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Roy Williams (WR) for a 2nd Round Pick?

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Old 02-25-2008, 01:27 PM   #76
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Re: Roy Williams (WR) for a 2nd Round Pick?

Well while we are at it lets play the devils advocate. Is there any way we can play the sniff test with Ocho? Lets look at how the deal could get done and if there is no possible way then it doesn't pass...right.

What would have to happen to keep Cincy from getting hammered with a 8 mil cap hit and still make the trade and how we would be able to accomodate them? A side from picks to entice them how would we get these teams to listen and give up their WR's?

Could CJ have Cincy design a new contract that would accomplish this or is the old contract set in stone and the only changes to be made will not change the cap hit?

If we are only looking at a WR who could deffinitly step up day one and produce. I would like for us to draft all new young players such as how the Patriots have in the past. Have a faster younger team with low cap but sometimes you need to think outside the box and think that whoever we draft will need to get up to NFL speed and HOPEFULLY be productive which might not be their first yr. Perhaps learning the ropes from some one we trade for.
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Old 02-25-2008, 01:37 PM   #77
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Re: Roy Williams (WR) for a 2nd Round Pick?

I know it seems I like CJ and I do. But also look at the other WR that are out there and perhaps someone could explain what it might come close to costing us for each WR prospect that might be good for us. I know I am asking alot.lol. but just best guestimation as to what we would have to pay to get the WR and possibly how it could get done instead of everyone jumping on the "He sucks" and " I like this one better" and "they all have personality issues."

I mentioned CJ cause Snyder is supposed to be enamored with CJ and was wondering if CJ's agent could pull something off what and how would it be. and perhaps how we can get the lions talking trade if they supposedly have closed the door. It seems all the teams are closing the doors on WR. Is it possibly that no team is high on any WR this yr?
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:14 PM   #78
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Re: Roy Williams (WR) for a 2nd Round Pick?

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I agree with the majority of this assessment but disagree with the bolded part. For those of you with "tall receiver" fascination one name: Steve Smith.

In the receiver dept. what we need is a receiver, regardless of height, who gets open in the endzone inside the redzone and takes some of the coverage away from Cooley. Height is helpful but not determinative. It certainly comes in handy on corner fades and the occasional jump ball, but, other than that, it is short area separation, not height, that is most important.

For whatever reason, neither Moss nor ARE seem particularly suited for the redzone (not sure what their stats there are - but would not be surprised to see the majority of their TD's come from 20 yards or beyond). But M. Harrison, who is not gigantic by any means seems to do well in the short field, ditto Steve Smith.

Not sure where we find the red-zone Cooley compliment that we need. But whereever we look, we should not say that only WR's 6' 2" and over need apply.
No one is saying a small wide receiver can't succeed. Look at Moss a couple years ago. What people are saying, me included, is that you need a tall compliment to a small speedy WR. You mentioned Steve Smith, so look at these numbers:

2006 Panthers 15th in passing yards...had a 6'4" Keyshawn Johnson that caught 70 balls.
2007 Panthers 29th in passing yards...2nd best receiving threat on the team was TE Jeff King.
It's no coincidence that the Panthers passing game went to pot after losing a large target like Keyshawn. Of course the injured Delhomme hurt too, but Smith had 83 catches in 06, and 87 in 07.

You raise a good point about Harrison, however, Peyton could have a crew of midgets and he would make it work. Harrison and Wayne are some of the best route runners in the league.

Still point remains, we're not saying to never pick up small wr's again, but we need one due to the fact that we have small wr's now. They compliment each other. Will it be the end of the world if we don't get one? No, but it will free up Moss and Randle El to do other routes and be more effective for their sizes and our team concept.
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Old 02-25-2008, 10:15 PM   #79
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Re: Roy Williams (WR) for a 2nd Round Pick?

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Height is helpful but not determinative. It certainly comes in handy on corner fades and the occasional jump ball, but, other than that, it is short area separation, not height, that is most important.

For whatever reason, neither Moss nor ARE seem particularly suited for the redzone (not sure what their stats there are - but would not be surprised to see the majority of their TD's come from 20 yards or beyond). But M. Harrison, who is not gigantic by any means seems to do well in the short field, ditto Steve Smith.
Can't coach height & hops. It's a match-up problem that many teams can't answer if they don't have elite CBs. When you are inside the red-zone everything shrinks, but if you have a big target that can physically outmatch the CBs to the edge, the CBs have to play more outside to defend the fade or out. This which means the zones inside get just a bit bigger to squeeze that stop or slant in there. In addition to being able to throw the fade or stop.

I've looked at some of the red-zone stats for Harrison & Holt (in response to another thread a couple of months ago) their production is good. However they are both Pro Bowl caliber receivers and great route runners, Moss and ARE are not.

IMO we need to see if Mix can develop, even if it's just in the red-zone. From what I read a while back on Mix the folks in NY didn't want to see him go but he only plays X, same as Plaxico so he was pretty much stuck there with no chance to get on the field.

I would love to see Roy Williams here for a 2nd rounder, but it won't happen. Another team will come up with a sweeter deal than we can, and I wouldn't give up a #1 for him.
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Old 02-25-2008, 11:41 PM   #80
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Re: Roy Williams (WR) for a 2nd Round Pick?

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Randle El - good
Espy - bum with A LITTLE long-term promise
Caldwell - fine as a 3rd or 4th
Harris - bum
Moss - good
Thrash - borderline bum as a WR, special teamer only
McCardell - too old
Lloyd - bum
Mix at 6-5 235 - bum with A LITTLE long-term promise
McMullen at 6-4 215 - bum
Mann at 6-1 190 - bum
Toler at 6-2 185 - bum

Too many bums, and only 2 good ones. And the two who are good are small. The long list does nothing for me. We shouldn't care how many guys we have, we should care who we have who's capable of making serious plays.
Damn..that's a lot of bums!
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Old 02-26-2008, 03:24 AM   #81
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Re: Roy Williams (WR) for a 2nd Round Pick?

Rod marinelli already comfirmed Roy Williams isn't going anywhere... I know it sucks, but hey.. thats the way it is..
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Old 02-26-2008, 03:25 AM   #82
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Re: Roy Williams (WR) for a 2nd Round Pick?

we need a WR at least 6'3''-6'4''-220..
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Old 02-26-2008, 09:04 AM   #83
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Re: Roy Williams (WR) for a 2nd Round Pick?

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Rod marinelli already comfirmed Roy Williams isn't going anywhere... I know it sucks, but hey.. thats the way it is..
He confirmed he isn't going anywhere for now. We'll see how he feels about that as the draft nears.
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Old 02-26-2008, 12:25 PM   #84
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Re: Roy Williams (WR) for a 2nd Round Pick?

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we need a WR at least 6'3''-6'4''-220..

Good, let's go out to the backyard and pick one or two, since they are growin on trees now!
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Old 02-26-2008, 12:27 PM   #85
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Re: Roy Williams (WR) for a 2nd Round Pick?

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Good, let's go out to the backyard and pick one or two, since they are growin on trees now!

get 2 extra and trade them for extra picks
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Old 02-26-2008, 12:32 PM   #86
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Re: Roy Williams (WR) for a 2nd Round Pick?

Why do we keep talking about Wide Receivers that are not available?? Give it a rest. Stick to free agency.
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Old 02-26-2008, 09:40 PM   #87
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Re: Roy Williams (WR) for a 2nd Round Pick?

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Good, let's go out to the backyard and pick one or two, since they are growin on trees now!


What in the world are you talking about? I never said they did.. Im jsut saying we shouldn't pick up hackett at 6'2'' we need a WR that's at least 6'3closer to 6'4''..
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Old 02-26-2008, 09:42 PM   #88
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Re: Roy Williams (WR) for a 2nd Round Pick?

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What in the world are you talking about? I never said they did.. Im jsut saying we shouldn't pick up hackett at 6'2'' we need a WR that's at least 6'3closer to 6'4''..
Why?
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Old 02-26-2008, 09:44 PM   #89
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Re: Roy Williams (WR) for a 2nd Round Pick?

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Why do we keep talking about Wide Receivers that are not available?? Give it a rest. Stick to free agency.


thank you... IF dan snyder can somehow get in behind the scenes awesome.. but all points to he's not going anywhere cus they Williams and Johnson and they realize what they have in them two and I dont blame them..

I dont see us getting him seriously..
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Old 02-26-2008, 09:45 PM   #90
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Re: Roy Williams (WR) for a 2nd Round Pick?

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Why?


because I have heard hackett will want like 14 million in guaranteed money and there is NO way he's worth that IMHO.. but that's just me
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