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We need competition for Suisham

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Old 08-06-2008, 02:28 PM   #61
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Re: We need competition for Suisham

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Originally Posted by Mattyk72 View Post
Anderson is a better kicker than Suisham. Big deal.
Are you serious? You really believe that????

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Nice subjective list there.
Thanks.

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Besides, I thought you didn't know anything about kickers and you were deferring to the Redskins scouts?
Here is my post since you are misunderstanding my point:
Seriously????? There was just a bunch of college kickers not drafted across the country, and there was a bunch last year too, and the year before etc....are you seriously saying that there are no kickers out there???

Last I checked, we are not experts on kickers...nor are we scouts...but last I checked, the Redskins employs alot of scouts...ask them where we could find a few. Anyone will work. No one is saying to get a hall of famer to compete, just competition. Competition has never been a bad thing...ever.


I am very knowledgable with all NFL players. I am not knowledgable, and have said on numerous occasions that I am not knowledgable, when it comes to college players. I was asked who we could bring in, I basically said there are tons of college kids we could have brought in. I don't follow college, I follow NFL.

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So if there was one out there worth looking at why is he not in camp right now?
That's the million dollar question. Someone upstairs thought that Suisham is worthy of not having competition...just like someone upstairs thought that Spurrier was the next HOF coach, or that John Hall was our next kicker, or Eddie Murray, or Michael Husted, or Brett Conway were all good kickers.
When we win a super bowl, or even go deep in the playoffs, then the FO deserves for me, and everyone, not to second guess.
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Old 08-06-2008, 02:33 PM   #62
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Re: We need competition for Suisham

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Originally Posted by jsarno View Post
I'm failing to understand this logic. 81% is not bad, and is only 4% worse than Suisham, but he is MUCH better at kickoffs, and can reach the goal posts from 50+, but that doesn't matter???? I'm not saying Janikowski is better...I'm really not...I'm just saying that competition would have been welcomed. Being mediocre with a big leg is better than being slightly better than mediocre with a wet noodle leg.
We don't really disagree, but for the sake of argument, let's talk about the 4%. I don't think it's totally unreasonable to say a kicker will have 25-50 attempts per season. That's 1 or 2 more misses in a season, that's not an incredible amount, BUT what if they're big kicks? What if they're game winners? It's also the difference between being the 16/17th best kicker in the league vs. the 25th. I was trying to help Janikowski out because they trot him out for some ridiculous kicks.

Just because Janikowski can reach a 50 yarder, doesn't mean much, he only hit slightly above 50%, Suisham was 50%. I'm not saying that their leg strength is anywere near comparable, but I'm saying that a 50 yard field goal is probably 50/50 anyway. I don't think signing a guy just because he can get it there and sacrificing accuracy is worth while.

Also, the reason I removed the 50 yarders is because they were the majority of Janikowski's misses. He was 6/11 last season from 50+. I thought that would bring his 71% FG PCT up a bit, but it didn't make it that much better.

The one thing we do disagree on is that FG% isn't that big of a factor. I want the kicker to make as many FG's as possible, just because he has a big leg, doesn't mean he'll make more and I just don't see kicking into the end zone to be that important. The difference between the 20 and 25 isn't that big of a deal, it's not even that different from 20 to 30. The kick coverage and defense have to do their job. I will say, however, that there is a pretty big difference when it's the 35 or 40.

Now, I will say that having a 50 yarder be out of the question for a kicker is a little ridiculous, but I'm not a huge proponent of trotting a guy out there for a 50 yarder. First of all, the greatest kicker in Redskins history (or at least the only one who made the 70 Greatest list) is probably Mark Moseley. For his career he made 12 of 42 from 50+ yards. Last year, in the NFL, 99 FG's of 50+ yards were attempted and NFL kickers made 47 of them that's 47.4%. Therefore, you have about a 50/50 shot (unless you have Kris Brown 5-5 from 50+...ridiculous) of gaining 3 points or putting your opponent on their own 40+ yard line.

I'm almost of the opinion that a 50 yard field goal is too risky of a play, if it doesn't pay off, you're almost screwed.
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Old 08-06-2008, 02:33 PM   #63
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Re: We need competition for Suisham

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Originally Posted by Mattyk72 View Post
Um no, I'm not assuming that at all. But as you said we're not the experts, right?
You are certainly right about that. Then again, there would be no point of a redskins discussion board if we all weren't backseat qb's.

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I do remember all the kickers we've gone through which is exactly my point why we should stick with Suisham to let him continue to develop. At the end of the day I see no need to have a worthless kicking competition for a guy who was 29/35 last year, the best season we've had from a kicker since Chip left.
My only problem with that comment is the "worthless kicking competition". That is assuming there is no one out there better than Suisham, which has been my point all along. If he beats the competition, more power to him...but what if we're missing out on the next David Akers. (I know you remember him on the skins, but many probably forgot we had him and let him go).

In the end, I prefer a kicker with a stronger leg...I think we NEED a kicker with a stronger leg. But if Suisham can be consistant, and clutch, I am willing to overlook that. Ultimately I have to accept to Suisham, cause like it or not, he's our guy. I just hope in his "developement" he learns to reach the endzone on kickoffs.
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Old 08-06-2008, 02:35 PM   #64
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Re: We need competition for Suisham

That's probably the most research I've ever done for a post and it was a. about kickers and b. about a post I pretty much agreed with...LOL
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Old 08-06-2008, 02:39 PM   #65
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Re: We need competition for Suisham

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We don't really disagree, but for the sake of argument, let's talk about the 4%. I don't think it's totally unreasonable to say a kicker will have 25-50 attempts per season. That's 1 or 2 more misses in a season, that's not an incredible amount, BUT what if they're big kicks? What if they're game winners? It's also the difference between being the 16/17th best kicker in the league vs. the 25th. I was trying to help Janikowski out because they trot him out for some ridiculous kicks.

Just because Janikowski can reach a 50 yarder, doesn't mean much, he only hit slightly above 50%, Suisham was 50%. I'm not saying that their leg strength is anywere near comparable, but I'm saying that a 50 yard field goal is probably 50/50 anyway. I don't think signing a guy just because he can get it there and sacrificing accuracy is worth while.

Also, the reason I removed the 50 yarders is because they were the majority of Janikowski's misses. He was 6/11 last season from 50+. I thought that would bring his 71% FG PCT up a bit, but it didn't make it that much better.

The one thing we do disagree on is that FG% isn't that big of a factor. I want the kicker to make as many FG's as possible, just because he has a big leg, doesn't mean he'll make more and I just don't see kicking into the end zone to be that important. The difference between the 20 and 25 isn't that big of a deal, it's not even that different from 20 to 30. The kick coverage and defense have to do their job. I will say, however, that there is a pretty big difference when it's the 35 or 40.

Now, I will say that having a 50 yarder be out of the question for a kicker is a little ridiculous, but I'm not a huge proponent of trotting a guy out there for a 50 yarder. First of all, the greatest kicker in Redskins history (or at least the only one who made the 70 Greatest list) is probably Mark Moseley. For his career he made 12 of 42 from 50+ yards. Last year, in the NFL, 99 FG's of 50+ yards were attempted and NFL kickers made 47 of them that's 47.4%. Therefore, you have about a 50/50 shot (unless you have Kris Brown 5-5 from 50+...ridiculous) of gaining 3 points or putting your opponent on their own 40+ yard line.

I'm almost of the opinion that a 50 yard field goal is too risky of a play, if it doesn't pay off, you're almost screwed.
I do not think FG% is not a big deal. I do think it is.
We agree on most everything here, and you make valid points. What I will disagree with is the kickoffs. We will kickoff approx 4-6 times a game. If someone is 10 yards shorter than another, that is giving up 40-60 yards per game. I think those yards are important.

All in all, I feel like we agree on most cases.
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Old 08-06-2008, 02:43 PM   #66
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Re: We need competition for Suisham

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Originally Posted by jsarno View Post
I do not think FG% is not a big deal. I do think it is.
We agree on most everything here, and you make valid points. What I will disagree with is the kickoffs. We will kickoff approx 4-6 times a game. If someone is 10 yards shorter than another, that is giving up 40-60 yards per game. I think those yards are important.

All in all, I feel like we agree on most cases.
I think we each just put less value on both sides than the other does. I could care less if kicks are coming down at the 10 or the back of the end zone and you're willing to sacrifice accuracy for deeper kickoffs. That just is what is.

Btw, can we get some f*ckin totals on the bottom of NFL.com stat pages? I had to add every attempt and make with the num pad and calculator...weak sauce!
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Old 08-06-2008, 02:44 PM   #67
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Re: We need competition for Suisham

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Originally Posted by jdlea View Post
We don't really disagree, but for the sake of argument, let's talk about the 4%. I don't think it's totally unreasonable to say a kicker will have 25-50 attempts per season. That's 1 or 2 more misses in a season, that's not an incredible amount, BUT what if they're big kicks? What if they're game winners? It's also the difference between being the 16/17th best kicker in the league vs. the 25th. I was trying to help Janikowski out because they trot him out for some ridiculous kicks.

Just because Janikowski can reach a 50 yarder, doesn't mean much, he only hit slightly above 50%, Suisham was 50%. I'm not saying that their leg strength is anywere near comparable, but I'm saying that a 50 yard field goal is probably 50/50 anyway. I don't think signing a guy just because he can get it there and sacrificing accuracy is worth while.

Also, the reason I removed the 50 yarders is because they were the majority of Janikowski's misses. He was 6/11 last season from 50+. I thought that would bring his 71% FG PCT up a bit, but it didn't make it that much better.

The one thing we do disagree on is that FG% isn't that big of a factor. I want the kicker to make as many FG's as possible, just because he has a big leg, doesn't mean he'll make more and I just don't see kicking into the end zone to be that important. The difference between the 20 and 25 isn't that big of a deal, it's not even that different from 20 to 30. The kick coverage and defense have to do their job. I will say, however, that there is a pretty big difference when it's the 35 or 40.

Now, I will say that having a 50 yarder be out of the question for a kicker is a little ridiculous, but I'm not a huge proponent of trotting a guy out there for a 50 yarder. First of all, the greatest kicker in Redskins history (or at least the only one who made the 70 Greatest list) is probably Mark Moseley. For his career he made 12 of 42 from 50+ yards. Last year, in the NFL, 99 FG's of 50+ yards were attempted and NFL kickers made 47 of them that's 47.4%. Therefore, you have about a 50/50 shot (unless you have Kris Brown 5-5 from 50+...ridiculous) of gaining 3 points or putting your opponent on their own 40+ yard line.

I'm almost of the opinion that a 50 yard field goal is too risky of a play, if it doesn't pay off, you're almost screwed.
Good post and nice research.
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Old 08-06-2008, 03:16 PM   #68
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Re: We need competition for Suisham

Jay Feely might become available. Would you like to see him here jsarno?
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Old 08-06-2008, 03:29 PM   #69
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Re: We need competition for Suisham

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Jay Feely might become available. Would you like to see him here jsarno?
No.

It's too late now. Had this happened day 1, then yes. He had a .913% FG% last year, and .852% in 06 when he was with the Giants and the swirling winds there. He has better leg power, but I am not certain his accuracy is better since he wasn't very accurate with Atlanta in a dome. Maybe he "has it" now, but it could just be a coincidence.
If I had to choose between the two, I'd take Suisham. (note Feely was not on my list of kickers)
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Old 08-06-2008, 03:31 PM   #70
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Re: We need competition for Suisham

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Originally Posted by jdlea View Post
We don't really disagree, but for the sake of argument, let's talk about the 4%. I don't think it's totally unreasonable to say a kicker will have 25-50 attempts per season. That's 1 or 2 more misses in a season, that's not an incredible amount, BUT what if they're big kicks? What if they're game winners? It's also the difference between being the 16/17th best kicker in the league vs. the 25th. I was trying to help Janikowski out because they trot him out for some ridiculous kicks.

Just because Janikowski can reach a 50 yarder, doesn't mean much, he only hit slightly above 50%, Suisham was 50%. I'm not saying that their leg strength is anywere near comparable, but I'm saying that a 50 yard field goal is probably 50/50 anyway. I don't think signing a guy just because he can get it there and sacrificing accuracy is worth while.

Also, the reason I removed the 50 yarders is because they were the majority of Janikowski's misses. He was 6/11 last season from 50+. I thought that would bring his 71% FG PCT up a bit, but it didn't make it that much better.

The one thing we do disagree on is that FG% isn't that big of a factor. I want the kicker to make as many FG's as possible, just because he has a big leg, doesn't mean he'll make more and I just don't see kicking into the end zone to be that important. The difference between the 20 and 25 isn't that big of a deal, it's not even that different from 20 to 30. The kick coverage and defense have to do their job. I will say, however, that there is a pretty big difference when it's the 35 or 40.

Now, I will say that having a 50 yarder be out of the question for a kicker is a little ridiculous, but I'm not a huge proponent of trotting a guy out there for a 50 yarder. First of all, the greatest kicker in Redskins history (or at least the only one who made the 70 Greatest list) is probably Mark Moseley. For his career he made 12 of 42 from 50+ yards. Last year, in the NFL, 99 FG's of 50+ yards were attempted and NFL kickers made 47 of them that's 47.4%. Therefore, you have about a 50/50 shot (unless you have Kris Brown 5-5 from 50+...ridiculous) of gaining 3 points or putting your opponent on their own 40+ yard line.

I'm almost of the opinion that a 50 yard field goal is too risky of a play, if it doesn't pay off, you're almost screwed.
I agree with you here for sure. But at the end of a half/game its nice to have the driver in the bag and break out the big dog. I feel with Suishham all we have is a 6 iron. I like Suisham though, he just missed a big one in the playoffs vs Seattle and it seemed to kill us momentum wise...
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Old 08-06-2008, 04:00 PM   #71
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Re: We need competition for Suisham

My 2 cents.

IMO Suisham is average at best.

Field Goal %: He was tied for 23 last year. Even missed an extra point which while not a big deal there was 20+ kickers last year that didn't.

I also don't like the fact that anything over 45+ yards is iffy and we wouldn't want to try anything 50+ yards unless we were forced to. There are always a couple of games that come down to that last drive and knowing your kicker can't hit from long range makes it that much tougher to try and get that extra 10 yards with time running out.

Leg Strength: Suisham is definitely lacking here. We were in the bottom of the league on TBs and the other teams starting field position. Starting at the 20 and starting at the 35 does make a big difference to your defense. Or even better being able to pin them inside the 20 which we never had to worry about.

I also think they could easily free up a spot for competition if they wanted to, but they obviously don't want to at this time anyway.
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Old 08-06-2008, 04:34 PM   #72
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Re: We need competition for Suisham

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Originally Posted by jsarno View Post
No.

It's too late now. Had this happened day 1, then yes. He had a .913% FG% last year, and .852% in 06 when he was with the Giants and the swirling winds there. He has better leg power, but I am not certain his accuracy is better since he wasn't very accurate with Atlanta in a dome. Maybe he "has it" now, but it could just be a coincidence.
If I had to choose between the two, I'd take Suisham. (note Feely was not on my list of kickers)
I don't get it? You wanted competition but you wouldn't have brought in Feeley? A proven kicker in this league. Basically you wanted us to somehow get one of your chosen kickers you listed to compete or a total rookie who might be awful.

The problem is, and you have ignored this argument basically, is that taking up a spot FOR A KICKER simply to have a competition is silly. It takes a valuable roster spot that we need desperately away for no good reason. Either Suisham does good or he doesn't. If not we go sign someone else. What the heck does competition do for a kicker really anyways? Either the guy can kick or he can't. They don't kick against each other. It is an individual endeavor.
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Old 08-06-2008, 04:57 PM   #73
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Re: We need competition for Suisham

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I don't get it? You wanted competition but you wouldn't have brought in Feeley? A proven kicker in this league. Basically you wanted us to somehow get one of your chosen kickers you listed to compete or a total rookie who might be awful.
You don't get it, cause you didn't read what I said...here it is again:
Quote:
It's too late now. Had this happened day 1, then yes.
That is saying that YES I would have welcomed Feely from day one. I have said in other posts that I would have welcomed a college kicker. What I am saying is that right now, at this moment in time, 2:48MST on August 6th, no, bringing in Feely to compete is not wise. Is that specific enough for you?
You post makes no sense. Please go back and read the other posts cause you seem like you're jumping into a conversation not knowing what you're talking about especially when my last post JUST SAID that I would have welcomed Feely.


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The problem is, and you have ignored this argument basically, is that taking up a spot FOR A KICKER simply to have a competition is silly.
I am one of the few here that doesn't think it's a useless competition (yet again something I have already said that you missed). Suisham did not end on a good note, nor has he started this year on a good note.
When Romo botched the snap for a chip shot FG vs seattle a couple years ago, did the Cowboys say "no biggy, he'll still be our holder", or did they change things up?
What you have ignored is that I already listed 5 spots that we easily didn't have to bring in and could have used it to find a better kicker. If no one could beat Suisham, then so be it. Doesn't change the fact that just about every team has competition at kicker except us.

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It takes a valuable roster spot that we need desperately away for no good reason.
No it doesn't...see above.

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Either Suisham does good or he doesn't. If not we go sign someone else. What the heck does competition do for a kicker really anyways? Either the guy can kick or he can't. They don't kick against each other. It is an individual endeavor.
By that logic, why do we have any competition at all at ANY position? It's not like 2 Strong safties go against each other either...they have to play at different times, and the judgement is subjective. So why bother having competition at any position if you truly by into the notion "either they can play or they can't".

Maybe cause someone is actually better than the other????

Remember this comment...nothing ventured, nothing gained.
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Old 08-06-2008, 07:09 PM   #74
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Re: We need competition for Suisham

ugh my head hurts
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Old 08-06-2008, 09:55 PM   #75
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Re: We need competition for Suisham

Look there are so many other issues with us other thn finding competion for a guy who went 29/35 and missed 1 kick in the HOF game. IF he keeps missing 30 yrd kicks this saturday then you might consider bringing in competion but not now.
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