Football IQ Only

firstdown · 09-08-2008, 10:32 AM

Well I'm not giving up on JC now but to me there are some thing that stand out that I don't know if its because he has had so many O's or its just him. One thing that I have seen in JC is that he locks on to one WR. It really stood out last year in our home game against the Giants last year. I was up high looking down on the field and there was 7 to 10 plays where we had WR's very wide open and JC dumped it off or threw to a covered WR. Even my wife asked why he was not throwing to these WR's.

dmvskinzfan08 · 09-08-2008, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skins4Eva

Good Evening fellow Skins Fans. This will be a rather lengthy post and I hope you do not mind. Also, I would like to ask that this post is only answered with objective foootball knowledge/experience and not emotional fan-based sensitivity. With all of that said I will begin.

First, I was raised on the Redskins and bleed, absolutely bleed the Burgundy & Gold so please do not take my statements as "quitting" on the team we all love. We can no longer ignore the shortcomings of Jason Campbell. As a player, former Div II Offensive Coordinator, and Offensive Coordinator/Quaterbacks Coach at a North Carolina High School who sent off 6 Division I football players last year (4 offensive players); I understand the quarterback position. And as of this year, Jason Campbell is not an upper-tier NFL QB. What makes a QB great in this game is leadership ability, ability to read/react to the defense, pocket awareness, and accuracy. However, it is in these areas where Jason has the most detriment. I have been charting his games as I would any of the QB's I have ever worked with at the start of last season. First, how can Clinton Portis be the leader of your offense? The QB absolutley has to be the vocal, emotional, physical leader of the offense. Second, he holds the ball entirely too long, especially in a West Coast System. Third, he regularly locks on too one reciever and has shown to be inept and basic when it comes reading and reacting to the defense. Why do you think it is so easy to defend him? Coordinators know that JC cannot hurt them. Our O-Line isn't really that bad as many would be led to believe. The line is constantly overmatched as defenses send 6,7, sometimes 8 defenders because they know JC cannot react and has a super slow processing time. Processing is the term used by QB coaches that refers to his anaylsis and diagnosis of what he sees after snap is typically two to three seconds slower than your average to elite NFL QB.

I hope the young man does well because I think he is a super guy. However, this is the NFL, not church. Let's now look at some ways they could help him, if they they mistakenly stay with him as a starter. I do think, however, that the addition of Malcolm Kelly can really help his confidence. Devin Thomas will not be in this league longer than 3 years. However, mark my words, as an offensive guy, from what I've seen of Malcolm Kelly, his skills/body type, are comparable to many of the NFL's elite recievers. Also, another way they could help is getting off this crack fantasy that Moss is a No.1 reciever. He is too small and simply cannot be seen by JC in traffic, not to mention terrible hands. Your No.1 reciever cannot be a streaky, although,exciting and talented guy. They have to consistently get open and move chains. Also, they need to scrap that old-style Gibbs running game and go to the West Coast Zone blocking scheme in which Portis became a star in Denver. And please, please, stop keeping your best recieving threat in Cooley in the backfield to block!!!

I could go on and on but I will end this now. Thanks for listening to my rant. Hail !!!!

Question how many titles have your teams won? Just a question I am curious. I am not questioning your knowledge of the game or your expertise. I just want to know.

We have to be frank here and use some common sense. I agree with a lot of things you have said. But also you have to take in many contributing factors. Poor O-line play. Receivers are learning this offense also. WRs dropping balls. Our rookie receivers being hurt throughout training camp.

This is the first freaking game. People are really OVERACTING. We were playing the defending Super Bowl champs.

Saying that. We only lost by 9 points. This is a work in progress. Many factions of our team were not playing well. Also remember the Giants didn't score in the second half. Saying that. The WHOLE offense needs to speed up its grasp of this offense. This offense needs to gel. If anyone expected us to come out the box and be the greatest show on turf. Then you weren't be realistic. Give the team a chance. Give JC a chance. This is only the first freaking game. Zorn needs to step his game up. If we had some consistency the past few years we would have been much further along. But this is a learning process for everyone including the coach.

SouperMeister · 09-08-2008, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hesscl34

As tall as JC is, this doesn't make sesne. He as tall or taller than most of the linemen.

However Zorn has adjusted Campbell's stance in the pocket, not wanting him to stand so tall, but in a more compact/athletic setup. Perhaps that has changed Campbell's view of the developing play compared to the past.

Redskin Warrior · 09-08-2008, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hesscl34

As tall as JC is, this doesn't make sesne. He as tall or taller than most of the linemen.

6'5 JC----------6'6 Samuels-------------5'9 Moss

I kind of see how it's hard to see

Mattyk · 09-08-2008, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redskin Warrior

6'5 JC----------6'6 Samuels-------------5'9 Moss

I kind of see how it's hard to see

Just to add: Thomas is 6'5, Kendall is 6'6, Rabach is 6'4, and Heyer is 6'6.

Redskin Warrior · 09-08-2008, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOUL-SKINS

Didn't we give him two seasons with Al Saunders offense. He never shined there either. Listen, He is just O.K. Maybe alittle better than Kyle Orton.

Who has shined in Al Saunders offense? ......Trent Green? NO!!! How many super bowls or playoffs appearances besides last year has the Saunders offense produced since the 2000's?

Mattyk · 09-08-2008, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hesscl34

Are you really going to agrue about inches (1 or 2)?

Collins and Brunell had no issues finding Moss and other receivers through their very tall linemen....

Point is we do have a tall OL and some short WRs, that's all.

Redskin Warrior · 09-08-2008, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hesscl34

Are you really going to agrue about inches (1 or 2)?

Collins and Brunell had no issues finding Moss and other receivers through their very tall linemen....

during the preseason Collins had taller recievers Mann, Mcmullen & Mix all taller than Randle El & Moss. Collins didn't run with the first team offense either. Brunell wasn't in the same system.

SOUL-SKINS · 09-08-2008, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redskin Warrior

Who has shined in Al Saunders offense? ......Trent Green? NO!!! How many super bowls or playoffs appearances besides last year has the Saunders offense produced since the 2000's?

KC's offense was actually really good but their D sucked.
So thats way they didn't make the playoffs. If they had a solid d they would have been playoff bound. All that i'm trying to say is that JC seems unsure at times. I know he had 30 different O's in the last 8 years but it just seems he'll never be pro-bowl bound regardless. Listen I hope i'm wrong, I really do.
I live for this shit. If the Redskins suck i'm ****ing miserable.

sandtrapjack · 09-08-2008, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skins4Eva

Good Evening fellow Skins Fans. This will be a rather lengthy post and I hope you do not mind. Also, I would like to ask that this post is only answered with objective foootball knowledge/experience and not emotional fan-based sensitivity. With all of that said I will begin.

First, I was raised on the Redskins and bleed, absolutely bleed the Burgundy & Gold so please do not take my statements as "quitting" on the team we all love. We can no longer ignore the shortcomings of Jason Campbell. As a player, former Div II Offensive Coordinator, and Offensive Coordinator/Quaterbacks Coach at a North Carolina High School who sent off 6 Division I football players last year (4 offensive players); I understand the quarterback position. And as of this year, Jason Campbell is not an upper-tier NFL QB. What makes a QB great in this game is leadership ability, ability to read/react to the defense, pocket awareness, and accuracy. However, it is in these areas where Jason has the most detriment. I have been charting his games as I would any of the QB's I have ever worked with at the start of last season. First, how can Clinton Portis be the leader of your offense? The QB absolutley has to be the vocal, emotional, physical leader of the offense. Second, he holds the ball entirely too long, especially in a West Coast System. Third, he regularly locks on too one reciever and has shown to be inept and basic when it comes reading and reacting to the defense. Why do you think it is so easy to defend him? Coordinators know that JC cannot hurt them. Our O-Line isn't really that bad as many would be led to believe. The line is constantly overmatched as defenses send 6,7, sometimes 8 defenders because they know JC cannot react and has a super slow processing time. Processing is the term used by QB coaches that refers to his anaylsis and diagnosis of what he sees after snap is typically two to three seconds slower than your average to elite NFL QB.

I hope the young man does well because I think he is a super guy. However, this is the NFL, not church. Let's now look at some ways they could help him, if they they mistakenly stay with him as a starter. I do think, however, that the addition of Malcolm Kelly can really help his confidence. Devin Thomas will not be in this league longer than 3 years. However, mark my words, as an offensive guy, from what I've seen of Malcolm Kelly, his skills/body type, are comparable to many of the NFL's elite recievers. Also, another way they could help is getting off this crack fantasy that Moss is a No.1 reciever. He is too small and simply cannot be seen by JC in traffic, not to mention terrible hands. Your No.1 reciever cannot be a streaky, although,exciting and talented guy. They have to consistently get open and move chains. Also, they need to scrap that old-style Gibbs running game and go to the West Coast Zone blocking scheme in which Portis became a star in Denver. And please, please, stop keeping your best recieving threat in Cooley in the backfield to block!!!

I could go on and on but I will end this now. Thanks for listening to my rant. Hail !!!!

Why did you feel the need to start that post with your resume'? I do not think it will matter to anyone here nor change thier opinion about Campbell one way or the other.

KLHJ2 · 09-08-2008, 01:33 PM

It's called Ethos. A strong argument has 3 elements (Pathos, Logos, and Ethos). He played on the Ethos side of the argument to validate his authority of the subject.

over the mountain · 09-08-2008, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWilly_2003

No, I didn't discredit anyone. He is like the other "so called" redskins fans. He just tried to cover it up by throwing football terms out there. Everyone has the right to post their opinion, its just a shame they keep throwing the team under the bus. By the way on a side note, I'm pissed Tom Brady's leg didn't snap in half....I'm just throwing that out there.

lol man you one angry dude!!!!

dmvskinzfan08 · 09-08-2008, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hesscl34

I agree with this.. I'm sure this has created issues with his stance/view.

I agree also. I am wondering why would he have him at a disadvantage coming from under snap in a lower stance. That may take a precious second from him releasing the ball having to come out of the crouch position and then having to stand up at his height. It may not make a difference though. I am just wondering. I also see that they deployed the shot gun and it seem to work better. Why because he is standing straight up and doesn't have to fall into a upward stance. Which may be why he can't see his receivers as quick as he likes.

Another thing is. People quesion his intelligence. But it seems when they run the no huddle offense htis year and last year Jason does well.

I think Zorn should have practice having a quicker release more than a squatted stance for a guy show is 6'5. Makes no sense to me.. Especially when we have short receivers.

Someone made a good point about Collins and Brennan working with the second stringers in the preseason. They are taller than our starting receivers. But that is no excuse.

Zorn needs to work with what he has in JC. Also use his mobility. I thought mobility can be a strength in the WCO. But he is not rolling JC out as much and is making him too stationary. Its good to stay in the pocket. But when you have short receivers it might be better for him to roll out and use his talents. I recall JC running for several first downs when nothing was available. I dont think I have seen him run this whole preseaon or in the first game.

mcarey032 · 09-09-2008, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouperMeister

Well as a coach, I'm sure you can concede that keeping a QB in a system for an extended period helps him to make good decisions more quickly. Campbell is just starting to learn his 3rd offensive system in 4 years here. This has been my biggest knock on Snyder - a lack of continuity. If we go 4-12 this year, I do not want him to fire Zorn. Commit to a system and stick to it. Campbell was a State Champion in HS and led Auburn to an undefeated season as a senior. I'm convinced that the guy has the physical tools, and more importantly, the work ethic to be a great player IF we keep him in a program long enough to become great.

Well said. You can't keep turning over and expecting great results right away. All of this gets missed in the cycle.

Slingin Sammy 33 · 09-09-2008, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skins4Eva

We can no longer ignore the shortcomings of Jason Campbell. As a player, former Div II Offensive Coordinator, and Offensive Coordinator/Quaterbacks Coach at a North Carolina High School who sent off 6 Division I football players last year (4 offensive players); I understand the quarterback position. And as of this year, Jason Campbell is not an upper-tier NFL QB. What makes a QB great in this game is leadership ability, ability to read/react to the defense, pocket awareness, and accuracy. However, it is in these areas where Jason has the most detriment. I have been charting his games as I would any of the QB's I have ever worked with at the start of last season. First, how can Clinton Portis be the leader of your offense? The QB absolutley has to be the vocal, emotional, physical leader of the offense. Second, he holds the ball entirely too long, especially in a West Coast System. Third, he regularly locks on too one reciever and has shown to be inept and basic when it comes reading and reacting to the defense. Why do you think it is so easy to defend him? Coordinators know that JC cannot hurt them. Our O-Line isn't really that bad as many would be led to believe. The line is constantly overmatched as defenses send 6,7, sometimes 8 defenders because they know JC cannot react and has a super slow processing time. Processing is the term used by QB coaches that refers to his anaylsis and diagnosis of what he sees after snap is typically two to three seconds slower than your average to elite NFL QB.

I hope the young man does well because I think he is a super guy. However, this is the NFL, not church. Let's now look at some ways they could help him, if they they mistakenly stay with him as a starter. I do think, however, that the addition of Malcolm Kelly can really help his confidence. Devin Thomas will not be in this league longer than 3 years. However, mark my words, as an offensive guy, from what I've seen of Malcolm Kelly, his skills/body type, are comparable to many of the NFL's elite recievers. Also, another way they could help is getting off this crack fantasy that Moss is a No.1 reciever. He is too small and simply cannot be seen by JC in traffic, not to mention terrible hands. Your No.1 reciever cannot be a streaky, although,exciting and talented guy. They have to consistently get open and move chains. Also, they need to scrap that old-style Gibbs running game and go to the West Coast Zone blocking scheme in which Portis became a star in Denver. And please, please, stop keeping your best recieving threat in Cooley in the backfield to block!!!

First off, just because you're a HS OC/QB coach doesn't make your assessments more valid. You're also not the only one on this site with coaching and playing experience. It's also my experience that HS coaches who are sending 6 kids in one year to DI schools are not necessarily good coaches. If you have that much talent in one place, coaching mistakes/deficencies are often made up for by the physical talents of the players. Also, not to knit-pick, but if you were a DII OC, why move back to HS? I'm not trying to bash you, but if you're throwing out your experience as support for your opinions.....

That being said, I'm surprised at your post for two reasons; 1) After 1 game you've changed your opinion of JC from what you stated in the off-season after 3 1/2 quarters of pre-season and 1 regular season game of mediocre play. Earlier in the off-season you said, "Campbell looked much improved from a technique standpoint and i believe he is ready to lead our beloved Skins this year" and "if Jason Campbell puts all his talents together then you are looking at the next "big thing." He is the key to our future. He should be picking Zorn's brains this off-season and learning whatever he can. With Campbell's mobility, arm strength, and pocket presence...he has all the tools to be one of the most dangerous players in the game."

I certainly wouldn't want my son to play for an OC who is ready to yank him after a game where he played medicore, but several other parts of the offense were medicore or worse. By that same logic, should Tavaris Jackson, Derek Anderson, Carson Palmer and a few others be dumped or benched after medicore or worse performances on Sunday? What about Eli, his QB rating was actually worse than JC's.

2) Also, if you've been "charting his games", why not this opinion in the off-season? Your assessments of "holding the ball too long" and "locking on to one receiver" and the "processing time" thing (which is ridiculous BTW) are wrong for the most part. (see below). Note: If JC took 2-3 seconds longer than an elite QB to process info, he wouldn't be here. Gibbs knew a thing or two about QBs and he would've been seeking out other options if JC was that "slow".

Instances of delaying a throw or having a 1/2 sec of hesitation are common for a QB who has only played in 1 1/4 seasons of NFL games and is learning a new system. As a DII & HS OC you should know and understand this stuff. The comments you're making, I would expect from fans who have no playing experience past HS or have no coaching experience.

http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-l...tml#post473320 (JC is not what I thought.)

Your QB is definitely the leader of the O, but each QB leads differently. Not all are emotional or vocal. Many lead by example and other players are the rah-rah guys. Big Ben took a back seat to Bettis in the Steelers SB run, Eli is obviously not a rah-rah guy but his effective play helped the Giants win SB. Rivers takes a back seat to LT and the defensive guys, etc. etc.

Your assessment of Devin Thomas is way off and completely opposite of all the NFL scouts who had him rated as the top WR in the draft. Could he bust, possibly but how do you know that after 1 game.

While Kelly is comparable to some of the elite NFL receivers, isn't Moss comparable to a couple of speedsters who did pretty well on Sunday? How about Steve Smith, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne. While I agree, Moss' route running and hands are not elite. He is still a solid WR and stretches the field vertically, he's not ready to be cut along with JC.

The Skins are using a variant of the Zone Blocking scheme specifically to help Portis already.

If you're having problems with pass-pro don't you normally hold in some extra help, specifically a 250+ lb TE, rather than a 220lb. RB? Should we take the Spurrier approach to pass-pro?

09-08-2008, 10:32 AM	#16
firstdown Living Legend Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: chesapeake, va Age: 49 Posts: 15,282	Re: Football IQ Only Well I'm not giving up on JC now but to me there are some thing that stand out that I don't know if its because he has had so many O's or its just him. One thing that I have seen in JC is that he locks on to one WR. It really stood out last year in our home game against the Giants last year. I was up high looking down on the field and there was 7 to 10 plays where we had WR's very wide open and JC dumped it off or threw to a covered WR. Even my wife asked why he was not throwing to these WR's.

09-08-2008, 01:33 PM	#26
KLHJ2 Pro Bowl Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: DC Metro Area Age: 34 Posts: 5,829	Re: Football IQ Only It's called Ethos. A strong argument has 3 elements (Pathos, Logos, and Ethos). He played on the Ethos side of the argument to validate his authority of the subject.

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