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Old 02-29-2008, 12:32 PM   #46
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Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups

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Originally Posted by Dirtbag359 View Post
To: All the people talking about Collins learning a new system.
From: The desk of Dirtbag359

All right, I got to put this in perspective. Apparently in Year 1 Zorn is going to keep a good part of Saunders system in tact. Basically the WCO offense uses Words and Terminology while Saunders used numbers. Zorn is going to use the same terminology as Saunders, but will use that system to create a West Coast attack. I'll have to find a source but this is what I heard when Zorn was first announced as the HC.
I believe he said he's not going to touch much of the running game, but the passing game is definitely going to be his. He did say that he's going to keep things simple and only build on things once the QBs are proficient in what they start with. But if you can find something that states anything different I'm all ears.

Overall I'm honestly not too concerned about the new system. As an ex-QB himself I think Zorn is going to know exactly how to best install a new system and bring the QBs along slowly but surely. He seems like a real players coach.
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Old 02-29-2008, 12:36 PM   #47
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Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups

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Originally Posted by Mattyk72 View Post
I believe he said he's not going to touch much of the running game, but the passing game is definitely going to be his. He did say that he's going to keep things simple and only build on things once the QBs are proficient in what they start with. But if you can find something that states anything different I'm all ears.

Overall I'm honestly not too concerned about the new system. As an ex-QB himself I think Zorn is going to know exactly how to best install a new system and bring the QBs along slowly but surely. He seems like a real players coach.
Yeah, either way, new system or old system we'll be fine. Zorn is so good at coaching QB's he could turn me into a starting QB. Though our passing game would only consist of screens.
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Old 02-29-2008, 12:43 PM   #48
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Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups

We shouldn't be too worried about Collins' ability to play in a West Coast offense. People forget that Collins was in KC before Saunders arrived. And during those 2-3 years Collins' QB coach was Mike McCarthy, a WCO guy.

EDIT: Actually I think I might be off on the time (if any) they spent together in KC...but he was definitely in KC with Marty Schottenheimer (I think)
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Old 02-29-2008, 12:53 PM   #49
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Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups

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Originally Posted by Mattyk72 View Post
I believe he said he's not going to touch much of the running game, but the passing game is definitely going to be his. He did say that he's going to keep things simple and only build on things once the QBs are proficient in what they start with. But if you can find something that states anything different I'm all ears.

Overall I'm honestly not too concerned about the new system. As an ex-QB himself I think Zorn is going to know exactly how to best install a new system and bring the QBs along slowly but surely. He seems like a real players coach.
I agree.. All this talk of a "new system", it's not like he's introducing the Mid West Offense or some other random creation.. Teams at all levels run the WCO so it's not going to be completely foreign to the players. It's all a bit overblown if you ask me.
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Old 02-29-2008, 01:03 PM   #50
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Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups

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Not really. I mean what does VC have to offer the conversation? TC knows they want to resign him and he knows the Jags would like him so he is going to base his decision on comfort and opportunity mostly. That stuff is dependent on the coaching staff so to me Zorn is the only guy to deliver the message. Plus he's a former QB so that helps. Snyder just tags along cause all this stuff gets him going. He loves this stuff.

I'd ne more worried if Snyderatto went and left Zorn behind. Either way Snyder is going no matter what. He's gotta get his First Day of FA fix baby. If he aint on a jet at 12:01 then he is probably bouncing off the walls. At least time it was to make a reasoned move.
Dan just like's to be involved. Can you blame him? Hell if I dropped 800 mil to own an NFL team I'd be involved as hell. Shit I'd be calling plays down to JC. I guess that's why I don't have 800 mil.
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Old 02-29-2008, 02:30 PM   #51
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Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups

I think this notion that learning a new system is no big deal really needs to be put to bed. It has nothing to do with the West Coast Offense, we'd be in this predicament no matter what kind of system we use. New coaches take some time for their offense to get going.

Here's a sample of the recent, extremely successful West Coast Offense coaches, and how they did in their first season with their teams:

Jon Gruden - 1998 Raiders - ranked 18th in offense
Jon Gruden - 2002 Buccaneers - 24th (won the SB on great defense)
Andy Reid - 1999 Eagles - 30th
Mike Holmgren - 1992 Packers - 15th
Mike Holmgren - 1999 Seahawks - 23rd
Steve Mariucci - 1997 49ers - 12th
Steve Mariucci - 2003 Lions - 32nd
Mike Shanahan - 1988 Raiders - 19th
Mike Shanahan - 1995 Broncos - 3rd
And the Godfather himself, Bill Walsh - 1979 49ers - 6th

So when I read over that list of coaches who eventually became very successful, there were exactly three seasons among them where the offense finished in the top half of the league. And in two of those seasons, you had superstar hall-of-fame quarterbacks running the show in John Elway (Shanahan's 95 Broncos) and Steve Young (Mariucci's 97 49ers). Jason Campbell, as much as I like him, just isn't quite at that level, is he. The only guy who didn't have a superstar QB, and still got the offense clicking in year 1, was the inventor of the WCO himself, Bill Walsh.

I just chose to look at WCO coaches because that's where Zorn comes from. But if you looked at any other coach, you'd probably find similar results. When a new system takes over, it takes time for it to achieve success. Same thing happened with Gibbs in 1981 and in 2004.

Anyone expecting Zorn to orchestrate a smooth passing game this year is either ignoring history or expecting him to be the next Bill Walsh.
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Old 02-29-2008, 02:42 PM   #52
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Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups

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Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
I think this notion that learning a new system is no big deal really needs to be put to bed. It has nothing to do with the West Coast Offense, we'd be in this predicament no matter what kind of system we use. New coaches take some time for their offense to get going.

Here's a sample of the recent, extremely successful West Coast Offense coaches, and how they did in their first season with their teams:

Jon Gruden - 1998 Raiders - ranked 18th in offense
Jon Gruden - 2002 Buccaneers - 24th (won the SB on great defense)
Andy Reid - 1999 Eagles - 30th
Mike Holmgren - 1992 Packers - 15th
Mike Holmgren - 1999 Seahawks - 23rd
Steve Mariucci - 1997 49ers - 12th
Steve Mariucci - 2003 Lions - 32nd
Mike Shanahan - 1988 Raiders - 19th
Mike Shanahan - 1995 Broncos - 3rd
And the Godfather himself, Bill Walsh - 1979 49ers - 6th

So when I read over that list of coaches who eventually became very successful, there were exactly three seasons among them where the offense finished in the top half of the league. And in two of those seasons, you had superstar hall-of-fame quarterbacks running the show in John Elway (Shanahan's 95 Broncos) and Steve Young (Mariucci's 97 49ers). Jason Campbell, as much as I like him, just isn't quite at that level, is he. The only guy who didn't have a superstar QB, and still got the offense clicking in year 1, was the inventor of the WCO himself, Bill Walsh.

I just chose to look at WCO coaches because that's where Zorn comes from. But if you looked at any other coach, you'd probably find similar results. When a new system takes over, it takes time for it to achieve success. Same thing happened with Gibbs in 1981 and in 2004.

Anyone expecting Zorn to orchestrate a smooth passing game this year is either ignoring history or expecting him to be the next Bill Walsh.
Surely there have to be numerous examples of 1st year coordinators having great or good success? Just last year J. Garrett stepped in & did pretty well. I don't know the extent of the changes they made, but he wasn't on their staff the year before.

That's just the quickest that comes to mind. Also, Brees & Payton in NO in 06.
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Old 02-29-2008, 02:51 PM   #53
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Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups

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Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
I think this notion that learning a new system is no big deal really needs to be put to bed. It has nothing to do with the West Coast Offense, we'd be in this predicament no matter what kind of system we use. New coaches take some time for their offense to get going.

Here's a sample of the recent, extremely successful West Coast Offense coaches, and how they did in their first season with their teams:

Jon Gruden - 1998 Raiders - ranked 18th in offense
Jon Gruden - 2002 Buccaneers - 24th (won the SB on great defense)
Andy Reid - 1999 Eagles - 30th
Mike Holmgren - 1992 Packers - 15th
Mike Holmgren - 1999 Seahawks - 23rd
Steve Mariucci - 1997 49ers - 12th
Steve Mariucci - 2003 Lions - 32nd
Mike Shanahan - 1988 Raiders - 19th
Mike Shanahan - 1995 Broncos - 3rd
And the Godfather himself, Bill Walsh - 1979 49ers - 6th

So when I read over that list of coaches who eventually became very successful, there were exactly three seasons among them where the offense finished in the top half of the league. And in two of those seasons, you had superstar hall-of-fame quarterbacks running the show in John Elway (Shanahan's 95 Broncos) and Steve Young (Mariucci's 97 49ers). Jason Campbell, as much as I like him, just isn't quite at that level, is he. The only guy who didn't have a superstar QB, and still got the offense clicking in year 1, was the inventor of the WCO himself, Bill Walsh.

I just chose to look at WCO coaches because that's where Zorn comes from. But if you looked at any other coach, you'd probably find similar results. When a new system takes over, it takes time for it to achieve success. Same thing happened with Gibbs in 1981 and in 2004.

Anyone expecting Zorn to orchestrate a smooth passing game this year is either ignoring history or expecting him to be the next Bill Walsh.
As much as I don't want to agree, I do. Steve Young always loves to talk about how it takes 2 full seasons for an offense/QB to make a transition to West Coast ball. I think because we have good offensive talent in place we can have some effectiveness this year. By that I mean I don't think we'll be bad. Middle of the road, hopefully slightly better. Our tough as nails division won't help. Fortunately we've got a great D to help with said transition.
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:00 PM   #54
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Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups

Zorn seems commited to making this as smooth of a transition as possible. I'm not saying there won't be any bumps in the road, but he at least seems to have the right approach in mind. He's not going to overwhelm the QBs, that's for sure.
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:12 PM   #55
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Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups

If anyone is interested in reading a detailed overview of the WCO, check this out:
http://www.centuryinter.net/midway/c...tcoast/wco.pdf

This is a playbook, so it's not a 5-minutes read.
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:45 PM   #56
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Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups

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Originally Posted by freddyg12 View Post
Surely there have to be numerous examples of 1st year coordinators having great or good success? Just last year J. Garrett stepped in & did pretty well. I don't know the extent of the changes they made, but he wasn't on their staff the year before.

That's just the quickest that comes to mind. Also, Brees & Payton in NO in 06.
Payton is a good example of someone who came in and lit it up on day one.

Others that come to mind are Jason Garrett and Norv Turner this year, though it should be noted that they inherited some pretty amazing talent.

It's certainly possible, and I'm obviously hoping and praying big time that it happens for us.

But for every Sean Payton there are countless others who didn't do well. I mean, keep in mind that I limited my list to coaches who are now, years later, considered extremely successful. I didn't bother even mentioning the Marty Morningwhegs or Cam Camerons of the world, like whom Zorn could very possibly end up.

The most successful coaches in the game typically take time to get their team up and running at a high level. Be hopeful, but set realistic expectations. History should be your guide.
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:51 PM   #57
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Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups

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Originally Posted by freddyg12 View Post
Surely there have to be numerous examples of 1st year coordinators having great or good success? Just last year J. Garrett stepped in & did pretty well. I don't know the extent of the changes they made, but he wasn't on their staff the year before.

That's just the quickest that comes to mind. Also, Brees & Payton in NO in 06.
Actualy garrett was their QB coach for several seasons.
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:02 PM   #58
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Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups

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Im really happy about this! If JC stinks it up we know we have somoene that's been around, knows our guys, and can get the job done!
I doubt that JC will stink it up. All we need is for him to get a QB rating of about 80 and we'll be fine. Though I predict he'll be in the 82-85 range. What I'm worried about is what happens if Campbell gets hurt again.
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:14 PM   #59
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Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups

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You doubt? How many ITs did he throw last year? ... How many fumbles? .. How many games did we lose in the last few minutes while on an Offensive drive? I really wonder sometimes why some of you think he's our next hero.
..........no u!
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:19 PM   #60
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Re: Todd Collins Re-Ups

alright let's keep things civil here and stay on topic
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