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Old 08-15-2008, 07:55 AM   #31
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Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?

Smootsmack poses a most interesting question here. I think that Joe Gibbs was deservedly inducted into the Pro Football HoF for what I call "Gibbs 1.0". And Joe Gibbs should be honored for the accomplishments that earned him that place in the HoF.

At the same time, I think fans need to remember Joe Gibbs as an amalgam of "Gibbs 1.0" and "Gibbs 2.0" because of the historical perspective that it puts on the game of pro football. When he brought back many of his former assistants, he and they could not work the same magic. It's not because they somehow turned into a bunch of dunderheads in the intervening years; it's because the game changed and they didn't because most were out of the game for a while.

This is important when you think about the NFL in historical terms and try to evaluate and compare "the way things are now" with "the way things used to be".

I think that an objective view of "Gibbs 1.0" as compared to "Gibbs 2.0" has some important lessons that people ought to think upon.
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Old 08-15-2008, 09:05 AM   #32
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Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?

As a coach he was relatively bad in his second stint. When we did well, it certainly wasn't his offense that did it. The defense completely run by G Will is what took us places. The defense kept the score low enough that we could win games even with our anemic offense. The clock management skills were just bad -- Christ, he didn't even know the rules of the game. Calling two time outs in his 4th year back? He also stuck with players that didn't give us the best chance to win. Brunell was more or less terrible while in Washington. However, he was a great leader. He's always been a good leader and that's something you don't lose. I couldn't think of a better figure to lead the skins through the Sean Taylor tragedy. I liked Joe Gibbs as a coach every day but Sunday. He was just too conservative for todays NFL.

Now, if we look at him in the team president role, he was very, very good. Spurriers teams were awful from a talent standpoint. Trung Candidate, Shane Matthews, etc. Gibbs came in and made some excellent draft picks and FA signings. I think Gibbs set this team up in a nice position via his player acquisitions, but we need a more adept coach to take us anywhere deep in the playoffs.
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Old 08-15-2008, 09:49 AM   #33
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Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?

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As a coach he was relatively bad in his second stint. When we did well, it certainly wasn't his offense that did it. The defense completely run by G Will is what took us places. The defense kept the score low enough that we could win games even with our anemic offense. The clock management skills were just bad -- Christ, he didn't even know the rules of the game. Calling two time outs in his 4th year back? He also stuck with players that didn't give us the best chance to win. Brunell was more or less terrible while in Washington. However, he was a great leader. He's always been a good leader and that's something you don't lose. I couldn't think of a better figure to lead the skins through the Sean Taylor tragedy. I liked Joe Gibbs as a coach every day but Sunday. He was just too conservative for todays NFL.

Now, if we look at him in the team president role, he was very, very good. Spurriers teams were awful from a talent standpoint. Trung Candidate, Shane Matthews, etc. Gibbs came in and made some excellent draft picks and FA signings. I think Gibbs set this team up in a nice position via his player acquisitions, but we need a more adept coach to take us anywhere deep in the playoffs.
Was Gibbs involved in the Lloyd/Archuleta signings? If so I think that tarnishes his role as team president.
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Old 08-15-2008, 10:14 AM   #34
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Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?

His legacy will be drafting Jason Campbell.
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Old 08-15-2008, 10:30 AM   #35
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Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?

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Now, I love Gibbs--the 3 Superbowls while I was growing up will forever make him one of my all time football heroes. But I think JLac is correct: if it was ANYONE but Gibbs coaching for the last four years, we would not be having this debate. And that indicates that we are not judging Gibbs 2 by football standards; that is, we are not considering how the football team actually played during the last 4 years. We are thinking of RFK rocking, Riggins running, Monk and Clark catching, etc. But that is not the right way to evaluate the last 4 years. Look at what happened on the football field. The team, particularly on offense, was just not that good. And there were too many penalties, turnovers, 3 and outs, failures to protect the lead (how many games did we lose after leading at halftime? Think about it.), failures to manage the clock, failure to get 7 in the red zone, failure to stretch the field reliably, etc. That's not to say it never happened, but not enough to make the teams of the last 4 years good teams. And given that we won lots of our games because of stout D, and that Williams basically had free reign over there, it's hard to look objectively at Gibbs 2 and say it was a success, even a moderate one. And all this is not even taking into account the massive amount of money spent.

I was a stalwart supporter throughout Gibbs 2--I much prefer to accentuate the positive while the season is on (It just makes things feel worse, IMO, if we all start ragging on the team we love). But looking back, it's the memory of Gibbs 1 that comes to mind, and that distorts my view of Gibbs 2. Realistically, it was a failure.

Now, he did get us some good players. But he had some terrible ones in there as well. AA, B Lloyd, the trade for the RB who never played (what was his name again?), and he traded away tons of draft picks. He explicitly said he was going to build in free agency and not the draft. I'm not sure that was good strategy. We can debate this, of course, and there were some great moves, no doubt (Cooley, for example). But was it really so great? Again, if it wasn't Gibbs, what would you think?

I am NOT a Gibbs hater--go back and check my posts, if you want. But I can admit it now in retrospect: Gibbs 2 was a failure.

PS I don't think this is a dead issue. One, JG is done, and we're considering the legacy. When are we supposed to that, during his tenure? Two, we want to have a reasonable yardstick for Zorn. If we hold him to JG 1 standards, he's not long for this team, most likely. If we give him some slack now and build with him (and that means dealing with 6-10 or worse, perhaps), then things look different. So it's a live issue.

(Wow. Long post. Sorry!)
I don't think people appreciate how disfunctional the redskins had gotten by the end of Spurrier. I was at the last Dallas game in which they were shutout and they literally couldn't get the various personell in and lined up before the playclock expired. They were dreadful.

Also, in the eleven seasons that Gibbs was gone the Redskins went to the playoffs once. Gibbs improved on that by 100% in the four years that followed. In addition think he gave the front office a better perspective on how to run an organization. Lastly, Gibbs brought physicality back to the team. Gibbs didn't win every game but I can't think of a single one in which they were out-hit. Teams around the league thought of the Redskins as soft during his absence - 2001 with Marty being the one exception.

I also think that Greg Williams deserves a lot of credit for the restoration of the defensive culture that some now seem to take for granted. I guess I've been watching long enough to still be a little bit surprised when four or five defenders swarm the ball and actually tackle as oppossed to what was routine in the past - broken tackle after broken tackle.
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Old 08-15-2008, 10:47 AM   #36
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Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?

How can people talk about Gibbs 2 being a failure? That makes NO sense whatsoever!!!

When Gibbs 1 left he left behind hall of famers Green and Monk. The Hogs, and Clarke should be in too. Hey, possibly Brian Mitchell, who is something like 3rd all time in yardage in the NFL! Not to mention Charles Mann was a damn good pass rusher too! When Gibbs 1 left we were a team. We were a team that no matter if we were getting beat badly by the 49er's in the play offs or getting owned by the Giants in the Championship Game during 1986 or losing our first game to the Cowboys................we were a team that never quit. That never gave up. We were a team that took shit like Buddy Ryan's bodybag comments VERY SERIOUSLY and went back to kick the crap out of them later. We were a team that took care of each other.

When Gibbs came back he got a team that didn't care. Did everyone here forget about Dallas running up the score on us in 2003? Troy Hambrick had 200 yards on the ground against us! Troy Hambrick for Pete's Sake!!! How in the hell do you let someone as bad as him rack up 200 yards! THAT IS BULLSHIT!!! You know our players didn't give a crap about that game. You know they didn't care that we were playing Dallas. For Hambrick to get those yards and for our quarterback to have a zero passer rating; our guys quit. They quit on us and on each other. Smoot said it best when he said, "Half the team didn't show up to play today".

The team also set a franchise record for penalties in one year too!

When Gibbs got back here thats what he had to work with. I won't forget the first thing Gibbs did when he got here. He cut Jeremiah Trotter. He cut him just a few weeks after he got here too. Jeremiah then got picked back up by the Eagles and he immediately said, "I've always bled green". He Got rid of someone that didn't care to be here.

Next up was Champ Bailey. I was at the last game of the 2003 season. My seats are at the Redskins Tunnel and in the second quarter, on the other side of the field, I saw something that nearly made me puke. McNabb threw one of his infamous screens to a running back and then Champ Bailey came up...................and escorted the guy into the end zone. Touchdown Philly! I thought no way! I saw that wrong! They were far away! I missed that play! When I saw the replays later, I knew I had seen it right. Gibbs got rid of his ass! And got someone that is a staple in our offense! GREAT MOVE GIBBS!

Gibbs did a massive overhaul on our roster for the first two years. He was just trying to fix what WAS a very tough and elite franchise in the NFL. He was just trying to get the Redskins back to where they were when he left the first time. He cut Jesse Armstead and brought in Marcus Washington. Cut Iffy Ohalete and brought in Sean Taylor (RIP Sean). Traded Champ Bailey and brought Portis and Shawn Springs. Added Cornelius Griffen to the D-line. It goes on and on. It took him two years to over haul this team.

In his third year here. He had a CRUD load of injuries to deal with. And.............that sucked! He finally gets his team built, but they all get hurt. His last year. He again had a CRUD load of injuries to deal with and then his best player gets murdered. Gibbs wasn't going to lose like that again! He got this team to the play offs.

For those of you that think Gibbs 2 was a failure tell me one other team IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME that lost their starting linebacker, starting cornerback, starting quarterback, two starting offensive lineman and their starting Safety (Gone but not forgotten). Tell me one other team that made the play offs with all of that crap happening to them! Just one!

Gibbs wasn't a failure. He did something that seemed impossible. His team did it. His team never quit. They never gave up. They took care of each other. He's got this team playing hard against Dallas again. Heck, He embarrassed Dallas during their 'Ring of Shame' game. Embarrassed them again last year by holding them to only one rushing yard. This team went down to Minnesota, who was number one in the league against the run, and with back up lineman in there ran the ball effectively. He had this team, who had just come back from burying their friend and teammate beat the crap out of the Bears. Landry jacked up Muhammed too! He must have been angry about something...............And before it was over he went back to the Meadowlands and beat the superbowl champs in their own house. What else can you ask for? What!? A Superbowl? Maybe this year. Lets see if we can stay healthy and see what this team can do. And see what Zorn can do with it. Just don't call Gibbs 2 a failure.
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Old 08-15-2008, 11:14 AM   #37
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Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?

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How can people talk about Gibbs 2 being a failure? That makes NO sense whatsoever!!! They took care of each other. He's got this team playing hard against Dallas again. Heck, He embarrassed Dallas during their 'Ring of Shame' game. Embarrassed them again last year by holding them to only one rushing yard. This team went down to Minnesota, who was number one in the league against the run, and with back up lineman in there ran the ball effectively.
Amen to this whole post. I dont care about wins and losses as much as I do about having a hard nosed tough team that has earned respect. That is what Gibbs 2 did for me. He brought back respect to DC.

The worst day for me as a redskin fan was playing at Dallass our Qb got sacked and then dragged by his jersy as the DE strutted to the crowd - and the OL did NOTHING to stop it!!!!. I almost threw up. I was disgusted and pissed.... for years.

No way on earth that happens now. Gibbs for all his faults is one tough SOB who holds himself accountable - that reflected in his team and why I am so happy w/ the Skins again. If you worry about wins and losses then IMHO you are close to a fair weather fan (I am not calling anyone out - do not take offense). As a fan I am much more concerned about the personna of our team: Are we tough, do other teams loath to play us regardless of record? are we classy? Is our house a hard place to play? Answer yes to those 3 questions and I will be happy regardless of record.

That is was LaCalifornia just doesnt get. We arent NY fans or Philthadelphia fans - we are skins fans, stout in the foulest of weather, and populators of the loudest stadium in the NFC East.
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Old 08-15-2008, 01:36 PM   #38
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Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?

Nice work Miller, and Kope!
I think that if you could get JZ alone, he would echo many of these same sentiments. That he has inherited a "work in progress", unfinished by his predecessor. That he has inherited the building blocks of greatness.
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Old 08-15-2008, 02:21 PM   #39
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Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?

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I don't think people appreciate how disfunctional the redskins had gotten by the end of Spurrier. I was at the last Dallas game in which they were shutout and they literally couldn't get the various personell in and lined up before the playclock expired. They were dreadful.

Also, in the eleven seasons that Gibbs was gone the Redskins went to the playoffs once. Gibbs improved on that by 100% in the four years that followed. In addition think he gave the front office a better perspective on how to run an organization. Lastly, Gibbs brought physicality back to the team. Gibbs didn't win every game but I can't think of a single one in which they were out-hit. Teams around the league thought of the Redskins as soft during his absence - 2001 with Marty being the one exception.

I also think that Greg Williams deserves a lot of credit for the restoration of the defensive culture that some now seem to take for granted. I guess I've been watching long enough to still be a little bit surprised when four or five defenders swarm the ball and actually tackle as oppossed to what was routine in the past - broken tackle after broken tackle.
Interesting that you mention G-Williams and the defense, because while I think did somethings to set up this team to succeed....I think there'd be no doubt that without Williams' defense the team would have had losing seasons all four years of Gibbs' time here and his second stint would have definitely been considered a failure.
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Old 08-15-2008, 02:21 PM   #40
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Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?

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Originally Posted by Miller101 View Post
How can people talk about Gibbs 2 being a failure? That makes NO sense whatsoever!!!

When Gibbs 1 left he left behind hall of famers Green and Monk. The Hogs, and Clarke should be in too. Hey, possibly Brian Mitchell, who is something like 3rd all time in yardage in the NFL! Not to mention Charles Mann was a damn good pass rusher too! When Gibbs 1 left we were a team. We were a team that no matter if we were getting beat badly by the 49er's in the play offs or getting owned by the Giants in the Championship Game during 1986 or losing our first game to the Cowboys................we were a team that never quit. That never gave up. We were a team that took shit like Buddy Ryan's bodybag comments VERY SERIOUSLY and went back to kick the crap out of them later. We were a team that took care of each other.

When Gibbs came back he got a team that didn't care. Did everyone here forget about Dallas running up the score on us in 2003? Troy Hambrick had 200 yards on the ground against us! Troy Hambrick for Pete's Sake!!! How in the hell do you let someone as bad as him rack up 200 yards! THAT IS BULLSHIT!!! You know our players didn't give a crap about that game. You know they didn't care that we were playing Dallas. For Hambrick to get those yards and for our quarterback to have a zero passer rating; our guys quit. They quit on us and on each other. Smoot said it best when he said, "Half the team didn't show up to play today".

The team also set a franchise record for penalties in one year too!

When Gibbs got back here thats what he had to work with. I won't forget the first thing Gibbs did when he got here. He cut Jeremiah Trotter. He cut him just a few weeks after he got here too. Jeremiah then got picked back up by the Eagles and he immediately said, "I've always bled green". He Got rid of someone that didn't care to be here.

Next up was Champ Bailey. I was at the last game of the 2003 season. My seats are at the Redskins Tunnel and in the second quarter, on the other side of the field, I saw something that nearly made me puke. McNabb threw one of his infamous screens to a running back and then Champ Bailey came up...................and escorted the guy into the end zone. Touchdown Philly! I thought no way! I saw that wrong! They were far away! I missed that play! When I saw the replays later, I knew I had seen it right. Gibbs got rid of his ass! And got someone that is a staple in our offense! GREAT MOVE GIBBS!

Gibbs did a massive overhaul on our roster for the first two years. He was just trying to fix what WAS a very tough and elite franchise in the NFL. He was just trying to get the Redskins back to where they were when he left the first time. He cut Jesse Armstead and brought in Marcus Washington. Cut Iffy Ohalete and brought in Sean Taylor (RIP Sean). Traded Champ Bailey and brought Portis and Shawn Springs. Added Cornelius Griffen to the D-line. It goes on and on. It took him two years to over haul this team.

In his third year here. He had a CRUD load of injuries to deal with. And.............that sucked! He finally gets his team built, but they all get hurt. His last year. He again had a CRUD load of injuries to deal with and then his best player gets murdered. Gibbs wasn't going to lose like that again! He got this team to the play offs.

For those of you that think Gibbs 2 was a failure tell me one other team IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME that lost their starting linebacker, starting cornerback, starting quarterback, two starting offensive lineman and their starting Safety (Gone but not forgotten). Tell me one other team that made the play offs with all of that crap happening to them! Just one!

Gibbs wasn't a failure. He did something that seemed impossible. His team did it. His team never quit. They never gave up. They took care of each other. He's got this team playing hard against Dallas again. Heck, He embarrassed Dallas during their 'Ring of Shame' game. Embarrassed them again last year by holding them to only one rushing yard. This team went down to Minnesota, who was number one in the league against the run, and with back up lineman in there ran the ball effectively. He had this team, who had just come back from burying their friend and teammate beat the crap out of the Bears. Landry jacked up Muhammed too! He must have been angry about something...............And before it was over he went back to the Meadowlands and beat the superbowl champs in their own house. What else can you ask for? What!? A Superbowl? Maybe this year. Lets see if we can stay healthy and see what this team can do. And see what Zorn can do with it. Just don't call Gibbs 2 a failure.

Well since you are asking... the 2001-2002 Patriots, "Before the season even started, quarterbacks coach Dick Rehbein died of a heart attack.", they lost Drew Bledsoe, and had to deal with September 11. But still managed to win the SuperBowl.
2001 New England Patriots season - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gibbs 2 should get credit for creating stability within the skins, but thats about it.
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Old 08-15-2008, 02:30 PM   #41
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Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?

I agree that Gibbs 2 was way better than what went before it. And that's a big deal, no doubt. He did overhaul the roster, with some mixed results, though generally for the better. And he did deal with serious injury problems, not to mention the Taylor situation. Concerning Taylor, I don't think there's anyone else I'd rather have had at the helm during that incredibly difficult time than Joe Gibbs. So there's lots of positives.

But from the standpoint of what occurred on the football field (and yes, I know, that's not the only rubric), I still think it was a failure. The numbers are relatively clear, especially when you focus on the offense. And given JGs offensive performance in the first stint (see the 1991 team or the 1988 team, for example), if someone had asked you right at the beginning if below .500 ball with one of the weakest offenses in the league would be a success, you'd have said no way, and you'd probably have accused the guy of being a hater. So in that specific regard, I think it was a failure. In that time, the cow-roids have surged and the gints have won a Superbowl. Would you ever have thought 4 years ago that the gints would win a Superbowl before us?

In the final analysis, I think JG did a good job as team president and a less-than-stellar job as head coach. The rebuilding was a serious task, and we have him to thank for that (I agree that JZ would be the first to agree with that). But on the field it was not up to snuff. Given that massive expectations with Gibbs returning, that's a failure.

(Again, JG is among my football heroes. Just trying to evaluate things clearly after the fact.)
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Old 08-15-2008, 02:34 PM   #42
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Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?

I think Zorns performance this season will change a lot of opinions. If he does even a decent job (9-7?) then I would say that all those other things that Gibbs did would be consider a success. However, if Zorn tanks it, then Gibbs rebuilding would mean nothing methinks.
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Old 08-15-2008, 03:14 PM   #43
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Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?

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Well since you are asking... the 2001-2002 Patriots, "Before the season even started, quarterbacks coach Dick Rehbeindied of a heart attack.", they lost Drew Bledsoe, and had to deal with September 11. But still managed to win the SuperBowl

um, so a quarterback, a quarterback coach, and a tragedy that hit every team (you might argue it hit ny, and washington even harder, and increased the rally for the "PATRIOTS") not quite the same as the list presented earlier.

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Old 08-15-2008, 04:55 PM   #44
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Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?

Long time no talk fella's

I would prefer to stay positive and think that in a few years time, we will all look back and say "Gibbs built the team to win it all and Zorn finished the job."
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Old 08-15-2008, 05:49 PM   #45
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Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?

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um, so a quarterback, a quarterback coach, and a tragedy that hit every team (you might argue it hit ny, and washington even harder, and increased the rally for the "PATRIOTS") not quite the same as the list presented earlier.
My point was every team has it hard, the good ones seem to find a way to win. And it is very similar to the list, well if you dont like that one check out Super Bowl XXXIX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, where the pats basically lost thier entire secondary having to have a WR Troy Brown play both ways.

Those 2 teams found a way to win through adversity, period. The NFL is based on wins and loses and if you want to judge JG2 on that, than he wasnt very good.
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