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Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?

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Old 03-05-2008, 09:24 PM   #91
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Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?

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Originally Posted by Defensewins View Post
It is easy to compare, but the judgments are just that..judgments; and the judgments may not always be that sound. It is still a team sport and they ran diffrent play books.
I am not sure who was better. It is not so clear cut.
Stats are not the tell all/end all of who was better.
There were guys like Gayle Sayers and Jim Brown who had relatively short careers but they were incredible. Their stats are not going to be the best because they did not play 12-18 years. Stats do not tell the whole story.
Both your posts in this thread have brought out a plethora of good points, but your conclusion of "x is a problem so we shouldn't even try to form a list" is ignorant at best. It's not a worthy conclusion of good points such as era adjustments matter, the rules have changed, and it's a team sport. All very good points...so how exactly are you going from making good points to sticking your head in the sand and ignoring all arugments?

Jim Brown ranks 2nd in YPC (all-time) behind Bo Jackson, and Gale Sayers ranks fifth, so thier stats DO look very good. This is because they were two of the five best RBs of all time (and both played longer than Bo Jackson). I have no idea why you are saying "Their stats are not going to be the best because they did not play 12-18 years." That makes no sense, and shows a very shallow understanding of statistical analysis.

Since stats are reliant on human interpretation to have any value, at least you are consistent in your belief that we should do no interpreting, because we should not use statistics. I guess we just don't know anything about the game of football then, other than what people we meet can tell us.
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Old 03-05-2008, 09:25 PM   #92
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Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?

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I'll trust what actually happened--in the case of a inconsistency (which I should mention there usually isn't)--but to each their own.

Elway's body of work suggests that he wasn't a top ten passer of all time. Players who played against him are totally entited to form opinions based on their experiences, but it's still a limited viewpoint.
That might be true . Elway was also # 1 in a stat left out , sacked most times in a career < 516 > . Most of the qb's on this list had very solid teams , Elway went to a poor team . Elways td/int ratio improved as did his comp % his last 7 years ,,, maybe coaching < Shannahan> and a RB < Davis >. If you think stats are what make a player , Krieg , Testaverde would be top 10 . Kelly and Moon would be top 10 on td/ int ratio's and Comp % . The difference between Kelly / Moon as opposed to Montana and Elway , Montana and Elway played there best in the playoffs , Kelly and Moon played tight and threw picks . Favre threw 3 int's or more 5 times in the playoffs , lost playoff games at home to Seattle / Atlanta and NY . Can anyone in here name one playoff/Superbowl game were Montana , Marino or Elway blew a 14 pt lead , or threw 4-6 int's vs teams they should have beat ? I just go by what I witnessed over many years . Earl Campbell was the most dominant runner I have ever seen , 5 years from now he wont be 20th in yds/ career ,,, no way 20 rd's are better . B. Smith all time sack leader ,,,, LT was 10 times better pass rusher . One little trivia , what do Landry , Shula , Elway and P Manning have in common ? All of them were labled " Can't win the big one " ,,,, all will have a bust in Canton .
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Old 03-05-2008, 09:31 PM   #93
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Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?

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That might be true . Elway was also # 1 in a stat left out , sacked most times in a career < 516 > . Most of the qb's on this list had very solid teams , Elway went to a poor team . Elways td/int ratio improved as did his comp % his last 7 years ,,, maybe coaching < Shannahan> and a RB < Davis >. If you think stats are what make a player , Krieg , Testaverde would be top 10 . Kelly and Moon would be top 10 on td/ int ratio's and Comp % . The difference between Kelly / Moon as opposed to Montana and Elway , Montana and Elway played there best in the playoffs , Kelly and Moon played tight and threw picks . Favre threw 3 int's or more 5 times in the playoffs , lost playoff games at home to Seattle / Atlanta and NY . Can anyone in here name one playoff/Superbowl game were Montana , Marino or Elway blew a 14 pt lead , or threw 4-6 int's vs teams they should have beat ? I just go by what I witnessed over many years . Earl Campbell was the most dominant runner I have ever seen , 5 years from now he wont be 20th in yds/ career ,,, no way 20 rd's are better . B. Smith all time sack leader ,,,, LT was 10 times better pass rusher . One little trivia , what do Landry , Shula , Elway and P Manning have in common ? All of them were labled " Can't win the big one " ,,,, all will have a bust in Canton .
Yeah, well, "can't win the big one" is and has always been a misconception on the part of the guy making the assertion. There are a few buzz words in sports that when you hear them, an association is instantly made that the speaker is probably unknoledgable. "Choker" is probably the first and most telling one, but there are others.

I think it's great that pretty much all athletes that have donned the "choker" label have won a championship in their respective sports, and that people still value the concept.
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Old 03-05-2008, 09:43 PM   #94
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Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?

I have the solution to this debate ,,, we get the top 5 on this list , have them play for " the ol' ball coach " @ S. Carolina < he likes to shuffle his qb's by series > , and we will see who is # 1 LOL !!!!!
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Old 03-05-2008, 09:59 PM   #95
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Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?

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yea, and plenty of them were dumb, but its not like hes rex grossman and throws 6 a game everyweek, he played for what, like 482 years? The pics will add up. Granted Marino didnt have near that many, and its a notch.

Are there any QBs with two super bowls that arent in the hall of fame (Brady will be)
Jim Plunkett .
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Old 03-05-2008, 10:32 PM   #96
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Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?

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Top 10 probably.

For me, just going by the QBs I've personally seen in my lifetime... top 5.
With all due respect, right off the top of my head, I'd take Marino, Elway, Aikmen, Montana, Brady and P. Manning before Favre and that is five right there. There are many, many more quarterbacks that I'd take before Favre, but those are five that have played over the last 15 to 20 years.

I don't think Favre is in the top 10 all time. He may have had a lot of touchdown passes and yards, but look at the amount of interceptions he had. He was an undisciplined quarterback that broker records due to his health and longevity. He also was aided by playing in the same system for almost his entire career.
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Old 03-05-2008, 10:36 PM   #97
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Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?

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I'm sorry, but no way Elway ranks over Favre. There's just no way. I can see others (too early on Brady though), but not Elway.
Elway played in five super bowls and won two of them. The three super bowls they lost the only reason they got there was because of Elway, because they really weren't that good of a team.

Look at Elway in his prime while he was winning super bowls, vs. Favre during the same time in his prime. Elway won two MVPs.

Favre is not in the top 10 in my book.
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Old 03-05-2008, 10:37 PM   #98
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Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?

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I have to go Favre over Elway, the teams Elway was on were much better than Favre's. I can name a heck of a lot of really good RBs and WRs on those Broncos teams but I can't name hardy anyone really good like that for Green Bay. Quick name a pro bowl Packers RB in the last 15 years.

I also think when you talk about Favre it isn't just about the performance on the field. The guy is well loved by millions of fans who aren't Packer fans. The fact that he plays for a scrappy small market team, with history like none other only adds to the reverence fans have for him. The fact he came from a college no one ever heard of and he was nearly doomed to be a career backup. I loved the boyish way he had FUN playing the game , the gunslinger way he played it, and the fact he started over 250 straight games in some of the hardest playing conditions in the NFL. The guys has a "Joe Everyman" quality like no other sports star I can think of.

Statistically speaking or in terms of SB wins Favre may not be in the top ten but he'll always my favorite QB. (well non Redskin QB at least).
You don't think S. Sharpe was any good ? Freeman / Brooks / Churma and Levens ?
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Old 03-05-2008, 10:40 PM   #99
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Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?

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My Top QB list comes from my era of watching football up to this point:

Elite QBs of the 80's/90's:

1. Joe Montana
2. Dan Marino
3. Steve Young
4. Bret Favre
5. John Elway
6. Troy Akiman
7. Jim Kelly
8. Phil Simms

Very Good QBs of the 80's that are probably a class just below great:

1. Bernie Kosar
2. Warren Moon
3. Randall Cunningham
4. Joe Theismann
5. Dave Krieg
i hate when they rate Montana as number one all time. He played in the best system and had the best cast around him. Same as Steve Young..Hall of Famer?Yes...Great player?Yes but not number 1
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Old 03-05-2008, 10:55 PM   #100
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Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?

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Yeah, well, "can't win the big one" is and has always been a misconception on the part of the guy making the assertion. There are a few buzz words in sports that when you hear them, an association is instantly made that the speaker is probably unknoledgable. "Choker" is probably the first and most telling one, but there are others.

I think it's great that pretty much all athletes that have donned the "choker" label have won a championship in their respective sports, and that people still value the concept.
I think you missed my point . To much emphasis on stats or winning alone . In order to have great stats as a qb , you need coaching , OL , RD's , OL and a stout defence helps . Teams win championships , not the QB . The game is played to win , not who throws the prettiest pass or has the highest comp. % . Grossman hit close to 70% of his passes , Pennigton , Culpepper has put up some very impressive #'s . I know I watched Montana , Elway and Marino pull out near impossible wins more than the others , I do not remember seeing either of them lose a big game , that is what I see as the most important stat .
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Old 03-05-2008, 10:58 PM   #101
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Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?

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Elway played in five super bowls and won two of them. The three super bowls they lost the only reason they got there was because of Elway, because they really weren't that good of a team.

Look at Elway in his prime while he was winning super bowls, vs. Favre during the same time in his prime. Elway won two MVPs.

Favre is not in the top 10 in my book.
Please see my other posts sir.
1- Elway has 1 MVP (not two), Favre has 3.
2- Other than the super bowls (which is an indicator of a good team, and I already pointed out that Elway had very good defenses during his tenure) Favre beats him in every thing, including all pro's.
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Old 03-05-2008, 10:58 PM   #102
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i hate when they rate Montana as number one all time. He played in the best system and had the best cast around him. Same as Steve Young..Hall of Famer?Yes...Great player?Yes but not number 1
I can't stand the 9ers either , but Montana was not a system qb , That man took a beating many times and hit guys dead on the money < see comeback vs Philly '88 or 89 > ? He was as good as it gets with the game on the line . 49ers still suck of course
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Old 03-05-2008, 11:22 PM   #103
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Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?

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Please see my other posts sir.
1- Elway has 1 MVP (not two), Favre has 3.
2- Other than the super bowls (which is an indicator of a good team, and I already pointed out that Elway had very good defenses during his tenure) Favre beats him in every thing, including all pro's.
A defence that gives up 39 , 42 and 55 points in the Super Bowl is " very good " ? What would you consider bad , 72 pts per game ? Favre didn't have a defence , R. White , Jones , Joyner Koonce , ,newsome , Anderson . What about the OL that Elway played behind his first 6/7 years , he ran for his life ,,, like our qb's did under Spurrier . As great as they both were , Elway did not blow big games , Favre did a couple of times . Elway got to 5 SB's Favre 2 . Favre had a chance to win the game against Denver and threw a low pass behind his TE.GB was a 13 pt favorite going into that game , GB had more talent than Denver .I would bet most CB's hated to face either one . If you go by stats / passer ratings Bulger,Culpepper and Pennington are 5 - 7 all time . Stats only tell a little bit of the story . I know you put up some nice stats , take a minute to look at the # Elway put up Under Shannahan compared to his early years . Favre's # are not as impressive after Holmgren left . MVP/Pro Bowls are votes , football is not skating , winning is what counts , no points for looking pretty .
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Old 03-05-2008, 11:42 PM   #104
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Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?

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A defence that gives up 39 , 42 and 55 points in the Super Bowl is " very good " ? What would you consider bad , 72 pts per game ? Favre didn't have a defence , R. White , Jones , Joyner Koonce , ,newsome , Anderson . What about the OL that Elway played behind his first 6/7 years , he ran for his life ,,, life our qb's did under Spurrier . As great as they both were , Elway did not blow big games , Favre did a couple of times . Elway got to 5 SB's Favre 2 . Favre had a chance to win the game against Denver and threw a low pass behind his TE.GB was a 13 pt favorite going into that game , GB had more talent than Denver .I would bet most CB's hated to face either one . If you go by stats / passer ratings Bulger,Culpepper and Pennington are 5 - 7 all time . Stats only tell a little bit of the story . I know you put up some nice stats , take a minute to look at the # Elway put up Under Shannahan compared to his early years . Favre's # are not as impressive after Holmgren left . MVP/Pro Bowls are votes , football is not skating , winning is what counts , no points for looking pretty .
You can tell you don't pay attention to the posts, because you would realize that you have spelt defense wrong several times.

So I guess the Skins defense sucked this past year cause we let up 50 some odd points to the Pats right? I guess we should strip the Giants of their SB win cause they let up 45 to the Cowboys, 41 to the Vikings, and 38 to the patriots?
I guess the previous 17 or 18 games for the Broncos mean nothing, but the one game vs the best team they had to face means everything to you. Didn't realize you'd be judged SOLELY on 1 game and not the 18 or so that lead up to it.
That is a crazy statement to say that Elway didn't blow games. Until you prove that statement, I will consider it blind love for Elway. EVERY QB has lost games, and Elway did too.
I already pointed out that Favre threw 145 go ahead tds to Elway's only 103. AND I pointed out that Favre played better in the playoffs. What more do you need? You don't get 42 more go ahead TDs by choking buddy.
You can't ignore EVERYTHING and just point out super bowls (something that is a TEAM issue, not individual). That's the ONLY thing Elway has him in. You can ignore all the stats, MVPs, all pros all you want, but it doesn't make Elway better.
By your logic, Trent Dilfer was better than Dan Marino since Dilfer has a championship, and Marino does not. You seem like a logical poster, so I emplore you to open your mind and see this objectively.
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Old 03-05-2008, 11:45 PM   #105
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Re: Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?

Favre had no one around him hardly ever, and was one of the most fun QB's to watch regardless of if he was winning. As far as talent goes, I have never seen the tenacity, toughness, and raw talent in any other QB. I say #1 has to go to Montana, #2 Unitas, and #3 Favre, with Marino coming in at a very very very close 4. Elway is somewhere in the top 10, but IMO is overrated to certain degree. I hope Favre does not really retire. I know its "official" and all but I have a feeling he may be back before September...
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