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Marching Orders... Interesting Points

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Old 01-22-2009, 11:22 AM   #31
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

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Originally Posted by Daseal View Post
Irish, currently we don't have a #1 WR right now. People like to build Moss up, but he's mediocre. He's a #2, ARE is a #3. I believe the skins went best available in the spot. And I think they did fine with the three picks. I think Fred Davis could be very, very good. I'm also not giving up on our now 2nd year WRs.

Granted, I think this team should get broken apart and rebuilt -- but Redskins fans can't handle it. They're already screaming why our rookie WRs aren't in pro bowls. The skins were competitive the first part of the season -- we were singing Vinny's praises for a great draft and being responsible. Now after the season, it's all of a sudden his fault? I just don't see it. I think Vinny is doing just fine. The guy can spot talent pretty well, he's gotten some very good late picks for us that have contributed.
That's pretty much the problem. That, and the fact that our owner is also a lifelong fan who sometimes can't separate his passion from his priorities. We need to be willing to be bad, really bad. But...well you see the gameday threads you know how people react.
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:29 AM   #32
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

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Originally Posted by Daseal View Post
Irish, currently we don't have a #1 WR right now. People like to build Moss up, but he's mediocre. He's a #2, ARE is a #3. I believe the skins went best available in the spot. And I think they did fine with the three picks. I think Fred Davis could be very, very good. I'm also not giving up on our now 2nd year WRs.

Granted, I think this team should get broken apart and rebuilt -- but Redskins fans can't handle it. They're already screaming why our rookie WRs aren't in pro bowls. The skins were competitive the first part of the season -- we were singing Vinny's praises for a great draft and being responsible. Now after the season, it's all of a sudden his fault? I just don't see it. I think Vinny is doing just fine. The guy can spot talent pretty well, he's gotten some very good late picks for us that have contributed.
The team didnt need WRs and a TE. It needed and still needs O-line and D-line help.

I agree Redskins fans cant handle the team being broken apart, especially since it was touted how well off Gibbs left this team when in fact he didnt, and thats because it always appears the Skins are close to being a contender but thats because of what I said in an earlier post about the owner spending $. Its not all Vinny's fault, but unfortunately the organization is broken from top to bottom and I dont see it being fixed any time soon.

Lots of teams are competitive early in the season (just ask Buffalo) but the really good ones win in Nov & Dec and then on into Jan. This team doesnt win in Nov & Dec (forget about Jan) and thats what tells me it isnt that good.
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:34 AM   #33
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

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Originally Posted by irish View Post
I think the point isnt what kind of team is needed to win, its how to get that winning team. For some reason the Redskins still dont get how its done. I just dont see this organization changing the way it does business until the business owner changes and that aint gonna happen anytime soon.
You beat me to it Irish, that is it.
For the longest time I have not like the rengotiaton game with the cap. Every offseason we start over the cap and we have work our way below it.
Every year we have players on the roser that are high paid and are not contributuing enough to warrant their pay. Then we can not get rid of them cause of the cap hit or we take a big hit. This year Jon Jansen and Fred Smoot are the example. We can not cut them even though it would better for the team to get rid of their bloated salaries and subpar play with younger/cheaper players.
There guys on this sight that have called what Snyder has done with the cap "genious". I never thought it to be genious because ultimately we do not win enough on the field. It is clever but it has onot worked.
We trade draft picks for old veterans. Then when we do use the few draft picks, under Snyderatto we have drafted mostly skill position players.
All of this it goes against what the repeat Super Bowl winning teams are doing.
While Snyder might be clever in getting around the salary cap, his teams have had no success on the field.
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:36 AM   #34
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

A truly broken organization to me are the Lions, or the Raiders.

The Redskins are a team that always seems to be stuck somewhere in mediocrity. Not horrible, not great. If they stay focused on the draft and continue to use free agency as a supplement to building the roster I really believe they will break through in the next few years. And having the same head coach/system in place for multiple years would be a great benefit as well.
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:43 AM   #35
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daseal View Post
Irish, currently we don't have a #1 WR right now. People like to build Moss up, but he's mediocre. He's a #2, ARE is a #3. I believe the skins went best available in the spot. And I think they did fine with the three picks. I think Fred Davis could be very, very good. I'm also not giving up on our now 2nd year WRs.

Granted, I think this team should get broken apart and rebuilt -- but Redskins fans can't handle it. They're already screaming why our rookie WRs aren't in pro bowls. The skins were competitive the first part of the season -- we were singing Vinny's praises for a great draft and being responsible. Now after the season, it's all of a sudden his fault? I just don't see it. I think Vinny is doing just fine. The guy can spot talent pretty well, he's gotten some very good late picks for us that have contributed.
I can handle a rebuild...and as a season ticket holder I will keep paying for as long as it takes. My only problem is that I don't trust Vinny to do the rebuilding. He is the only constant in Snyders 10+ years here...I don't think everything is his fault...but if I am going to endure a rebuilding project I want someone with a proven track record at the controls. We need a fresh start and it's never a fresh start as long as we keep repackaging Vinny in one role or another.
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:46 AM   #36
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

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Originally Posted by SmootSmack View Post
That's pretty much the problem. That, and the fact that our owner is also a lifelong fan who sometimes can't separate his passion from his priorities. We need to be willing to be bad, really bad. But...well you see the gameday threads you know how people react.
After last seasons, i think the fans can put up with re-building. The team played so painfully bad against the 49ers, Bengals, Lions and Seattle to name a few.
I would rather deal with bad play knowing we are building for the future with young promising players, than deal with bad play and see high priced old timers play like Jansen, Smoot, Fabini, Kendall, Phillip Daniels, Jason Taylor.....etc trot out on to the field each Sunday.
We are spinning our wheels with the way yhte team has been run. It is time for something new.
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:49 AM   #37
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

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Originally Posted by Mattyk72 View Post
A truly broken organization to me are the Lions, or the Raiders.

The Redskins are a team that always seems to be stuck somewhere in mediocrity. Not horrible, not great. If they stay focused on the draft and continue to use free agency as a supplement to building the roster I really believe they will break through in the next few years. And having the same head coach/system in place for multiple years would be a great benefit as well.
I agree those are the truely broken organizations unfortunately the Skins are closer to them than they are to Pgh, NE.

I also agree that the coaching carosel needs to stop. That's another huge problem.

Like I have said, the Skins are stuck in mediocrity because the owner spends enough $ to keep them from ever being horrible (and get them a real impact franchise player) so it appears they are closer than they really are. This team is nowhere close to a championship contender.
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:54 AM   #38
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

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Originally Posted by Mattyk72 View Post
A truly broken organization to me are the Lions, or the Raiders.

The Redskins are a team that always seems to be stuck somewhere in mediocrity. Not horrible, not great. If they stay focused on the draft and continue to use free agency as a supplement to building the roster I really believe they will break through in the next few years. And having the same head coach/system in place for multiple years would be a great benefit as well.
We are the oldest team in the NFl and we have one of the highest payrolls. We have to stop bringing in old FA's. We have to stop renegotiating contracts of old players just to get below the cap, get rid of the old over paid players. Stop trading high draft picks for 34 year old FA's. But we always revert back to these bad practices because it is less painful. We build this team to win today, not to win for tomorrow.
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Old 01-22-2009, 12:20 PM   #39
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

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After last seasons, i think the fans can put up with re-building. The team played so painfully bad against the 49ers, Bengals, Lions and Seattle to name a few.
I would rather deal with bad play knowing we are building for the future with young promising players, than deal with bad play and see high priced old timers play like Jansen, Smoot, Fabini, Kendall, Phillip Daniels, Jason Taylor.....etc trot out on to the field each Sunday.
We are spinning our wheels with the way yhte team has been run. It is time for something new.
I'm curious about this...whether or not fans can put up with rebuilding...or the ownership. I posted something related to this in another thread, when someone brought up the Ravens, Dolphins, and Atlanta. I mentioned that all of those team had losing seasons while rebuilding, and actually acquired some good players through high draft picks they got due to those losing seasons.

I think the fanbase is too impatient. I laugh when people mention the cliche "build through the draft" as an option instead of signing a free agent. i'm not sure these people know that building through the draft typically means getting a lot of young players and not winning many games while they develop. I know this doesn't happen ALL the time, but if you rebuild, you have to be ready to face a losing season.
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Old 01-22-2009, 12:53 PM   #40
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

^ I think it goes back to how you package what your selling. Every year Snyder/Cerrato come out and say "We almost made it, just a couple of new toys and hopefully we get to the SB." We change coach's every 2-5 yrs and still go nowhere. Always the same thing....."We just need to fill a few spots and SB here we come." Guess what .....none of the coach's have been able to package a decent SB run. Not even our beloved Gibbs.

I would like to think if and I mean if the team ever said " We are in rebuilding mode" everyones high expectations would diminish and we would expect mediocracy until a decent team is fielded. I hate the fact that every year team officials say we are so close when we are really not. We have over the hill linemen on both sides of the ball which is partially Gibbs fault cause he always liked the older players that did not make mental mistakes at the line. Remember the...."Over the hill gang."

Is there anything wrong with a team saying to all college prospects that did not get picked in the draft ..."Hey we need linemen on both sides of the ball and if you want a job come to our tryouts." or are they limited as to how many they can have show up?

I'd to an all call for linemen and WR's and CB's. Come one come all. let us evaluate you.
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Old 01-22-2009, 12:56 PM   #41
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

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I'm curious about this...whether or not fans can put up with rebuilding...or the ownership. I posted something related to this in another thread, when someone brought up the Ravens, Dolphins, and Atlanta. I mentioned that all of those team had losing seasons while rebuilding, and actually acquired some good players through high draft picks they got due to those losing seasons.

I think the fanbase is too impatient. I laugh when people mention the cliche "build through the draft" as an option instead of signing a free agent. i'm not sure these people know that building through the draft typically means getting a lot of young players and not winning many games while they develop. I know this doesn't happen ALL the time, but if you rebuild, you have to be ready to face a losing season.
The part that would make any Skins rebuilding process more painful and decrease fan patience is that the Skins havent really had any success that they are rebuilding from. It seems like they have been in a rebuilding mode since the mid 1990s by always trying to catch lightning in a bottle.
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Old 01-22-2009, 12:57 PM   #42
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

Personally I haven't heard any SB talk since prior to the 2006 season.

There's no such thing as rebuilding anymore. In this league you can go from worst to first in one year.

This team doesn't need to blow it all up and start over. Besides, that's not even possible with the cap. What they do need to do is shed as much of the excess as they can this offseason and continue to lean on the draft instead of free agency.
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Old 01-22-2009, 12:57 PM   #43
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re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points

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Originally Posted by Ruhskins View Post
I'm curious about this...whether or not fans can put up with rebuilding...or the ownership. I posted something related to this in another thread, when someone brought up the Ravens, Dolphins, and Atlanta. I mentioned that all of those team had losing seasons while rebuilding, and actually acquired some good players through high draft picks they got due to those losing seasons.

I think the fanbase is too impatient. I laugh when people mention the cliche "build through the draft" as an option instead of signing a free agent. i'm not sure these people know that building through the draft typically means getting a lot of young players and not winning many games while they develop. I know this doesn't happen ALL the time, but if you rebuild, you have to be ready to face a losing season.
I agree with you that if we re-build, in the short team we will lose more than we are now. But you talk like we have been consistantly a winning team. We have not. In the last 16 years we have not had a single season that we have won more than 10 games. In the last 16 years we have only had 5 seasons that we have been over .500.
Take a look below, we have not been a winning team.

1993 4 - 12
1994 3 - 13
1995 6 - 10
1996 9 - 7
1997 8 - 7 - 1
1998 6 - 10
1999 10- 6
2000 8 - 8
2001 8 - 8
2002 7 - 9
2003 5 - 11
2004 6 - 10
2005 10 - 6
2006 5 - 11
2007 9 - 7
2008 8 - 8
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Old 01-22-2009, 01:02 PM   #44
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Re: Marching Orders....Interesting Points

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Nice post. Very nice.
So is this thread! Very nice! I actually tried to post in the News Article forum first thing yesterday because I found it to be so insightful. Readers, do not try to post in the news article!

I hope we do go with OL/DL or vice-versa, but I hope we trade down in order to accumulate more picks. It would be nice to have those three Number #2s............
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Old 01-22-2009, 01:04 PM   #45
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Re: Marching Orders....Interesting Points

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Originally Posted by SBXVII View Post
^ I think it goes back to how you package what your selling. Every year Snyder/Cerrato come out and say "We almost made it, just a couple of new toys and hopefully we get to the SB." We change coach's every 2-5 yrs and still go nowhere. Always the same thing....."We just need to fill a few spots and SB here we come." Guess what .....none of the coach's have been able to package a decent SB run. Not even our beloved Gibbs.

I would like to think if and I mean if the team ever said " We are in rebuilding mode" everyones high expectations would diminish and we would expect mediocracy until a decent team is fielded. I hate the fact that every year team officials say we are so close when we are really not. We have over the hill linemen on both sides of the ball which is partially Gibbs fault cause he always liked the older players that did not make mental mistakes at the line. Remember the...."Over the hill gang."

Is there anything wrong with a team saying to all college prospects that did not get picked in the draft ..."Hey we need linemen on both sides of the ball and if you want a job come to our tryouts." or are they limited as to how many they can have show up?

I'd to an all call for linemen and WR's and CB's. Come one come all. let us evaluate you.
Well that was my question, whether the fans would be patient about this. I mean during the 6-2 start, people's expectations went through the roof despite the fact that we were barely winning games and lost to the Rams. Yes winning cures everything, but people did not see the problems that would eventually lead to 2-6 in the second half of the season. I'm not sure the if the FO has come out and said that we're making a run to the SB. I know when Saunders was brought in, the team and the players set their expectations really high and were talking about the Superbowl. Of course they fell flat on their face and finished with a losing record. I think ever since that season the team has been cautious about expectations, and honestly everyone but Redskins fans expected an 8-8 or less out Zorn.

I think you make a very good point in regards to how Gibbs decision to go with older players is affecting us now. People talk about how we traded picks, did not build through the draft, and went after flashy FAs. Well I think the age factor has to do with the decisions that Gibbs made in working with only old players. Instead of working with a young Patrick Ramsey, he opted to bring in Brunell. I don't think Gibbs was the "let's build through draft" type of coach. And now we're stuck with old players that get hurt all the time, don't contribute much, but cost the team a lot of $$ (and will cost more $$ if they are cut).
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