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Old 01-22-2009, 01:46 AM   #16
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

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How dare the Ravens draft Offensive Lineman. Don't they know you need Receivers to win in this league. pffffft. You know the Ravens could learn a thing or two from the way Vinny Cerrato does things.
Let's look at the Cardinals. Two pro bowl receivers. Unlike the Ravens, they're in the super bowl. How about the other team, the Steelers. Another team with two very good receivers in Ward and Holmes.

In order to win in this league you need a balanced team. Personally, if I were building a team I'd go for a high octane offense paired with ball hawking/opportunistic defense. Make em' throw and turn em' over.

But really, the Steelers offensive line isn't that great. Baltimore seems to often choose best available talent. They didn't particularly need Suggs when he came out, but he fell to them so they hopped on him.

Everything said, I'm ready to bust this team apart and start from scratch. However, as the article mentions, the salaries we have won't allow for that to happen in a timely manner. Make each pick count, stay away from D line for now, too risky.
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Old 01-22-2009, 01:52 AM   #17
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

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Originally Posted by Daseal View Post
Let's look at the Cardinals. Two pro bowl receivers. Unlike the Ravens, they're in the super bowl. How about the other team, the Steelers. Another team with two very good receivers in Ward and Holmes.

In order to win in this league you need a balanced team. Personally, if I were building a team I'd go for a high octane offense paired with ball hawking/opportunistic defense. Make em' throw and turn em' over.

But really, the Steelers offensive line isn't that great. Baltimore seems to often choose best available talent. They didn't particularly need Suggs when he came out, but he fell to them so they hopped on him.

Everything said, I'm ready to bust this team apart and start from scratch. However, as the article mentions, the salaries we have won't allow for that to happen in a timely manner. Make each pick count, stay away from D line for now, too risky.
Very good point. Arizona had a good offense, but would not have survived the playoffs without their defense stepping up.
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Old 01-22-2009, 02:01 AM   #18
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

The problem with last year's draft was not that we chose receivers, but that they ended up sucking. Last time I checked, the NFC representative in the Superbowl was built around dynamic WR's and superior secondary play. I mean, the Cardinals aren't elite in either trench. The Colts are a team that has won a recent Superbowl - unlike those mentioned in this article - who place a tremendous premium on selecting offensive skill position players early and often, while neglecting their defensive line. And they've done aight. As Mel Kiper said in defending us last year post-draft, as some questioned our decision to draft three receivers, you can't do it all in one year. A polite way of saying that, on a team as old and hole-filled as ours, a team whose reserves had been depleted of youth from years of mortaging draft picks, it was going to take a few 10 pick stock-ups to get us back to where we need to be.

So yeah, we should draft linemen, and linebackers, and every other position too. But let's not pretend that Vinny's draft choices from last year are the reason we are where we are now. That goes back years, to Gibbs and Spurrier and before even.
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Old 01-22-2009, 02:42 AM   #19
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

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Originally Posted by Daseal View Post
Let's look at the Cardinals. Two pro bowl receivers. Unlike the Ravens, they're in the super bowl. How about the other team, the Steelers. Another team with two very good receivers in Ward and Holmes.

In order to win in this league you need a balanced team. Personally, if I were building a team I'd go for a high octane offense paired with ball hawking/opportunistic defense. Make em' throw and turn em' over.

But really, the Steelers offensive line isn't that great. Baltimore seems to often choose best available talent. They didn't particularly need Suggs when he came out, but he fell to them so they hopped on him.

Everything said, I'm ready to bust this team apart and start from scratch. However, as the article mentions, the salaries we have won't allow for that to happen in a timely manner. Make each pick count, stay away from D line for now, too risky.
You forgot to mention that the Cardinals have beneiftted from top class O-Line play during the last three weeks. Wisenhunt has gone out of his way to give credit to the O-Line during the playoff run.

Also keep in mind that out of the previous 14 Super Bowl winners only one team had a reciever with 1,200+ yards, and that was the Colts who ironically had my two most important offenisve cogs in an elite QB and a top notch O-Line.

Which brings me to the Steelers. Well you're right they don't have a great offensive line, instead they have a top notch Quarterback that is capable of running the offense. However the main reason the Steelers are in the Super Bowl is because of their defense which despite being ranked only 2 or 3 spots ahead of us is in a class of it's own. They actually remind me of the Raven's from 2001, just with a better Quarterback. So if we can get a defense that is capable of truly dominating a game then by all means we can pass up taking O-Lineman.

You're right though, balance is very important, and right now as a team we have a huge inbalance as it relates to our offensive line, in part because we've used so many draft picks on Recievers since the turn of the century. I also agree that going D-Line early in the draft right now is a little risky but if the Big 4 are gone and BJ Rali falls in our laps then I'll be more then happy to make him a Redskin.

Also I feel that if we can come away with two new starters in this draft (ie a new Guard and RT) then our offense will be exponentially better then it was last year (of course due in part to Campbells experience with the offense), and as it relates to leaving our defense alone, well from what I've seen with the exception of 2003 and 2006 our defense has managed to find a way to get the job done. Then again these things seem to happen in three's so I guess that settles it. In 2009 our defense will suck because of the number "3".
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Old 01-22-2009, 06:50 AM   #20
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

I think it's also important to look at how successful teams don't necessarily have one workhorse running back who gets run into the ground all year long. Take a look at the teams who have recently had deep playoff runs...

-- Giants in 2007, leading rusher was Brandon Jacobs with 1009 yards

-- Arizona this year, leading rushers were Hightower and Edge -- combined for just 913 yards

-- Pittsburgh this year, Willie Parker gains just 791 yards

Also, check out the stats over at NFL.com for the running backs who had the most carries. Look at how many of those teams made it to the playoffs. You have to go down to the guy who had the 12th most carries (Chris Johnson of Tennessee) to find out who had the deepest playoff run. At #17, 18, and 19 it was Brian Westbrook, LaRon McClain of the Ravens, and Brandon Jacobs. With the exception of Adrian Peterson of Minnesota, no playoff team had any running back have more than 292 carries for the season.

So I think this shows that we have placed too great a priority (and spent way too much money) on the "Superman" theory of running backs. You know, just hand the ball off to one guy and he will singlehandedly carry your team to the promised land. All that does is burn him out of gas, and it makes your offense dependent on the health of one guy.

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Old 01-22-2009, 07:02 AM   #21
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

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Originally Posted by Daseal View Post
Let's look at the Cardinals. Two pro bowl receivers. Unlike the Ravens, they're in the super bowl. How about the other team, the Steelers. Another team with two very good receivers in Ward and Holmes.

In order to win in this league you need a balanced team. Personally, if I were building a team I'd go for a high octane offense paired with ball hawking/opportunistic defense. Make em' throw and turn em' over.

But really, the Steelers offensive line isn't that great. Baltimore seems to often choose best available talent. They didn't particularly need Suggs when he came out, but he fell to them so they hopped on him.

Everything said, I'm ready to bust this team apart and start from scratch. However, as the article mentions, the salaries we have won't allow for that to happen in a timely manner. Make each pick count, stay away from D line for now, too risky.
I'd argue that the Cardinals are the exception and not the rule. The Cardinals were only 9-7, and happened to get hot and lucky at the right time. If the Ravens or Titans were in the NFC they would have crushed the Cardinals with their mediocre talent at the wide receiver position. I'd rather the Skins build a team like those teams vs. a team like the Cardinals. 9-7 won't win the NFC East like it did the NFC West.

And while Holmes and Ward are good, they're certainly not Fitzgerald and Boldin or even in the elite class of receivers like those guys. And even with Holmes and Ward, it's Big Ben keeping every play alive with his feet that makes that offense go. They actually won their last Super Bowl after getting rid of Plaxico Burress and before Holmes got there.
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Old 01-22-2009, 07:10 AM   #22
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

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Originally Posted by Beemnseven View Post
I think it's also important to look at how successful teams don't necessarily have one workhorse running back who gets run into the ground all year long. Take a look at the teams who have recently had deep playoff runs...

-- Giants in 2007, leading rusher was Brandon Jacobs with 1009 yards

-- Arizona this year, leading rushers were Hightower and Edge -- combined for just 913 yards

-- Pittsburgh this year, Willie Parker gains just 791 yards

Also, check out the stats over at NFL.com for the running backs who had the most carries. Look at how many of those teams made it to the playoffs. You have to go down to the guy who had the 12th most carries (Chris Johnson of Tennessee) to find out who had the deepest playoff run. At #17, 18, and 19 it was Brian Westbrook, LaRon McClain of the Ravens, and Brandon Jacobs. With the exception of Adrian Peterson of Minnesota, every other team who had running backs that carried the ball more than anyone else either didn't make the playoffs or were 'one and done' when they got there.

So I think this shows that we have placed too great a priority (and spent way too much money) on the "Superman" theory of running backs. You know, just hand the ball off to one guy and he will singlehandedly carry your team to the promised land. All that does is burn him out of gas, and it makes your offense dependent on the health of one guy.
And look at receptions as well. Most of those teams had a back who caught at least 40 balls. If our receivers and O line were so bad, then why didn't Zorn do more to get the backs involved in the passing attack? Look at how effectively teams like Miami, Atlanta and San Diego used their backs in the passing game. And even Minnesota mixed things up with Chester Taylor. He had 101 carries and 45 receptions, while Betts only had 61 and 22. The way Zorn used the RBs was just plain stupid.
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Old 01-22-2009, 07:16 AM   #23
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

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Yeah, I listened to that segment myself.

What bugs me is this:
The model for success in the NFL is glaringly obvious. Teams that do well consistently build through the draft, and pretty much always focus on building the lines. Year in and year out the Eagles have shitty WRs, yet for a decade they go farther than we do. Andy Reid drafts on the line of scrimmage. Need or not, he stockpiles lineman. The Phins, Flacons, and Ravens do the same. So what the hell is wrong with Cerrato? How are can he repeatedly be so stupid? I understand if once or twice he tried to move picks for vets and screwed up, or once or twice he drafted nothing but skill positions and screwed up... But he does it EVERY DAMN YEAR!! Why? Why not buck his trend for once and follow the normal model of success in the league?? It's maddening and arrogant. We have a stupid front office, plain and simple.
Absolutely! And he'll look at a team like the Cardinals who just happened to catch lightning in a bottle and think he can do the same thing. They're not built for long term success like the Ravens, Giants, Eagles, Pats, Steelers, Titans, etc. I want a team that's a threat to win 10-12 wins every year and not a team that eeks into the playoffs at 9-7 hoping to get hot at the right time. Even so, watch how the Cards operate from here on. Wisenhunt will build like the Steelers. They'll beef up the lines and will live with Fitzgerald and let Boldin go. Can't have long term success when all your money is tied up in skill positions.
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Old 01-22-2009, 09:08 AM   #24
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

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B-Mitch actually said something during tonight's recap show on 980 Sports that I have been saying for a while. I'm not usually a big fan of his, but he said something to the extent of:

When the Skins had dominant O and D lines back in the day - the Hogs and guys like Mann, Butz, Manley, etc on the D-line, it didn't matter who they put behind those lines. It seemed like every QB and RB did well (Theismann, Williams, Schroeder, Rypien, Riggs, Rogers, Byner, Sanders, Ervins) and little receivers like the Smurfs got the job done.

I think it's one of the single most impressive accomplishments that Gibbs won 3 Super Bowls with 3 different QBs. Noll only won with Bradshaw, Shannihan only won with Elway, Walsh only won with Montana and watch how many Belichik wins without Brady.

It was Gibbs, but it was also the Skins organization and their commitment to building from the lines out. Good line play makes everyone else look better.
.
But then it's not about where we're picking our linemen from but who the linemen we're picking, because a lot of those guys (if not most) were later round picks, undrafted free agents, and other teams' free agents
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Old 01-22-2009, 09:10 AM   #25
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

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Let's look at the Cardinals. Two pro bowl receivers. Unlike the Ravens, they're in the super bowl. How about the other team, the Steelers. Another team with two very good receivers in Ward and Holmes.

In order to win in this league you need a balanced team. Personally, if I were building a team I'd go for a high octane offense paired with ball hawking/opportunistic defense. Make em' throw and turn em' over.

But really, the Steelers offensive line isn't that great. Baltimore seems to often choose best available talent. They didn't particularly need Suggs when he came out, but he fell to them so they hopped on him.

Everything said, I'm ready to bust this team apart and start from scratch. However, as the article mentions, the salaries we have won't allow for that to happen in a timely manner. Make each pick count, stay away from D line for now, too risky.
Nice post. Very nice.
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Old 01-22-2009, 09:11 AM   #26
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

The Falcons, Ravens, and Dolphins are all the flavor of the moment...but what if they fall flat on their asses next year? Are we going to praise them again?
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Old 01-22-2009, 09:23 AM   #27
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

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Let's look at the Cardinals. Two pro bowl receivers. Unlike the Ravens, they're in the super bowl. How about the other team, the Steelers. Another team with two very good receivers in Ward and Holmes.

In order to win in this league you need a balanced team. Personally, if I were building a team I'd go for a high octane offense paired with ball hawking/opportunistic defense. Make em' throw and turn em' over.

But really, the Steelers offensive line isn't that great. Baltimore seems to often choose best available talent. They didn't particularly need Suggs when he came out, but he fell to them so they hopped on him.

Everything said, I'm ready to bust this team apart and start from scratch. However, as the article mentions, the salaries we have won't allow for that to happen in a timely manner. Make each pick count, stay away from D line for now, too risky.

I think the point isnt what kind of team is needed to win, its how to get that winning team. For some reason the Redskins still dont get how its done. I just dont see this organization changing the way it does business until the business owner changes and that aint gonna happen anytime soon.
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Old 01-22-2009, 09:41 AM   #28
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

Irish, explain yourself? Ever since Gibbs left (granted it's a small sample) we went after a few select FAs (Fletcher, Hall) both of which worked out brilliantly, we traded down in the draft to stock pile picks, and we made some good decisions. With the exception of Jason Taylor, I really like what the FO did this offseason. Even Jason Taylor doesn't upset me, I think we have a different tune if his calf wasn't destroyed early in the year.

Yes, our WR's haven't produced. Kelly was by far the most polished product, and he was suffering with injuries since before the season began. Devin Thomas was basically a one year wonder. He has all the physical pieces in place, but he needs to learn the game before becoming an integral part of the offense. Everyone here knows it takes most receivers a long time to develop. According to what I've been hearing on NFL radio, besides QB, WR is one of the hardest transitions in the NFL.
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Old 01-22-2009, 09:51 AM   #29
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

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Irish, explain yourself? Ever since Gibbs left (granted it's a small sample) we went after a few select FAs (Fletcher, Hall) both of which worked out brilliantly, we traded down in the draft to stock pile picks, and we made some good decisions. With the exception of Jason Taylor, I really like what the FO did this offseason. Even Jason Taylor doesn't upset me, I think we have a different tune if his calf wasn't destroyed early in the year.

Yes, our WR's haven't produced. Kelly was by far the most polished product, and he was suffering with injuries since before the season began. Devin Thomas was basically a one year wonder. He has all the physical pieces in place, but he needs to learn the game before becoming an integral part of the offense. Everyone here knows it takes most receivers a long time to develop. According to what I've been hearing on NFL radio, besides QB, WR is one of the hardest transitions in the NFL.
I agree the Skins few FA picks worked out but what did it really get them? IMO, not much as the Skins ended up on the outside again. The teams that know how to do it bring in one or 2 FAs as the last piece of the puzzle. The Skins arent that close yet and they brought in more than that.

Only the Skins would have used their picks last year for 2 WRs and a TE. When the Skins do draft it seems as if they dont have a plan.

For better or worse this owner spends enough $ so that the Skins are never really bad enough to get a #1 or 2 pick. Unfortunately that means they are stuck in this 7-9 to 9-7 range that if all the lucky stars line up they get in the playoffs otherwise they are out and drafting mid pack.
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Old 01-22-2009, 10:13 AM   #30
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

Irish, currently we don't have a #1 WR right now. People like to build Moss up, but he's mediocre. He's a #2, ARE is a #3. I believe the skins went best available in the spot. And I think they did fine with the three picks. I think Fred Davis could be very, very good. I'm also not giving up on our now 2nd year WRs.

Granted, I think this team should get broken apart and rebuilt -- but Redskins fans can't handle it. They're already screaming why our rookie WRs aren't in pro bowls. The skins were competitive the first part of the season -- we were singing Vinny's praises for a great draft and being responsible. Now after the season, it's all of a sudden his fault? I just don't see it. I think Vinny is doing just fine. The guy can spot talent pretty well, he's gotten some very good late picks for us that have contributed.
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