Don't you think we are overreacting just a bit??

Slingin Sammy 33 · 09-06-2008, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

But there didn't need to be such a big transition. If the FO had half a brain they would've known that JC and the whole offense is going to struggle having to learn yet another offense. A smart FO keeps the OC. If you don't like Al then bring in a guy who runs the same system with the same terminolgy. Wasn't Cam Cameron out there? Why isn't he here? He's got OC and HC experience and I think he runs the Coryell numbers system. Can you name me one NFL Qb that's had to learn 3 NFL systems in his first 4 years?? Sorry but that's just not smart football. JC played poorly Mon. but he sure isn't getting any help from management. Plus you've got Collins who knows that system and played his ass off to help get this team in the playoffs last season. Sorry but if I'm management I'm keeping Al around just for that reason alone. Why make these guys learn something new when they could perfect what was already in place????

These coaches are paid high salaries. To not have a hurry up offense running with 6 min to go in a game where you're trailing by two scores is just stupid. That's high school stuff. Plus if Zorn watched the tapes from last year he'd know that JC runs the no huddle shotgun pretty damn well. Where the hell was it?? So again, why hire a guy who has no HC or OC experience? All I'm saying is there were more qualified guys out there. Just cause you get along with a guy doesn't mean he's the best guy for the job. This shit isn't about getting along, it's about winning games.

I know I'm overracting a bit. NY is just better. But not being prepared is a whole nother issue. We we not prepared Thurs. night and that pisses me off.

1) Why keep the same OC who was responsible for the Lloyd & ARE deals? Why keep the same OC who general consensus is wasn't very effective, just for the sake of continuity?

2) JC didn't get any help from management??? Didn't we draft 2 WRs, a TE and OL with our first four picks?

3) Collins was effective but not the only reason we played strong down the stretch, weather, the D stepping up and the Cowboys securing playoff position had a lot more to do with that run than Collins. Collins is a career back-up for a reason. He was a FA and no one pursued him with starter $$$ even though there are a few teams that desperately needed QB help.

4) The goal is winning a SB, not winning games. What good is it to be 8-8, 9-7 and not advance in the playoffs. The draft picks aren't going to put us in the NFC Cahmpionship this year, but we are building to make a run in 2009 or 2010. DS & VC were right to go in another direction on offense than Saunders. For whatever reason other HC candidates didn't work out, we don't know all the details. Zorn will have some growing pains but appears to have good attention to detail and will be significantly better towards the end of the year than he is now.

SFREDSKIN · 09-06-2008, 07:08 PM

It's called impatience, unfortunately many fans on this board are. They bitch about a young QB not playing like a vet, they forget that in the old days a QB rode the pine for 4-5 years before he got a chance and compare him to other QB's like Brady or Manning that were successful from the start. Do most of you guys know how rare that is? I'll give Zorn and Campbell a chance, it's a new system and that takes time. If you guys want to bitch at someone, how about Vinny he chose to go with the Paul Brown offense instead of the Air Coryell. This creates a whole new philosphy that needs to be learned and the right players plugged in for the system. If you guys think that Collins can do better than JC, then you haven't watched the pre-season, if anything Colt would do better than Collins in this system and that's still a ways away.

Mattyk · 09-06-2008, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIRTEE

I agree with the Goat, for some reason, we are not utilizing the talent on the offensive side of the ball. I don't think people really want to see Jason fired or all those other silly things, we just want some effort shown. I have a faith in the Redskins roster. I don't like the excuse of Jason having to learn different systems and he needs an adjustment period. that's not true. he will always have rushers in his face and 5 passing options on the field.

Tell that to Matt Hasselbeck who struggled in picking up the WCO in Seattle.

It's not an excuse, it's a simple fact of life in the NFL that switching systems is not always the easiest thing to do, and requires some time and patience. It's one of the reasons why playing QB is probably the toughest thing to do in all of sports.

htownskinfan · 09-06-2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Well, I guess it kind of depends on what your definition of "overreaction" is.

If I said that based on what I saw in the preseason, and what I saw the other night, that we will not make the playoffs this season, is that an overreaction? I don't think so at all.

Now, am I saying ridiculous things like trading for Jason Taylor was a bad idea, and Jason Campbell is all wrong for the WCO? Hell no. But I definitely don't think we'll make the playoffs.

You said yourself the offense clearly needs time, alluding to the length of time Hasselbeck took to get up to speed in Seattle as precedent. And if you're willing to wait half a season for the offense to come around, aren't you really saying that you don't expect us to win very much during the first half of the year?

I mean, our defense is solid, but it's not spectacular. It's basically the same group from last year with the same schemes, which placed 9th in the NFL. That's above average, but not good enough to win games for us while our offense finds its way, a la Trent Dilfer and the 2000 Ravens.

Now's about the time during this post when people start saying, "well yeah but it's still possible, there are 15 games left." Of course it's possible, that's not the question. Is it PROBABLE? That's the question.

If our expectations are that the offense will struggle as JC learns it, then we can't possibly expect the 'Skins to beat Dallas in Dallas and Philly in Philly, can we? It's possible, but not probable.

I'll give you this, an overreaction would be to say that it's impossible for the 'Skins to make the playoffs. But it would be right on point to say they probably won't - anything else is irrational exuberance buoyed by the emotional hopes of a football-starved fan in early September.

great post

GMScud · 09-06-2008, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Tell that to Matt Hasselbeck who struggled in picking up the WCO in Seattle.

It's not an excuse, it's a simple fact of life in the NFL that switching systems is not always the easiest thing to do, and requires some time and patience. It's one of the reasons why playing QB is probably the toughest thing to do in all of sports.

Hasselbeck was actually benched for Trent Dilfer halfway through his first season in Seattle, which was I believe his 4th in the league. He turned out ok.

T.A.P.O.A.F.O.R. · 09-06-2008, 07:59 PM

so i also get the impression that this jumping on the team thing keeps coming earlier and earlier in the year, and its unwarranted. honestly, i blame snyder and his shenanigans. fans don't trust that the organization is doing things well or even fairly. various times over the last 8-9 years some of us (defintely me) have felt duped over the latest 'improvements'. and so every year we criticize earlier because dammit, we're not going to get overly optimistic and feel fooled again. even vinny has gotten (a bit) too much criticism because of this. but he probably doesn't deserve as much as he's getting and ndefinitely zorn or jc don't deserve it. let's chill out and give'em a chance...

skinsfan69 · 09-06-2008, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Goat

Disagree - plain and simple. I think we agree the guys looked like shit Thurs. I think we agree the transition to the WCO is pretty rough and too slow. We def agree the FO is not up to par w/ elite teams in the NFL. But I can't agree w/ you on our players. Offensively, we're sitting on one of the elite RBs in football, a proven elite TE and another TE that was elite through college, one of the very best fullbacks in football, a QB who has shown flashes of huge potential, WRs that do not fit the WCO but have been major deep threats, and a line that should at least get the job done. To the point I don't think we are utilizing the talent we have on the field at any given time and that is what has been truly frustrating over the last few years and again on Thurs.

Just look within the division. I don't see anyone on our offense that can take over the game like Burress or TO can. Cooley is a nice player. No doubt. But I'd probably take Witten over Cooley. Portis is a top ten back. No question. But he's not as good as Westbrook. He's not the duel threat like Westbrook is. And Davis may be good in the future but right now he's just an unproven rookie. And where it matters most, at the Qb position, JC is the worst QB within the division. He can't carry us yet, he's only shown flashes. But what we gave up to get him I expect him to be able to carry us at times. Right now his head is probably spining and he's thinking instead of reacting.

skinsfan69 · 09-06-2008, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWilly_2003

Thank you GMScud. It took two years for Hasselbeck to become a top QB. JC just needs time. And for those who said Zorn lays the blame on the players is not true. He said right off the bat that he wishs he had plays back, and that the clock managment was bad. Hes new to this too people. Football is a little bit harder down on the field then it is in your PS3 people. Gibbs went 0-5 in his first 5 games in 1981, to later finish 8-8......then next year.....hummmm....

Sorry but there is no excuse for running Portis into the pile with 6 minutes to go and not running hurry up when we're down two scores. That was almost a fireable offense right there. No urgency what so ever. We might not win against NO cause I think they're better than we are. But at least I want us to be prepared.

Defensewins · 09-06-2008, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Was the defense really the problem though?

They tightened up in the 2nd half (42 yard rushing allowed vs. 74 in the first half) and kept us in the game and only allowed 1 TD. If we had any hint of an offense that was a very winnable game.

Yes the D needs some improvement, but I'm not sure why you are so focused on them vs. the offense, which needs a vast improvement.

I am old school, defense wins championships was the name I tried to make as my TWP name. I respect teams that have great defenses and I really appreaciate seeing a good defense play. I played LB and safety in school and I know what to look for and can tell by a few drives if any team has a sound defense or not. We do not. Our team will hang in there and make a game of it on a given week, but we will also get blow out a game or two this year. We are not a a caliber of team that will keep every game close on our defense alone. We have to click on all cylinders to win games this year or be playing a weak team . That makes it difficult and frustrating. Especially since we had a good defense not to long ago.

TurlockSkinsFan · 09-06-2008, 09:29 PM

I do believe we are all overreacting, every one of us. I mean we have been frustrated the last four years, and with Zorn being hired I think that we all believed there would be a 180 from coach Joe. The thing is that learning a new offense is hard to do especially when it's a big difference from what the team has been doing. I'm not making excuses because these guys are professionals (blocking is blocking, tackling is tackling, going past the first down marker on third down...etc) they should be able to do the fundamentals,
but playing in a new offense in a hostile environment will hinder the things that we want to do. One thing I am throughly disappointed in is Zorn's clock management. A guy who played quarterback in the NFL should know when to use his 2 and 4 minute offensive calls. On a positive Portis will be a beast when he gets his legs under him and Blache adjusted our D in the second half.
By week 4 or 5 this team should really begin clicking

sportscurmudgeon · 09-06-2008, 09:41 PM

Matty:

Indeed some folks have over-reacted to a rather poor opening game by the Skins. I might suggest that many of those over-reacting folks are the same ones who were projecting the Skins as the NFC East Champs with a really good shot at the Super Bowl this year. That was - and is - an unrealistic expectation. So, when they played the way they did, those folks panic.

The team's play will have to improve as the season goes along; it's just not possible for them to continue to make those kinds of mistakes (on the field and on the sidelines) week after week.

But in the cold light of day, the Redksins of 2008 have precisely the same weaknesses than they had in 2007.

1. The same 3 wide recievers are out there most of the time and they are a mediocre bunch. They have been for the last three seasons and there is no reason to expect them to "blossom" at this stage of their careers.

2. Jason Campbell still stares down his recievers far too often.

3. Defensive line cannot stop the run effectively.

You would like to think that at least one of these weaknesses would be significantly better in 08 than it was in 07. No indication yet. Time will tell. Patience is called for...

safety blitz · 09-06-2008, 09:51 PM

Its just frustrating because we looked so good in the first to preseason games and we got to excited, when we all knew it was probably going to be like this till we get the new system down. But that first half, I was about to say get the gunslinger brennan in there sometimes you got to go with the hot hand, and he has it. Its like Madden has said a couple of times he just brings some kind energy to the huddle. Not saying lets dump JC cause I think he will be a good QB, but if he is struggling let him sit out a few downs to get his thoughts together. Whats it going to hurt! The thing that bugs me is our offense, we got to put up 35 points a game to go anywhere. I just want a dominating team like we used to have, when we would beat most of the league, a long time ago.

70Chip · 09-06-2008, 11:40 PM

I haven't had to overreact because I saw this coming and got it all out of my system beforehand.

It's not that bad. They can win some games. I think Zorn needs to focus more on matchups in his game planning. Find the defenses weak link and pick on him. Sometimes you get so caught up in trying to establish your identity, you lose focus. Flexibility is important too. I think Bruce Lee has some good thoughts in this area. Let the opponent dictate how you defeat him.

As fans, once we accept that this team will have to struggle for everything, we can begin to actually root for them again. They're just not going to dominate. If that's what your into, this is not the team.

The Goat · 09-07-2008, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Just look within the division. I don't see anyone on our offense that can take over the game like Burress or TO can. Cooley is a nice player. No doubt. But I'd probably take Witten over Cooley. Portis is a top ten back. No question. But he's not as good as Westbrook. He's not the duel threat like Westbrook is. And Davis may be good in the future but right now he's just an unproven rookie. And where it matters most, at the Qb position, JC is the worst QB within the division. He can't carry us yet, he's only shown flashes. But what we gave up to get him I expect him to be able to carry us at times. Right now his head is probably spining and he's thinking instead of reacting.

Dude, you've got me LMOA. Not laughing at you so don't take this the wrong way but I've never heard Chris Cooley described as a nice player. Shit, just saying that out loud makes me crack up. Cooley has been under-utilized even in his best season, and has shown the talent and athleticism to take over a game. He's a phenom in waiting IMO and I'm hoping Zorn and Co. can hash out a game-plan that let's Cooley be the dominant offensive force he should be.

You could be right about Westbrook over CP but isn't it impossible to say since Westbrook has been blessed in Philly w/ an offensive genius for an HC. CP has been far less fortunate in his path w/ the exception of his brief stint in Denver. More to the point, try thinking about what CP would have done in Westbrook's circumstances. I still think CP can take over a game and it's up to Zorn and the offensive line to give him the opportunity w/ play-calling and decent blocking.

On to Davis, if Zorn and the FO spent a 2nd round pick on the most prolific TE in college ball last year just so he could spend his time blocking we might as well call it a season. Dude showed awesome hands and almost WR like ability to run routes and make defenders miss. If we don't find a way to incorporate him in the offense as a downfield target it looks like the worst pick of the draft.

But here's where we agree - JC is the worst QB in the division (assuming Dono is back to his old self). That is a shitty reality for us, but I'm not ready to say JC is just a shitty QB. He's shown flashes and now he needs to settle into the WCO. Hopefully his experience in the WC from senior year @ Auburn will start to pay dividends. Hopefully he progresses quick enough that we won't have to right '08 off.

GusFrerotte · 09-07-2008, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWilly_2003

Thank you GMScud. It took two years for Hasselbeck to become a top QB. JC just needs time. And for those who said Zorn lays the blame on the players is not true. He said right off the bat that he wishs he had plays back, and that the clock managment was bad. Hes new to this too people. Football is a little bit harder down on the field then it is in your PS3 people. Gibbs went 0-5 in his first 5 games in 1981, to later finish 8-8......then next year.....hummmm....

I don't mean to be rude, but that 0-5 to 8-8 analogy about Gibbs is getting old. Gibbs had everything going for him then: HOF talent, a great owner and probably the best GM in NFL history, to help get him into Canton. Gibbs also had a kick ass offensive scheme ala air Coryell. Since you love the 0-5 to 8-8 analogy, Marty did the same thing in 2000, but didn't go anywhere the next year, as he got canned. Not saying we can't do it this season, but I highly doubt we are going to reach 8-8. THe coach is brand new, the scheme is brand new, and let's face it, other than Portis and maybe Cooley, who is really HOF potential here?

09-06-2008, 07:08 PM	#47
SFREDSKIN Pro Bowl Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Pacifica, CA Posts: 6,529	Re: Don't you think we are overreacting just a bit?? It's called impatience, unfortunately many fans on this board are. They bitch about a young QB not playing like a vet, they forget that in the old days a QB rode the pine for 4-5 years before he got a chance and compare him to other QB's like Brady or Manning that were successful from the start. Do most of you guys know how rare that is? I'll give Zorn and Campbell a chance, it's a new system and that takes time. If you guys want to bitch at someone, how about Vinny he chose to go with the Paul Brown offense instead of the Air Coryell. This creates a whole new philosphy that needs to be learned and the right players plugged in for the system. If you guys think that Collins can do better than JC, then you haven't watched the pre-season, if anything Colt would do better than Collins in this system and that's still a ways away. __________________ Joe Gibbs- The best coach of all time, Lombardi trophy should be renamed Gibbs. Art Monk- Art was like an OL playing WR, doing the dirty work and not getting the glory. Darrell Green- Best DB ever. Purveyor of fine Filth

09-06-2008, 07:59 PM	#51
T.A.P.O.A.F.O.R. Camp Scrub Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 63	Re: Don't you think we are overreacting just a bit?? so i also get the impression that this jumping on the team thing keeps coming earlier and earlier in the year, and its unwarranted. honestly, i blame snyder and his shenanigans. fans don't trust that the organization is doing things well or even fairly. various times over the last 8-9 years some of us (defintely me) have felt duped over the latest 'improvements'. and so every year we criticize earlier because dammit, we're not going to get overly optimistic and feel fooled again. even vinny has gotten (a bit) too much criticism because of this. but he probably doesn't deserve as much as he's getting and ndefinitely zorn or jc don't deserve it. let's chill out and give'em a chance...

09-06-2008, 09:29 PM	#55
TurlockSkinsFan Camp Scrub Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Turlock, CA Age: 32 Posts: 13	Re: Don't you think we are overreacting just a bit?? I do believe we are all overreacting, every one of us. I mean we have been frustrated the last four years, and with Zorn being hired I think that we all believed there would be a 180 from coach Joe. The thing is that learning a new offense is hard to do especially when it's a big difference from what the team has been doing. I'm not making excuses because these guys are professionals (blocking is blocking, tackling is tackling, going past the first down marker on third down...etc) they should be able to do the fundamentals, but playing in a new offense in a hostile environment will hinder the things that we want to do. One thing I am throughly disappointed in is Zorn's clock management. A guy who played quarterback in the NFL should know when to use his 2 and 4 minute offensive calls. On a positive Portis will be a beast when he gets his legs under him and Blache adjusted our D in the second half. By week 4 or 5 this team should really begin clicking

09-06-2008, 09:41 PM	#56
sportscurmudgeon Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,159	Re: Don't you think we are overreacting just a bit?? Matty: Indeed some folks have over-reacted to a rather poor opening game by the Skins. I might suggest that many of those over-reacting folks are the same ones who were projecting the Skins as the NFC East Champs with a really good shot at the Super Bowl this year. That was - and is - an unrealistic expectation. So, when they played the way they did, those folks panic. The team's play will have to improve as the season goes along; it's just not possible for them to continue to make those kinds of mistakes (on the field and on the sidelines) week after week. But in the cold light of day, the Redksins of 2008 have precisely the same weaknesses than they had in 2007. 1. The same 3 wide recievers are out there most of the time and they are a mediocre bunch. They have been for the last three seasons and there is no reason to expect them to "blossom" at this stage of their careers. 2. Jason Campbell still stares down his recievers far too often. 3. Defensive line cannot stop the run effectively. You would like to think that at least one of these weaknesses would be significantly better in 08 than it was in 07. No indication yet. Time will tell. Patience is called for... __________________ The Sports Curmudgeon www.sportscurmudgeon.com But don't get me wrong, I love sports...

09-06-2008, 09:51 PM	#57
safety blitz Camp Scrub Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: kansas Posts: 1	Re: Don't you think we are overreacting just a bit?? Its just frustrating because we looked so good in the first to preseason games and we got to excited, when we all knew it was probably going to be like this till we get the new system down. But that first half, I was about to say get the gunslinger brennan in there sometimes you got to go with the hot hand, and he has it. Its like Madden has said a couple of times he just brings some kind energy to the huddle. Not saying lets dump JC cause I think he will be a good QB, but if he is struggling let him sit out a few downs to get his thoughts together. Whats it going to hurt! The thing that bugs me is our offense, we got to put up 35 points a game to go anywhere. I just want a dominating team like we used to have, when we would beat most of the league, a long time ago.

09-06-2008, 11:40 PM	#58
70Chip Playmaker Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Manassas Age: 42 Posts: 3,048	Re: Don't you think we are overreacting just a bit?? I haven't had to overreact because I saw this coming and got it all out of my system beforehand. It's not that bad. They can win some games. I think Zorn needs to focus more on matchups in his game planning. Find the defenses weak link and pick on him. Sometimes you get so caught up in trying to establish your identity, you lose focus. Flexibility is important too. I think Bruce Lee has some good thoughts in this area. Let the opponent dictate how you defeat him. As fans, once we accept that this team will have to struggle for everything, we can begin to actually root for them again. They're just not going to dominate. If that's what your into, this is not the team. __________________ This Monkey's Gone to Heaven

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Don't you think we are overreacting just a bit??

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