Joe2 Legacy2 will be?

Mattyk · 08-14-2008, 02:30 PM

It's a new era, time to move forward. JLC must be bored.

hurrykaine · 08-14-2008, 02:30 PM

Moderately Successful. I can see how some might consider the lack of a SB title to mean a failure. I wouldn't go that far. Gibbs has to be commended for:
1. Assembling a talented team around a nucleus of character guys
2. Going after some great draft choices (Vinny also deserving of credit here)
3. Keeping the team together after ST's death
4. Two playoff appearances

On the other hand, he has to be criticized for:
1. Sub-par offensive performance by the team over last 4 seasons - Gibbs was in charge of the offense.
2. Conservative playcalling during games and restraining Al Saunders' play calling freedom
3. Inconsistent team showings (we would lose regularly to bad teams, e.g. Baltimore in 04, Cleveland in 04, Oakland in 05, Tennessee in 06, etc) - players deserve blame for this too, but Gibbs should've had them ready to beat up on these types of teams.
4. Stubborn reliance on Brunell even when he was injured and/or ineffective
5. Not being a threat in the playoffs even when we made it

The sad part about that last point is few people other than skins fans will remember the 04-07 skins as a playoff team even though we made it to the post season twice - we just weren't threatening enough in the playoffs (despite beating Tampa).

I'm glad Joe stepped down because we never had a chance of being a championship team under him during his second stint. He knew it too. Zorn might not get us there either, but at least its looking good so far and the players seem to have a degree of enthusiasm markedly higher than in previous years and are looking like they've bought into his scheme and coaching style.

sportscurmudgeon · 08-14-2008, 02:38 PM

If you measure "Gibbs 2.0" by the standards of "Gibbs 1.0", then the second coming was pretty much a failure. If "Gibbs 1.0" had not gotten him voted into the HoF, then "Gibbs 2.0" would not have polished his resume in any way; he'd be on the outside looking in for the rest of eternity.

If you measure Gibbs 2.0 by the standard of Steve Spurrier/Norv Turner performances, then "Gibbs 2.0" is a roaring success.

Is the glass half-full? Is the glass half-empty?

Or is the glass twice as big as it needs to be???

Ruhskins · 08-14-2008, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hurrykaine

Moderately Successful. I can see how some might consider the lack of a SB title to mean a failure. I wouldn't go that far. Gibbs has to be commended for:
1. Assembling a talented team around a nucleus of character guys
2. Going after some great draft choices (Vinny also deserving of credit here)
3. Keeping the team together after ST's death
4. Two playoff appearances

On the other hand, he has to be criticized for:
1. Sub-par offensive performance by the team over last 4 seasons - Gibbs was in charge of the offense.
2. Conservative playcalling during games and restraining Al Saunders' play calling freedom
3. Inconsistent team showings (we would lose regularly to bad teams, e.g. Baltimore in 04, Cleveland in 04, Oakland in 05, Tennessee in 06, etc) - players deserve blame for this too, but Gibbs should've had them ready to beat up on these types of teams.
4. Stubborn reliance on Brunell even when he was injured and/or ineffective
5. Not being a threat in the playoffs even when we made it

The sad part about that last point is few people other than skins fans will remember the 04-07 skins as a playoff team even though we made it to the post season twice - we just weren't threatening enough in the playoffs (despite beating Tampa).

I'm glad Joe stepped down because we never had a chance of being a championship team under him during his second stint. He knew it too. Zorn might not get us there either, but at least its looking good so far and the players seem to have a degree of enthusiasm markedly higher than in previous years and are looking like they've bought into his scheme and coaching style.

I would also criticize JG bringing in Saunders and installing a brand new complex offense the year after we made our first run to the playoffs. I believe that was the year that we were hyped up by the media and ended up 5-11.

irish · 08-14-2008, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacks42

Im a Gibbs fan, but his record speaks for itself.
1. He won less than 50% of his games in 4 years.
2. Won 1 of 3 playoff games, and you can chalk most of that up to the D.
3. He (the skins) spent a ton of money on players and coaches.
4. He couldnt drop Brunell, when he was hurting the team.
5. Couldnt put together a team that didnt have a bunch of motion penalties, false starts, and delay of games.

If this were any other coach, everyone would say that he was garbage. This is a "what have you done for me lately" league, and he didnt do much the second time around. But heck, he had a team that fought thier guts out.

This is an honest and accurate assessment of Gibbs 2.0. Like someone in another post said, in comparison to Norv and OBC Gibbs 2 looked pretty good but in comparison to Gibbs 1 it didnt look so hot. Gibbs was not brought back to out do Norv & OBC, he was brought back to repeat Gibbs 1 and he didnt come close.

skinsfan69 · 08-14-2008, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

It's a new era, time to move forward. JLC must be bored.

Thank you! I sure didn't agree with a lot of what Gibbs 2 did. But he sure did bring us back to respectability. Anyone remember games in 03 when Dallas shut us out at home? We were a 2nd rate team back then. But it's time to move on now. Joe is gone now and I really like what Zorn is doing now. Time to turn the page!

SmootSmack · 08-14-2008, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

If you measure "Gibbs 2.0" by the standards of "Gibbs 1.0", then the second coming was pretty much a failure. If "Gibbs 1.0" had not gotten him voted into the HoF, then "Gibbs 2.0" would not have polished his resume in any way; he'd be on the outside looking in for the rest of eternity.

If you measure Gibbs 2.0 by the standard of Steve Spurrier/Norv Turner performances, then "Gibbs 2.0" is a roaring success.

Is the glass half-full? Is the glass half-empty?

Or is the glass twice as big as it needs to be???

I agree with the notion of just moving on. But one final question. At the end of the day should Gibbs be measured as Joe Gibbs, or Gibbs 1.0 and Gibbs 2.0?

Stacks42 · 08-14-2008, 03:09 PM

Its kinda like when michael jordan came back from retirement to bring the wizards to glory. The game passed him by, all the innovations that he brought to the game had been further innovated, the game had passed him by. It was time for him to step away.

freddyg12 · 08-14-2008, 03:09 PM

This is a disturbing, scary thought, but the washpost guys brought it up on comcast a couple weeks back; what is the team gonna be like if Zorn is 1-4 after 5 games? Will they rally behind him or will it be like pettibon's lone season?

The reason I pose the question is that Gibbs may be viewed as a success based on how Zorn does. If Zorn loses badly, it will make Gibbs look good. If Zorn wins a lot, you can point to Gibbs' roster moves, e.g. Campbell. If we don't make the playoffs for a few years, people will look back at Gibbs' years as the last time we made it.

Bottom line, Zorn will have to stay here & win a while to diminish what Gibbs did and make people forget those years.

Hog1 · 08-14-2008, 03:10 PM

I personally believe he left us the legacy JZ, and the fan base is currently enjoying, and is reponsible for the about face, and maturation of Danny, and the VIN

hurrykaine · 08-14-2008, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I agree with the notion of just moving on. But one final question. At the end of the day should Gibbs be measured as Joe Gibbs, or Gibbs 1.0 and Gibbs 2.0?

Good question. He should be measured only as Gibbs 1.0 for the football history books. That his bust sits in Canton is testament enough. However, he should only be measured as Gibbs 2.0 if you're considering how to make this current team a championship caliber team.

SouperMeister · 08-14-2008, 04:11 PM

Trading up for Jason Campbell will be the centerpiece of the Gibbs 2.0 legacy, and I'm convinced that Campbell will develop into the franchise QB that Gibbs envisioned. While I was critical of Gibbs and conservative playcalling during the 2nd run, he brought stability and maturity to the organization, as reflected by Snyder's more prudent approach during the past two offseasons.

FRPLG · 08-14-2008, 04:52 PM

The fact that JLC saw fit to write what is basically an article on what the old coach did before the new coach has done anything shows to me how much of a hardon he has for poopooing Gibbs. I don't think he is totally wrong is some respects but I think his general attitude towards Gibbs 2.0 is simply skewed far to negatively. He says the team was in the dumps last year and then when Collins comes in and get the offense going and we win 4 straight it is only because of the Defense.

I do wonder where this blog posting came from. It seems to have come out of nowhere for no reason.

charliebrown88 · 08-14-2008, 05:18 PM

I agree that Gibbs 2.0 was moderate in success. I think people underestimated how far the franchise and roster had fallen before he returned. Expecting Gibbs as great as he was in 1.0 to immediately produce a Super Bowl champion in three years with what he inherited would be like turning Fat Albert into Carl Lewis in three years, a bit too much to expect. I think in trying too hard to do this, Gibbs may have made some big mistakes, Sticking with Brunnell too long, Arch, LLoyd, Ultra-Conservative Offense that neutralized good moves, Campbell, Cooley, the 04 FA class, Taylor and Landry.

The one positive that I think people overlook in Gibbs 2.0 was that he also got us back to playing tough within the division. During Norv, Shotty and Spurrier we let division opponents smack us silly on the road and at home. Gibbs got us playing better within the division both on the road and at home. This is the first key in becoming an elite team.

I think Gibbs 2.0 may parallel what happened with Parcells at Dallas, he may indeed enable the next coach to excel and succeed in what he created as a foundation and left behind.

JWsleep · 08-14-2008, 08:09 PM

Now, I love Gibbs--the 3 Superbowls while I was growing up will forever make him one of my all time football heroes. But I think JLac is correct: if it was ANYONE but Gibbs coaching for the last four years, we would not be having this debate. And that indicates that we are not judging Gibbs 2 by football standards; that is, we are not considering how the football team actually played during the last 4 years. We are thinking of RFK rocking, Riggins running, Monk and Clark catching, etc. But that is not the right way to evaluate the last 4 years. Look at what happened on the football field. The team, particularly on offense, was just not that good. And there were too many penalties, turnovers, 3 and outs, failures to protect the lead (how many games did we lose after leading at halftime? Think about it.), failures to manage the clock, failure to get 7 in the red zone, failure to stretch the field reliably, etc. That's not to say it never happened, but not enough to make the teams of the last 4 years good teams. And given that we won lots of our games because of stout D, and that Williams basically had free reign over there, it's hard to look objectively at Gibbs 2 and say it was a success, even a moderate one. And all this is not even taking into account the massive amount of money spent.

I was a stalwart supporter throughout Gibbs 2--I much prefer to accentuate the positive while the season is on (It just makes things feel worse, IMO, if we all start ragging on the team we love). But looking back, it's the memory of Gibbs 1 that comes to mind, and that distorts my view of Gibbs 2. Realistically, it was a failure.

Now, he did get us some good players. But he had some terrible ones in there as well. AA, B Lloyd, the trade for the RB who never played (what was his name again?), and he traded away tons of draft picks. He explicitly said he was going to build in free agency and not the draft. I'm not sure that was good strategy. We can debate this, of course, and there were some great moves, no doubt (Cooley, for example). But was it really so great? Again, if it wasn't Gibbs, what would you think?

I am NOT a Gibbs hater--go back and check my posts, if you want. But I can admit it now in retrospect: Gibbs 2 was a failure.

PS I don't think this is a dead issue. One, JG is done, and we're considering the legacy. When are we supposed to that, during his tenure? Two, we want to have a reasonable yardstick for Zorn. If we hold him to JG 1 standards, he's not long for this team, most likely. If we give him some slack now and build with him (and that means dealing with 6-10 or worse, perhaps), then things look different. So it's a live issue.

(Wow. Long post. Sorry!)

08-14-2008, 02:30 PM	#16
Mattyk ‎\m/ Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 40 Posts: 72,636	Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be? It's a new era, time to move forward. JLC must be bored. __________________ Support The Warpath! \| Warpath Shop

08-14-2008, 02:30 PM	#17
hurrykaine Impact Rookie Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Washington, D.C. Age: 39 Posts: 762	Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be? Moderately Successful. I can see how some might consider the lack of a SB title to mean a failure. I wouldn't go that far. Gibbs has to be commended for: 1. Assembling a talented team around a nucleus of character guys 2. Going after some great draft choices (Vinny also deserving of credit here) 3. Keeping the team together after ST's death 4. Two playoff appearances On the other hand, he has to be criticized for: 1. Sub-par offensive performance by the team over last 4 seasons - Gibbs was in charge of the offense. 2. Conservative playcalling during games and restraining Al Saunders' play calling freedom 3. Inconsistent team showings (we would lose regularly to bad teams, e.g. Baltimore in 04, Cleveland in 04, Oakland in 05, Tennessee in 06, etc) - players deserve blame for this too, but Gibbs should've had them ready to beat up on these types of teams. 4. Stubborn reliance on Brunell even when he was injured and/or ineffective 5. Not being a threat in the playoffs even when we made it The sad part about that last point is few people other than skins fans will remember the 04-07 skins as a playoff team even though we made it to the post season twice - we just weren't threatening enough in the playoffs (despite beating Tampa). I'm glad Joe stepped down because we never had a chance of being a championship team under him during his second stint. He knew it too. Zorn might not get us there either, but at least its looking good so far and the players seem to have a degree of enthusiasm markedly higher than in previous years and are looking like they've bought into his scheme and coaching style.

08-14-2008, 02:38 PM	#18
sportscurmudgeon Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,159	Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be? If you measure "Gibbs 2.0" by the standards of "Gibbs 1.0", then the second coming was pretty much a failure. If "Gibbs 1.0" had not gotten him voted into the HoF, then "Gibbs 2.0" would not have polished his resume in any way; he'd be on the outside looking in for the rest of eternity. If you measure Gibbs 2.0 by the standard of Steve Spurrier/Norv Turner performances, then "Gibbs 2.0" is a roaring success. Is the glass half-full? Is the glass half-empty? Or is the glass twice as big as it needs to be??? __________________ The Sports Curmudgeon www.sportscurmudgeon.com But don't get me wrong, I love sports...

08-14-2008, 03:09 PM	#23
Stacks42 Impact Rookie Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Arlington Va. Age: 36 Posts: 650	Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be? Its kinda like when michael jordan came back from retirement to bring the wizards to glory. The game passed him by, all the innovations that he brought to the game had been further innovated, the game had passed him by. It was time for him to step away. __________________ The Mayor of Acrobat

08-14-2008, 03:09 PM	#24
freddyg12 Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,540	Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be? This is a disturbing, scary thought, but the washpost guys brought it up on comcast a couple weeks back; what is the team gonna be like if Zorn is 1-4 after 5 games? Will they rally behind him or will it be like pettibon's lone season? The reason I pose the question is that Gibbs may be viewed as a success based on how Zorn does. If Zorn loses badly, it will make Gibbs look good. If Zorn wins a lot, you can point to Gibbs' roster moves, e.g. Campbell. If we don't make the playoffs for a few years, people will look back at Gibbs' years as the last time we made it. Bottom line, Zorn will have to stay here & win a while to diminish what Gibbs did and make people forget those years.

08-14-2008, 03:10 PM	#25
Hog1 Quietly Dominating the East Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Naples, Florida Posts: 8,372	Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be? I personally believe he left us the legacy JZ, and the fan base is currently enjoying, and is reponsible for the about face, and maturation of Danny, and the VIN __________________ Goodbye Sean..........Vaya Con Dios thankyou Joe....... Win! Always win! By fair means or foul, by soft words and hard deeds... by treachery, by cunning, by malpractice... but always win--Edward Teach

08-14-2008, 04:11 PM	#27
SouperMeister Playmaker Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Leesburg, VA Age: 48 Posts: 2,917	Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be? Trading up for Jason Campbell will be the centerpiece of the Gibbs 2.0 legacy, and I'm convinced that Campbell will develop into the franchise QB that Gibbs envisioned. While I was critical of Gibbs and conservative playcalling during the 2nd run, he brought stability and maturity to the organization, as reflected by Snyder's more prudent approach during the past two offseasons.

08-14-2008, 04:52 PM	#28
FRPLG Franchise Player Join Date: May 2004 Age: 34 Posts: 9,232	Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be? The fact that JLC saw fit to write what is basically an article on what the old coach did before the new coach has done anything shows to me how much of a hardon he has for poopooing Gibbs. I don't think he is totally wrong is some respects but I think his general attitude towards Gibbs 2.0 is simply skewed far to negatively. He says the team was in the dumps last year and then when Collins comes in and get the offense going and we win 4 straight it is only because of the Defense. I do wonder where this blog posting came from. It seems to have come out of nowhere for no reason.

08-14-2008, 05:18 PM	#29
charliebrown88 Camp Scrub Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 4	Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be? I agree that Gibbs 2.0 was moderate in success. I think people underestimated how far the franchise and roster had fallen before he returned. Expecting Gibbs as great as he was in 1.0 to immediately produce a Super Bowl champion in three years with what he inherited would be like turning Fat Albert into Carl Lewis in three years, a bit too much to expect. I think in trying too hard to do this, Gibbs may have made some big mistakes, Sticking with Brunnell too long, Arch, LLoyd, Ultra-Conservative Offense that neutralized good moves, Campbell, Cooley, the 04 FA class, Taylor and Landry. The one positive that I think people overlook in Gibbs 2.0 was that he also got us back to playing tough within the division. During Norv, Shotty and Spurrier we let division opponents smack us silly on the road and at home. Gibbs got us playing better within the division both on the road and at home. This is the first key in becoming an elite team. I think Gibbs 2.0 may parallel what happened with Parcells at Dallas, he may indeed enable the next coach to excel and succeed in what he created as a foundation and left behind.

08-14-2008, 08:09 PM	#30
JWsleep Propane and propane accessories Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Houston, TX Age: 44 Posts: 4,576	Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be? Now, I love Gibbs--the 3 Superbowls while I was growing up will forever make him one of my all time football heroes. But I think JLac is correct: if it was ANYONE but Gibbs coaching for the last four years, we would not be having this debate. And that indicates that we are not judging Gibbs 2 by football standards; that is, we are not considering how the football team actually played during the last 4 years. We are thinking of RFK rocking, Riggins running, Monk and Clark catching, etc. But that is not the right way to evaluate the last 4 years. Look at what happened on the football field. The team, particularly on offense, was just not that good. And there were too many penalties, turnovers, 3 and outs, failures to protect the lead (how many games did we lose after leading at halftime? Think about it.), failures to manage the clock, failure to get 7 in the red zone, failure to stretch the field reliably, etc. That's not to say it never happened, but not enough to make the teams of the last 4 years good teams. And given that we won lots of our games because of stout D, and that Williams basically had free reign over there, it's hard to look objectively at Gibbs 2 and say it was a success, even a moderate one. And all this is not even taking into account the massive amount of money spent. I was a stalwart supporter throughout Gibbs 2--I much prefer to accentuate the positive while the season is on (It just makes things feel worse, IMO, if we all start ragging on the team we love). But looking back, it's the memory of Gibbs 1 that comes to mind, and that distorts my view of Gibbs 2. Realistically, it was a failure. Now, he did get us some good players. But he had some terrible ones in there as well. AA, B Lloyd, the trade for the RB who never played (what was his name again?), and he traded away tons of draft picks. He explicitly said he was going to build in free agency and not the draft. I'm not sure that was good strategy. We can debate this, of course, and there were some great moves, no doubt (Cooley, for example). But was it really so great? Again, if it wasn't Gibbs, what would you think? I am NOT a Gibbs hater--go back and check my posts, if you want. But I can admit it now in retrospect: Gibbs 2 was a failure. PS I don't think this is a dead issue. One, JG is done, and we're considering the legacy. When are we supposed to that, during his tenure? Two, we want to have a reasonable yardstick for Zorn. If we hold him to JG 1 standards, he's not long for this team, most likely. If we give him some slack now and build with him (and that means dealing with 6-10 or worse, perhaps), then things look different. So it's a live issue. (Wow. Long post. Sorry!) __________________ Hail from Houston!

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Joe2 Legacy2 will be?

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