We need competition for Suisham

jsarno · 08-06-2008, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGreene28

The highest rated kicker in the draft was Brandon Coutu from Georgia. He has the strong leg (kicked a 58 yarder at UGA) .... one of the strongest you'll ever see with range extending to 60+

He is currently in competition with Olindo Mare in Seattle... I'm pretty sure the Skins would bring him in to compete if the Seahawks cut him.

The 2nd rated kicker in the draft was Piotr Czech from Wagner.. He's 6'5" and has range well over 50 making a 56 yarder last season.

"04/29/08 - Two of the greatest and most decorated football players in Wagner College history, kicker/punter Piotr Czech (Keyport, NJ/ Keyport) and cornerback/return specialist Al Phillips (Hialeah, FL/ American), have signed NFL free agent contracts with the Baltimore Ravens and the New York Jets, respectively. Czech, an American Football Coaches Association (AFCA) All-American, possessed the strongest leg of any placekicker to ever compete in the Northeast Conference during its 12-year football history. The 6-foot-5 inch Czech converted on field goal attempts of 56 and 50 yards this season. The 56-yarder, which came against Saint Francis (PA) at windy Wagner College Stadium, is the longest in league and Wagner history. With two successful tries from 54 yards out during the 2006 season, Czech now owns the three longest field goals ever converted in the NEC. His accuracy was also second to none as evidenced by his 84.2 percent (16-19) field goal success rate. Czech's strong leg was also a major weapon on kick-offs. In addition, his 40.2 yards per punt average was third-best in the league and his net average of 36.68 yards was the conference's best mark and the nation's seventh-highest average. He dropped 26 of his 64 punts inside the opponents' 20-yard line. "During the final round of the draft, I started receiving calls from various teams," said Czech. "The Ravens were the team that showed the most interest. Their special teams coach, Jerry Rosburg, called me and indicated that he was excited to have me come down and show what I can do. "They have a veteran kicker in Matt Stover who has been in the league a long time," Czech added. "So, they wanted to bring in a young guy to compete with him. I am grateful for this opportunity and I am looking forward to going down there and doing my best." - Wagner Football "

Czech is trying to unseat Matt Stover in Baltimore so that is another competition to keep an eye on.
Baltimore Ravens' Realm: Piotr Czech works hard to prove his mettle - Examiner.com

Excellent post.

Odd that Stover (who is better than Suisham IMO and is a HOF kicker if the HOF took kickers seriously, but age is a factor) is in competition for his job but not Suisham.
I may be recalling incorrectly, but isn't there a back up kicker "competing" in the Colts camp too?

jdlea · 08-06-2008, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsarno

If we could have gotten him for league min solely to do kickoffs, then absolutely. He instantly would get us 10+ yards on every kick. But your comment proves a point...no one gave Janikowski competition in Oakland, and how did that turn out for him?

BTW- Janikowski gets a bad wrap because his FG% is always low. However, he made 6 50+ FG's last year, and had 11 attempts from 50+.
From 20-39 Suisham missed 2 FG's, Janikowski, only 1. Also, in Janikowski's 8 year career, he has missed only 11 fg's from 20-39. (that's an average of a little over 1 a year, 1.375) Any kicker should be able to hit FG's from 20-39, but the measure of a kicker is how good he is from long range. No one really wants a kicker that can't kick from 50. So to answer your question, if we brought in Janikowski to compete, then I would have been ecstatic about that. If Suisham beat him out in camp, then he deserves the job.

Suisham was more accurate inside of 50 yards last season. 81% to 85% in favor of Suisham, so Janikowski deserves his bad rap. He's a mediocre kicker with a big leg.

I think carrying 2 kickers is a waste of a roster spot. It's pretty difficult to shave down a roster and being forced to carry 2 kickers doesn't make it any easier.

The ideal thing would be to get a great kicker, sign him for forever and forget about the position, but there aren't that many out there.

Now, I'm not really saying he shouldn't have had to compete, I just disagree that because Suisham doesn't have a big leg, he shouldn't be on the team. If Brooks works at punter, they should see if he can kick kickoffs, but I don't want to see a second kicker who only kicks kickoffs and 50+ yard field goals.

DGreene28 · 08-06-2008, 01:34 PM

The interesting thing about Czech is he can be a very capable backup punter as well... He'd obviously be a big upgrade on kickoffs. I think the Skins have an eye on that competition over in MD and would be willing to bring either Stover or Czech in as soon as one is cut. It may be Stover the way Czech's kicking right now.

GTripp0012 · 08-06-2008, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsarno

So you're saying Suisham is a "dime a dozen" type of player...yet he has NO COMPETITION for his job. You don't see a problem with that?

Maybe Brooks can win the kick off specialist job, and then it doesn't matter whether or not Suisham has competition.

I mean, Suisham looked good on kickoffs on Sunday, but he's also incredibly inconsistent.

jsarno · 08-06-2008, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Maybe Brooks can win the kick off specialist job, and then it doesn't matter whether or not Suisham has competition.

I guess time will tell on that one. We don't really have an option here...we're just "hoping".

Quote:

I mean, Suisham looked good on kickoffs on Sunday, but he's also incredibly inconsistent.

It's also 80+ degrees. The football doesn't have the consistancy of a rock yet. I did see one kick that went into the back of the endzone and had to rewind it to see if that was suisham. I find it hard to beleive that he all of sudden got stronger, but you never know. Hopefully this won't be an issue all season. Hopefully he'll hit 85%+ of his kicks and is clutch all season, then we won't have to worry at all. Like I said before, hopefully Suisham proves me wrong...I'd love to see it.

Mattyk · 08-06-2008, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsarno

I guess leg strength doesn't matter?

By your standards Morton Anderson is a stud. 25 of 28, (89.3%), 24 of 24 (100%) PAT's. (47 yards was his long)
Suisham 29 of 35 (82.9%), 29 of 30 PAT's (96.7%). (50 was his long)

By those numbers, Anderson is better...maybe we should have invited him into camp? (note- sarcasm)

Who here would take Anderson over Suisham???? This is a case where stats don't prove everything. Let us not forget that missed kick vs Seattle, and he just missed an easy kick in his first preseason game.

Suisham was 18 for 20 inside 39. Only 6 players had more attempts from that length.

So now your argument is all about leg strength?

I guess you had to move on to something since I already showed you he's in the top 15 in most kicking categories.

Leg strength is overrated. By your standard Janikowski must be the best kicker in the history of the game.

This topic is now officially retarded.

jsarno · 08-06-2008, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdlea

Suisham was more accurate inside of 50 yards last season. 81% to 85% in favor of Suisham, so Janikowski deserves his bad rap. He's a mediocre kicker with a big leg.

I'm failing to understand this logic. 81% is not bad, and is only 4% worse than Suisham, but he is MUCH better at kickoffs, and can reach the goal posts from 50+, but that doesn't matter???? I'm not saying Janikowski is better...I'm really not...I'm just saying that competition would have been welcomed. Being mediocre with a big leg is better than being slightly better than mediocre with a wet noodle leg.

Quote:

I think carrying 2 kickers is a waste of a roster spot. It's pretty difficult to shave down a roster and being forced to carry 2 kickers doesn't make it any easier.

I can agree with that. Which is why I'd prefer someone that can do it all. This the competition comments. If we couldn't find someone, then we move on, but at least we tried.

Quote:

The ideal thing would be to get a great kicker, sign him for forever and forget about the position, but there aren't that many out there.

agreed.

Quote:

Now, I'm not really saying he shouldn't have had to compete, I just disagree that because Suisham doesn't have a big leg, he shouldn't be on the team. If Brooks works at punter, they should see if he can kick kickoffs, but I don't want to see a second kicker who only kicks kickoffs and 50+ yard field goals.

I can agree with that as well.

DGreene28 · 08-06-2008, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

So now your argument is all about leg strength?

I guess you had to move on to something since I already showed you he's in the top 15 in most kicking categories.

Leg strength is overrated. By your standard Janikowski must be the best kicker in the history of the game.

This topic is now officially retarded.

I think you're underrating leg strength. A kicker who can consistently kick the ball into the endzone makes a KO coverage team much better...

and a kicker who has range into the high 50's can make a huge difference over the course of a season... Obviously making kicks 40-49 separates the good kickers from the mediocre ones , and a kicker is supposed to make all of his FG's from 30-39.

And lastly, instead of bashing a thread/topic why not simply retire from it?

Mattyk · 08-06-2008, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGreene28

I think you're underrating leg strength. A kicker who can consistently kick the ball into the endzone makes a KO coverage team much better...

and a kicker who has range into the high 50's can make a huge difference over the course of a season... Obviously making kicks 40-49 separates the good kickers from the mediocre ones , and a kicker is supposed to make all of his FG's from 30-39.

And lastly, instead of bashing a thread/topic why not simply retire from it?

Of course leg strength is important, but is it more important than accuracy?

Even though the thread has taken a seriously retarded turn, it's still fun to poke fun at it.

I mean c'mon... with an 80 man roster we're supposed to believe that we need to bring in some warm bodies off the street to compete for a kicking job that was solid a year ago? I don't see the logic. And I guess the Redskins agree it would be a waste of time since they haven't started up that mock competition yet. And since I don't know anything about kickers either I'm going to defer to their decision.

jsarno · 08-06-2008, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

So now your argument is all about leg strength?

My argument has, and always will be, that Suisham has not earned to not have competition for the job.

Quote:

I guess you had to move on to something since I already showed you he's in the top 15 in most kicking categories.

That's funny, cause I showed you Morten Anderson you realized that your stats mean nothing? Way to stick to your guns. If your argument about the top 15 stats means anything, then you HAVE to admit that Anderson is a better kicker, and that's not going to happen. Nice big flaw in your argument there eh? Obviously Anderson is not, but the stats prove it...ouch...quite a conundrum we have here.
You also missed the point of there were only 6 kickers that had more attempts from 20-39, meaning OF COURSE Suisham will "appear" to have better numbers. When you're closer to the goal posts, then you usually have a tendancy to hit more FG's. I would have expected you to figure that out, but when you think that Suisham is a badass, then I guess you won't look at things objectively.

Quote:

Leg strength is overrated. By your standard Janikowski must be the best kicker in the history of the game.

WOW...leg stregth is overrated?????? Might as well not do kickoffs at all then...might as well not make that a part of the game since you think it's overrated.

ps- follow along with other posts, I never once said I'd prefer Janikowski, but I did say I would welcome the competition. It wouldn't hurt.

Quote:

This topic is now officially retarded.

Nope...just your weak argument.

For the record, here are the kickers I think are better or equal to Suisham in no particular order:
1- Gostkowski
2- Folk
3- Josh Brown
4- Gould
5- Crosby
6- Kris Brown
7- Scobee
8- Rackers
9- Bironas
10- Kaeding
11- Graham
12- Vinateiri
13- Hanson
14- Elam
15- Dawson
16- Lindell
17- Kasay
18- Jeff Reed
19- Nedney
20- Akers
21- Stover
22- Longwell

I'm not saying I'd take all of them over Suisham, but certainly most of them. And I certainly would have invited at least 7 others to camp to compete (had they not already had teams).

jsarno · 08-06-2008, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Of course leg strength is important, but is it more important than accuracy?

Accuracy is certainly more important. But again, but your standards, we need to go sign Morton Anderson. You can't ignore leg strength though...it ranks #2 importance in a kicker.

Quote:

I mean c'mon... with an 80 man roster we're supposed to believe that we need to bring in some warm bodies off the street to compete for a kicking job that was solid a year ago? I don't see the logic.

Note my post about people we could have not invited, cause that is certainly what we did in other cases is just bring in warm bodies. We are gonna have to agree to disagree about "solid" from a year ago. I thought it was OK, but we could not rely on him from long distance, nor could we rely on him when it mattered most. That's important. To not bring in competition means we are completely 100% satisfied with our kicking game, I was not satisfied.

Quote:

And I guess the Redskins agree it would be a waste of time since they haven't started up that mock competition yet. And since I don't know anything about kickers either I'm going to defer to their decision.

That's the best point you have made...however, you are assuming that the Skins have never made a poor decision. Let us not forget the plethera of poor kickers we have had over the years after Lohmiller.

Mattyk · 08-06-2008, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsarno

My argument has, and always will be, that Suisham has not earned to not have competition for the job.

That's funny, cause I showed you Morten Anderson you realized that your stats mean nothing? Way to stick to your guns. If your argument about the top 15 stats means anything, then you HAVE to admit that Anderson is a better kicker, and that's not going to happen. Nice big flaw in your argument there eh? Obviously Anderson is not, but the stats prove it...ouch...quite a conundrum we have here.
You also missed the point of there were only 6 kickers that had more attempts from 20-39, meaning OF COURSE Suisham will "appear" to have better numbers. When you're closer to the goal posts, then you usually have a tendancy to hit more FG's. I would have expected you to figure that out, but when you think that Suisham is a badass, then I guess you won't look at things objectively.

WOW...leg stregth is overrated?????? Might as well not do kickoffs at all then...might as well not make that a part of the game since you think it's overrated.

ps- follow along with other posts, I never once said I'd prefer Janikowski, but I did say I would welcome the competition. It wouldn't hurt.

Nope...just your weak argument.

For the record, here are the kickers I think are better or equal to Suisham in no particular order:
1- Gostkowski
2- Folk
3- Josh Brown
4- Gould
5- Crosby
6- Kris Brown
7- Scobee
8- Rackers
9- Bironas
10- Kaeding
11- Graham
12- Vinateiri
13- Hanson
14- Elam
15- Dawson
16- Lindell
17- Kasay
18- Jeff Reed
19- Nedney
20- Akers
21- Stover
22- Longwell

I'm not saying I'd take all of them over Suisham, but certainly most of them. And I certainly would have invited at least 7 others to camp to compete (had they not already had teams).

Anderson is a better kicker than Suisham. Big deal.

Nice subjective list there. Who cares.

Besides, I thought you didn't know anything about kickers and you were deferring to the Redskins scouts?

So if there was one out there worth looking at why is he not in camp right now?

You're saying you're not an expert on kickers... but you're positive there needs to be a competition? Huh?

Ruhskins · 08-06-2008, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

So now your argument is all about leg strength?

I guess you had to move on to something since I already showed you he's in the top 15 in most kicking categories.

Leg strength is overrated. By your standard Janikowski must be the best kicker in the history of the game.

This topic is now officially retarded.

Why would this topic be retarded, if during our playoff loss last season our kicker missed a pretty significant field goal?

Mattyk · 08-06-2008, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsarno

Accuracy is certainly more important. But again, but your standards, we need to go sign Morton Anderson. You can't ignore leg strength though...it ranks #2 importance in a kicker.

Note my post about people we could have not invited, cause that is certainly what we did in other cases is just bring in warm bodies. We are gonna have to agree to disagree about "solid" from a year ago. I thought it was OK, but we could not rely on him from long distance, nor could we rely on him when it mattered most. That's important. To not bring in competition means we are completely 100% satisfied with our kicking game, I was not satisfied.

That's the best point you have made...however, you are assuming that the Skins have never made a poor decision. Let us not forget the plethera of poor kickers we have had over the years after Lohmiller.

Um no, I'm not assuming that at all. But as you said we're not the experts, right?

I do remember all the kickers we've gone through which is exactly my point why we should stick with Suisham to let him continue to develop. At the end of the day I see no need to have a worthless kicking competition for a guy who was 29/35 last year, the best season we've had from a kicker since Chip left.

Mattyk · 08-06-2008, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

Why would this topic be retarded, if during our playoff loss last season our kicker missed a pretty significant field goal?

Plenty of things went wrong in that game. The game did not boil down to a missed FG. For starters we shouldn't have even been kicking a FG, we should have punched in a TD. But that's a different topic entirely.

08-06-2008, 01:34 PM	#48
DGreene28 Special Teams Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Connecticut Posts: 335	Re: We need competition for Suisham The interesting thing about Czech is he can be a very capable backup punter as well... He'd obviously be a big upgrade on kickoffs. I think the Skins have an eye on that competition over in MD and would be willing to bring either Stover or Czech in as soon as one is cut. It may be Stover the way Czech's kicking right now. __________________ Optimism can make you look stupid, but cynicism always makes you look cynical. - Calum Fisher

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We need competition for Suisham

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