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Old 04-28-2008, 09:19 PM   #46
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Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review

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Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33 View Post
JLC did that to himself. If he's going to make a point in a major media outlet, get your facts straight. Don't blow this off, how can you write opinions about the Redskins, say the Front Office screwed up, and not understand something so basic as this? You wouldn't use any of those players in his scenario because it would be going back 5 yds every time you line up.

To your point, Kelly and Thomas will probably not both be ready as a # 1 & #2 WR on day one, they will need to develop and learn the NFL and WCO. Here's what I envision this year as a few personnel packages:

I-Form: Moss - Z, Thomas - X, Cooley TE, Sellars FB, Portis will be RB is all formations.

I-Form or Split-Back (hands): same as above with Davis / Cooley at FB & TE, not sure who is where depends on what Zorn wants to do.

3WR: Moss - Z, Thomas - X, ARE - Slot, Sellars or Cooley FB
3WR (Singleback): same as above Cooley at TE

Singleback, 2TE - Moss - Z, Thomas - X, Davis & Cooley TEs
Singleback, 2TE wide - same as above with Davis & Cooley either wide or in the slots

4WR - Moss, ARE, Kelly, Thomas.

4WR, TE - add Cooley to above

Moss will probably not get through the year healthy.
ARE is a good slot WR, not much more.
Cooley & Davis can create a lot of mismatches unless a team has very good coverage LBs. If a D brings in a nickle package against a 2TE formation for coverage they will get smashed on a run. If a D stays with LB coverage they better have some good cover LBs to account for Cooley & Davis.
Sellars will be a traditional blocking FB.

The 2nd round picks are going to be very "cap friendly" for at least three years. By 2010 Moss & ARE will be able to be released and will probably not be effective at that point anyway. From a skill player perspective we are set at WR, TE, RB for at least 3 years. These guys give Zorn many formations to go to and many potential mismatches against the D to exploit. Kelly and Thomas are also bigger WRs, gives Campbell bigger targets as he develops his accuracy.

Now how about you come up with a point better than: They should've gotten OL / DL or Campbell won't be able to throw if he doesn't have time.

hmmmmm, I like the way you broke these scenarios down. It makes a lot of since, and seems very realistic. I like it.
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Old 04-28-2008, 09:29 PM   #47
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Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review

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Originally Posted by JWsleep View Post
For what it's worth, Boswell also had his doubts about our day 1 choices, and for the same reasons, pretty much:

washingtonpost.com - nation, world, technology and Washington area news and headlines

I don't think Boswell is an off-the-wall nay-sayer. He's pretty straight up about these things. And while it may well turn out just fine, it's not off-the-wall for JLac to point out that this is not how other teams are doing things, from the coaching selection process to the draft. And it's not like this is the first time Danny and Vinny ahve done things their own way--it's what they do. Maybe it'll work out. But it's not the conventional wisdom. Sure, Kiper and other network and internent pundits liked it. But that's not the only legit opinion on drafting.

Think back to when we made the TE and 2nd WR pick. How did you react then? We can go look at the draft thread. I was unsure, as were many of you. So we've now come round and convinced ourselves that it's ok. Fine. Maybe that's right. But JLac isn't being overly negative to bring up the contrary view. His coverage has been excellent, in the following sense: he's ALWAYS working that beat. He puts in tons of time on the paper and the blog, AND he answers emails. So you don't agree with his opinion; that's part of the process. But to say he's off his rocker and just being negative is too harsh in this case, IMHO.
Great post.
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Old 04-28-2008, 09:40 PM   #48
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Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review

One of my biggest issues with JLC is how his Insider info tends to come after the fact, if at all. Case in point

"Inside the building, coaches were fretting that upper management was pushing grades higher on players like Malcolm Kelly, inflating their worth as the draft approaches, while Kelly was dropping down other boards. Teams I spoke to before the draft had him rated in the lower half of the second round, and no one seems shocked he was still on the board at 51. The Redskins kept coming up with high grades on this slumping receiver class, thus ensuring a self-fulfilling prophecy: If you simply follow the board, and the draft plays out as expected, and you sit there with a bunch of second round picks, of course you're going to have wide receivers "sticking out like a sore thumb."

Maybe I missed this, but did he talk about this stuff before the draft? Or did he just wait until afterward? If he waited, then why?
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Old 04-28-2008, 09:42 PM   #49
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Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review

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Originally Posted by FRPLG View Post
This goes back to what I have said recently about JLC and his "sources". He seems to value thier opinion over all else. Who they are and what their motivations go out the window. I know he has guys he trusts but maybe the "self-fulfilling prophecy" is that he seeks out nay sayers. I'd like him for once to just say "I don't agree with this" Rather than "League sources are skeptical". Of course they are. They have reason to support the decision and don't even know what the process was in making the decision. In fact in some cases they are keenly motivated to disgaree for no other reason other than to simply disagree because it is an opponent. I am sure the Skins look around and make judgements of other teams. Their opinions matter(or don't) as much as anyone else's.
I remember watching the draft and towards the end of the first round Malcolm Kelly was at the top of Mel Kiper's "Best Available" list of all players. And he was there for pick after pick. Now, say what you want about Mel Kiper. Some people like him, some don't.

If I had one gripe, it would the trade out of pick #21 which essentially gave us an even exchange with Atlanta (3 picks for 3 picks). We shouldn't have had to part with the first 3rd rounder. If any team wants to move up, then they have to pay for it. Now, if the deal wasn't going to get done without the 3rd and 5th, that's one thing. But I'd like to know exactly how that one went down.
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Old 04-28-2008, 09:44 PM   #50
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Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review

and if all these teams had Kelly in the "lower half of the second round" didnt the skins pick him where they should have? Last I checked thats where pick #51 is
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Old 04-28-2008, 09:56 PM   #51
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Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review

Here is a really cool video with film highlights of all draft picks with the exception of some film on Rhinehart. Check it out, and make sure to give the creator of that video some props.

YouTube - Washington Redskins 2008 Draft Picks
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Old 04-28-2008, 11:55 PM   #52
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Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review

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Originally Posted by SkinsFanSince91 View Post
Here is a really cool video with film highlights of all draft picks with the exception of some film on Rhinehart. Check it out, and make sure to give the creator of that video some props.

YouTube - Washington Redskins 2008 Draft Picks
good video!!
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Old 04-29-2008, 01:13 AM   #53
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Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review

Well, I take a few things from JLa's blog.

He certainly is playing devil's advocate as far as "building in the trenches" is concerned. And he may not be far off. But in response, a few things to consider:

We do need some depth on the OL and DL, and maybe we do need another pass rusher to bookend Andre Carter. But maybe Phillip Daniels has another year left in him. Maybe Greg Blache sees a bright future in Chris Wilson who came on strong down the stretch last year.

Now that the O-line is 100% healthy, what are the chances we again lose Thomas AND Jansen to season ending injuries in the first two weeks? I'd say remote considering how durable both players had been prior to '07. With Samuels, Thomas, Kendall, Rabach, and Jansen all full go come training camp, and Heyer, Wade, Fabini, and Reinhart behind them, I think we'll be okay for another year.

As far as the Redskins "inflating" their draft board rankings on Kelly and their past obsession with WRs: Devin Thomas was rated the #1 receiver in the draft. Sure it wasn't an awesome class, but most experts agree he was a steal at #34 considering many mocks had him going to Buffalo at #11. Kelly was rated the #1 receiver until the past few weeks when some "character" flags popped up. McShay loves him, and apparently so did Jason Campbell when he flew down to Oklahoma with Vinny and Co. to work him out. For anyone who doesn't think we need a plethora of pass catchers in the WCO, look at Seattle's passing stats last year:

Their top 7 receivers in '07 totaled 315 catches for 3685 yards and 25 TDs.

Our top 7 receivers in '07 totaled 285 catches for 3141 yards and 15 TDs.

That's 30 less receptions for 544 less yards and 10 less TDs. Pretty significant, especially the TDs. I understand we ran more and they threw more, but this is our new offense now. And frankly we didn't have the personnel to make it work.

Our defense was pretty damn good last year despite a wide variety of injuries. All the staff (Gregg aside) and personnel are returning. It's fine with me that offense was the focus, particularly the passing game. Sure he mentions the Coles, Lloyd, Moss, Randle El dealings, but we haven't drafted a significant WR since Taylor Jacobs, and that pick was primarily b/c of the Ole Ball Coach. Prior to that, Michael Westbrook? We needed at least 2 of these 3 pass catchers we drafted. Funny how a position that Danny is so enamored with hasn't been a position he's cared to draft until now.

I bothers me a bit that JLa has been so negative, but I understand. He covers the Skins for a living, and the team's overall performance, both on the field and in the front office, hasn't exactly been glowing. I definitely hope Danny and Vinny can prove him wrong.

On a side note, where are the Anthony Mix sycophants now?
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Old 04-29-2008, 03:13 AM   #54
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Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33 View Post
JLC did that to himself. If he's going to make a point in a major media outlet, get your facts straight. Don't blow this off, how can you write opinions about the Redskins, say the Front Office screwed up, and not understand something so basic as this? You wouldn't use any of those players in his scenario because it would be going back 5 yds every time you line up.

To your point, Kelly and Thomas will probably not both be ready as a # 1 & #2 WR on day one, they will need to develop and learn the NFL and WCO. Here's what I envision this year as a few personnel packages:

I-Form: Moss - Z, Thomas - X, Cooley TE, Sellars FB, Portis will be RB is all formations.

I-Form or Split-Back (hands): same as above with Davis / Cooley at FB & TE, not sure who is where depends on what Zorn wants to do.

3WR: Moss - Z, Thomas - X, ARE - Slot, Sellars or Cooley FB
3WR (Singleback): same as above Cooley at TE

Singleback, 2TE - Moss - Z, Thomas - X, Davis & Cooley TEs
Singleback, 2TE wide - same as above with Davis & Cooley either wide or in the slots

4WR - Moss, ARE, Kelly, Thomas.

4WR, TE - add Cooley to above

Moss will probably not get through the year healthy.
ARE is a good slot WR, not much more.
Cooley & Davis can create a lot of mismatches unless a team has very good coverage LBs. If a D brings in a nickle package against a 2TE formation for coverage they will get smashed on a run. If a D stays with LB coverage they better have some good cover LBs to account for Cooley & Davis.
Sellars will be a traditional blocking FB.

The 2nd round picks are going to be very "cap friendly" for at least three years. By 2010 Moss & ARE will be able to be released and will probably not be effective at that point anyway. From a skill player perspective we are set at WR, TE, RB for at least 3 years. These guys give Zorn many formations to go to and many potential mismatches against the D to exploit. Kelly and Thomas are also bigger WRs, gives Campbell bigger targets as he develops his accuracy.

Now how about you come up with a point better than: They should've gotten OL / DL or Campbell won't be able to throw if he doesn't have time.

WOW, finally someone who can stuff 10lbs of bologna in a 5lbs bag.

4 WR sets? And wheres the nearest hospital? Because Campbell is on his way he just don't know it yet.

Cooley is now a fullback? Or is it Davis? Regardless neither is known for there blocking.

I honestly can't remember a real west coast system employing 2 TE's, or 4 WR's?

Quote:
Now how about you come up with a point better than: They should've gotten OL / DL or Campbell won't be able to throw if he doesn't have time
Something better than that? I guess you don't find that important?
I thought the point was pretty pointed, a QB needs time to throw, and with an ageing line and no real depth that can be a real problem especially the way you have us utilizing all these receivers.

Tell me if the blocking is as it has been for the most part since Campbells arrival, how is he going to have the time to utilize a 4 receiver set?
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Old 04-29-2008, 03:27 AM   #55
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Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review

Well JLC's promise to the fans was that if the team started winning his tone would change. He said something like this in 2006. Then we made the playoffs last year and he got crankier than ever. The key moment that proved to me that he had lost it was when he slammed the skins for trading Archuleta, the snitch with the massive salary who they were going to cut anyway and yet somehow got a pick for. You don't have to know much about football to recognize that that was a coup for us, but JLC somehow found fault with it.

Him and Boswell seem to echo the same argument, could the Skins really be right about players that the rest of the league (or at least the few teams that JLC talks to) evaluated differently. While only time will tell, by JLC's logic a team should never draft a sliding player because the league must know something. Miami shouldn't have drafted Marino and the Bucs shouldn't have drafted Sapp because, really, could the rest of the league be wrong?

While you can debate the strategy of drafting quality over need, you can't argue that our second round players were steals based on their consensus projections (in spite of what JLC's snippety secret sources charge). Kudos to the FO for sticking by their board.

Does anyone else get the feeling that if we had drafted Mike Jenkins at 21 JLC would be complaining about how we should have traded down, and that his sources thought Jenkins was a second round talent?
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Old 04-29-2008, 03:35 AM   #56
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Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review

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Originally Posted by HOGTIMUS PRIME View Post
WOW, finally someone who can stuff 10lbs of bologna in a 5lbs bag.

4 WR sets? And wheres the nearest hospital? Because Campbell is on his way he just don't know it yet.

Cooley is now a fullback? Or is it Davis? Regardless neither is known for there blocking.

I honestly can't remember a real west coast system employing 2 TE's, or 4 WR's?



Something better than that? I guess you don't find that important?
I thought the point was pretty pointed, a QB needs time to throw, and with an ageing line and no real depth that can be a real problem especially the way you have us utilizing all these receivers.

Tell me if the blocking is as it has been for the most part since Campbells arrival, how is he going to have the time to utilize a 4 receiver set?
Keep in mind that Zorn has been heavily influenced by Holmgren...so with that in mind

Effective by any name: Holmgren disputes 'West Coast' title, not results

"We run a lot more single-back, four-receiver offense than we ever did in San Francisco," Holmgren said."

ESPN - Holmgren's scheme will be challenged by 3-4 look - NFL

"Sometimes, he'll use four-receiver sets, with plays similar to the run-and-shoot featuring one back. True to the West Coast offense, Holmgren also will run out of those multiple-receiver sets. "

And there's this

Zorn gets his ... men

"The addition of Davis will allow the Redskins to do what the Seahawks used to do when they had Itula Mili and Jerramy Stevens which is, show two-tight end personnel in the huddle, only to go with a four-wide formation by slotting the tight ends."

And I'd hardly say we have no depth on the O Line. And I don't know what games you've been watching but the blocking has not been so abysmal as you imply since Campbell's arrival.
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Old 04-29-2008, 03:49 AM   #57
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Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review

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Originally Posted by HOGTIMUS PRIME View Post

4 WR sets? And wheres the nearest hospital? Because Campbell is on his way he just don't know it yet.

Cooley is now a fullback? Or is it Davis? Regardless neither is known for there blocking.

I honestly can't remember a real west coast system employing 2 TE's, or 4 WR's?


I seem to recall the Seahawks employing 4 wr sets very liberally, to tremendous effect. When a west coast system is run correctly it is very difficult to get to the quarterback since the ball is released so quickly.
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Old 04-29-2008, 06:11 AM   #58
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Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review

For the record, I am not a fan of this draft despite the positive feedback from most draft experts.
As I've posted in other threads, it takes a wr three years to become a full time starter (on avg, I know there are exceptions like Randy Moss). At that time, Moss and ARE will both be 31. If Thomas and Kelly become the great wr's that the FO believes, then we are in the great position of trying to keep everyone happy with only one football.
I don't think it's possible to please everyone with this draft with the amount of holes we have. Personally, I wanted DL and CB early and OL and LB for depth. With a top 10 defense I see why we went offense but I disagree.
I hate using early picks on WR. Outside of QB, I think it is the hardest position to project from college to pro.
That being said, JLC (and Boswell) will find any reason to rip Danny and Cerrato. It was weird hearing so many NFL insiders and experts praise Cerrato as great talent evaluator when JLC and his minions paint him as the dumbest SOB to ever work in an NFL FO.
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Old 04-29-2008, 06:19 AM   #59
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Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review

Hey all. First post here. I have been a Skins fan my whole life and I have lived in the NOVA area my whole life. I tend to agree with most of you about JLC.

I do want to say that I really liked the Skin's picks. I understand that we got a free pick and that what we did we could afford to do because of the awesome awesome trade they were able to pull of. I also like the fact that we took two shots on a WR and that the odds are we get a really good possibly great player out of one of them.

I can see the positives....but...

There are a couple of things I would have done differently and one would have been taking Quentin Groves or Calais Campbell instead of one of the guys we took in the 2nd. I would probably have leaned toward taking Groves over Campbell. In terms of pure pass rushing capability this kid is off the charts and was arguably the best pure pass rusher in the draft. He is a beast. Groves is smaller but that would give us more flexibility with him. Most people compare him to DeMarcus Ware.

Still cannot understand, and will probably never understand, why the Skins did not jump at one of those 2 guys when the DE position is so glaring of a need. If there is one thing that guys like JLC and Boswell have pegged it is that Snerrato run things like a fantasy team... and I am sure it is more of Snyder and his arrogance and child-like petulance.

I really would have loved for the Skins to have picked up Owen Schmitt from WVU... they would have needed to have used the 4th on him though. We do have Mike Sellers who is a hammerhead as well so this would have been a luxury pick and was used on something we need more. Schmitt is one guy that I thought could be the bigtime FB lead blocker that most teams covet. Plus he has very very good offensive skills... alot like Alstott in terms of running people over and always getting 2-3 yards... but he is just as big in the passing game. A true throwback.

I thought the Skins should have maybe taken a LB and Stanford Keglar (a 3 yr starter at Purdue) or Marcus Howard from Georgia and maybe Alvin Bowen would have been great picks with the 4th. I'm not sure about Tryon but he does sure sound like another Fred Smoot and that is OK in my book.... and we got some needed CB depth there.

I had no issues with the punter being taken. He was the best punter in the draft by far and alot of people think he might be an all-time great. I say kudos to that.... we may need to be able to pin people far downfield this year... moreso than the last few years.

I loved the picks of Moore and Horton. I have a feeling that BOTH of these guys may stick. Both like to hit like a mack truck.

Absolutely LOVED the Rinehart pick. This guy is going to be starting sooner rather than later. A real mauler and could be a huge steal.

So.... positives and negatives from this draft. All in all I can't really complain. There is still time to get a roster together so I am pretty sure we will see them pick up an extra DE, LB, OL, and DT as we go on towards the '08 season.

Can't wait to see the team on the field this year... particularly the offense!
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Old 04-29-2008, 09:00 AM   #60
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Re: Redskins Insider: Draft Review

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Originally Posted by HOGTIMUS PRIME View Post
Something better than that? I guess you don't find that important?
I thought the point was pretty pointed, a QB needs time to throw, and with an ageing line and no real depth that can be a real problem especially the way you have us utilizing all these receivers.

Tell me if the blocking is as it has been for the most part since Campbells arrival, how is he going to have the time to utilize a 4 receiver set?
You need to get your facts straight. SS took care of the other points. Here's some OL info from another post.

"No time to throw" would indicate a poor OL. Our OL was above average with all the injuries and as long as Joe Bugel is our line coach, no matter the talent, will continue to be at worst, average. Stats from 2007:

Sacks Allowed - NFL Rank 13th
Sack % - 12th

Rush Yds - 12th
Pass Yds - 14th
INTs - 4th lowest

The only poor OL stat was Yards per Carry and that has as much to do with the playcalling as OL performance.

Our OL has a Pro Bowl LT, a Pro Bowl caliber RG, a solid C, and an above average RT. The only immediate hole we have is at LG and we drafted a G in the 3rd who should be able to fill that position.

You may want to quit while you're behind.
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