't think of a West Coast team choosing a non West Coast QB. I think there's got to be a reason for that, they're very different systems emphasizing very different skill sets.

Campbell may just translate well to it with the right coaching. But I think you're way off in saying the system won't be an issue.
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Old 01-29-2008, 05:47 PM   #9
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Re: JLC: The Cerrato Era Has Begun

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
The concerns in JLC's blog entry about the stark differences between west coast QBs and Air Coryell/Gibbs/Saunders QBs are most alarming.

West Coast QBs are known for the quick release and quick feet. Campbell's got a long release. The changing of the guard on offense definitely brings Campbell's future into question. It's way too soon to say Campbell's no longer the franchise QB, but you have to wonder. Will he mesh with the quick-release West Coast offense? Zorn's a great coach, so he's got to have a decent shot at it, but you never know.

I'm also curious to see how guys like Bugel mesh with a west coast offense. These coaches, who are being kept for continuity's sake, have strong beliefs in their offensive philosophies. It remains to be seen how that meshes with the new West Coast approach headed by Zorn. It could be fine as Bugel and company show an ability to adapt, or it could be a complete disaster. Either way, Vinny has to be judged on all of it.
The quick release and accuracy on the intermediate passes is certainly something Campbell will have to work on perfecting. But it also helps in the WCO to have a strong arm like Campbell's. While the WCO doesn't incorporate the deep pass too often, it's the perfect offense for the occasional bomb

What I find most interesting is that, while it's true that QBs in that offense tend to be a bit shorter than Campbell, Zorn worked with Matt Hasselbeck who is roughly the same size as Campbell; so he knows what's he working with here.

I personally love the west coast offense. Not sure why exactly, I think it's the quick passes marching down the field and the potential for a big YAC.
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Old 01-29-2008, 05:48 PM   #10
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Re: JLC: The Cerrato Era Has Begun

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Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
GTripp, sometimes you say some things that are really smart. And other times you make about as much sense as kidwell.

Coaches are largely responsible. I kind of get what you're saying, you can only gameplan to the talent you have. But if you don't gameplan and let your talent try to win on autopilot, you get your ass handed to you. There's a compounding effect that takes place when superior talent, superior teaching, and superior gameplanning collide.

You make it sound as if the coach is irrelevant.
Well the assumption is that you have to gameplan, have to adjust, have to have common football sense.

So why is coaching overrated? Because every coach does these things. Fassel does them, Gibbs did them, Mooch does them, Norv does them.

When people say coaching matters, they are in effect talking about the long-term effects of having a coach that always knows more than the opponents coach. Unfortunately, with the easy access of coaching information today, any guy can learn how to coach on gameday. Seriously, it's not hard.

Now, the great coaches will be responsible for leadership techniques, and earning and keeping the respect of his players. If he can not do this, he will lose his job. This is what seperates Jeff Fisher from Cam Cameron. But that is not why the Titans made the playoffs this year and the Dolphins won one game. That was because Tennesssee had the most talented defense in the NFL, and the Dolphins had the least.

The short version: coaching matters. Unless you care nothing about the team than it's gameday performance. Because Coach A does not give a significant advantage to his team over Coach B.

You can't take Mooch out of SF, put him in Detroit and expect to see the team improve without any other major changes. That's pretty much been proven by trial and error over the past decade.
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Old 01-29-2008, 05:49 PM   #11
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Re: JLC: The Cerrato Era Has Begun

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
The concerns in JLC's blog entry about the stark differences between west coast QBs and Air Coryell/Gibbs/Saunders QBs are most alarming.

West Coast QBs are known for the quick release and quick feet. Campbell's got a long release. The changing of the guard on offense definitely brings Campbell's future into question. It's way too soon to say Campbell's no longer the franchise QB, but you have to wonder. Will he mesh with the quick-release West Coast offense? Zorn's a great coach, so he's got to have a decent shot at it, but you never know.

I'm also curious to see how guys like Bugel mesh with a west coast offense. These coaches, who are being kept for continuity's sake, have strong beliefs in their offensive philosophies. It remains to be seen how that meshes with the new West Coast approach headed by Zorn. It could be fine as Bugel and company show an ability to adapt, or it could be a complete disaster. Either way, Vinny has to be judged on all of it.
I totally agree. As soon as I heard about Zorn's west coast O roots, I knew it would be tough for JC, but especially after reading that it's disturbing. How many systems can he learn before he gets really frustrated?

What was more depressing to me was that GW wanted to keep Al on board.
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Old 01-29-2008, 05:52 PM   #12
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Re: JLC: The Cerrato Era Has Begun

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Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
I can't think of too many teams who have taken a QB coming from a non-West Coast system and tried to morph him to a West Coast QB. Can you think of any?

I mean Tampa chose Garcia. Holmgren grabbed Hasselbeck from Green Bay. Andy Reid developed McNabb from scratch. I can't think of a West Coast team choosing a non West Coast QB. I think there's got to be a reason for that, they're very different systems emphasizing very different skill sets.

Campbell may just translate well to it with the right coaching. But I think you're way off in saying the system won't be an issue.
Right off the top of my head I can't think of any. But, and I realize it was college, but there must be a reason Campbell did best playing in a WCO. And I don't believe it's simply because he had Ronnie Brown and Cadillac Williams. And if that is the case, well we have Portis and Betts
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Old 01-29-2008, 05:58 PM   #13
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Re: JLC: The Cerrato Era Has Begun

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Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
I can't think of too many teams who have taken a QB coming from a non-West Coast system and tried to morph him to a West Coast QB. Can you think of any?

I mean Tampa chose Garcia. Holmgren grabbed Hasselbeck from Green Bay. Andy Reid developed McNabb from scratch. I can't think of a West Coast team choosing a non West Coast QB. I think there's got to be a reason for that, they're very different systems emphasizing very different skill sets.

Campbell may just translate well to it with the right coaching. But I think you're way off in saying the system won't be an issue.
System is an issue. Just not one we can ever evaluate due to the impossibility to seperate it from the players themselves.

Off the top of my head:

Rich Gannon (1999)
Brian Griese (2004)
Brad Johnson (2001)
Marc Bulger (2006)
Chad Pennington (2006)
Delhomme, maybe?

The big issue with the WCO is that it usually combines itself with another offensive philosophy. You don't really see an offense that ever does what wikipedia would define as the WCO. Therefore, we can't predict right now if there will be any player struggles, since we don't yet know what if anything is changing.
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Old 01-29-2008, 05:58 PM   #14
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Re: JLC: The Cerrato Era Has Begun

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Originally Posted by GTripp0012 View Post
Well the assumption is that you have to gameplan, have to adjust, have to have common football sense.

So why is coaching overrated? Because every coach does these things. Fassel does them, Gibbs did them, Mooch does them, Norv does them.

When people say coaching matters, they are in effect talking about the long-term effects of having a coach that always knows more than the opponents coach. Unfortunately, with the easy access of coaching information today, any guy can learn how to coach on gameday. Seriously, it's not hard.

Now, the great coaches will be responsible for leadership techniques, and earning and keeping the respect of his players. If he can not do this, he will lose his job. This is what seperates Jeff Fisher from Cam Cameron. But that is not why the Titans made the playoffs this year and the Dolphins won one game. That was because Tennesssee had the most talented defense in the NFL, and the Dolphins had the least.

The short version: coaching matters. Unless you care nothing about the team than it's gameday performance. Because Coach A does not give a significant advantage to his team over Coach B.

You can't take Mooch out of SF, put him in Detroit and expect to see the team improve without any other major changes. That's pretty much been proven by trial and error over the past decade.
I get what you're driving at and to an extent I agree, but I still think you're minimizing the differences in teaching abilities and adaptability between coaches. Some coaches make better strategic adjustments than others do. But whatever. This thread's about Vinny, and certainly we can agree that now Vinny is in position to get judged on everything that happens from this point forward, including the decision to pair Zorn with the existing coaching staff and the existing player personnel.
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Old 01-29-2008, 05:59 PM   #15
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Re: JLC: The Cerrato Era Has Begun

Biggest issue: just because someone says they are a WCO disciple, doesn't mean you know one single thing about their offensive philosophy.
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