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Sometimes Its Who You Keep Not Who You Sign

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Old 01-30-2009, 01:16 PM   #46
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Re: Sometimes Its Who You Keep Not Who You Sign

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I think people like to overlook the fact that Gibbs was in some way, shape, or form involved in some of these bad acquisitions. Don't get me wrong, Gibbs did great things for this franchise during his second stint, and I will not overlook that nor am I trying to undermine them. However, a lot things that people like to blame solely on Vinny and Snyder, were done either because of Gibbs or with support. Let's not forget that Snyder gave Gibbs a blank check on decision making, and as it has been stated before, DS or VC would never have gone against Gibbs wishes.
If you look back a page, I did exactly that. As for the current roster, I put about 90% of that on Gibbs. He came in with a 3 year plan and left with a 4 year rebuilding project without the trophy to justify it. The further we get from JG 2.0 the less favorably I view his 2nd stint.
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Old 01-30-2009, 01:20 PM   #47
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Re: Sometimes Its Who You Keep Not Who You Sign

Well we also have completely changed the culture within the organization from when Spurrier was here (trust me, it was a disaster). Hopefully, we've got a QB for the next decade.

But I don't want to start getting into another Gibbs debate again. So I'll just leave this topic alone
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Old 01-30-2009, 01:55 PM   #48
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Re: Sometimes Its Who You Keep Not Who You Sign

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Well we also have completely changed the culture within the organization from when Spurrier was here (trust me, it was a disaster). Hopefully, we've got a QB for the next decade.

But I don't want to start getting into another Gibbs debate again. So I'll just leave this topic alone
I'm just curious. Under Spurrier, how was personnel aquisition organized? Was it all Dan? Did Vinny run the show? Or was Spurrier basically given a green light for whoever he wanted on offense and defense was just whatever looked good in the papers?

I believe it was a disaster. I am just interested in a) What was the culture that made it so disasterous? b) How did Gibbs change it? c) Even though some of the players remain unchanged (anyone still here from the Spurrier era other than VC?), have the changes Gibbs created taken hold?

I realize it my be too early to tell on (c), but I am curious as to your opionion on it.
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Old 01-30-2009, 02:24 PM   #49
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Re: Sometimes Its Who You Keep Not Who You Sign

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I'm just curious. Under Spurrier, how was personnel aquisition organized? Was it all Dan? Did Vinny run the show? Or was Spurrier basically given a green light for whoever he wanted on offense and defense was just whatever looked good in the papers?

I believe it was a disaster. I am just interested in a) What was the culture that made it so disasterous? b) How did Gibbs change it? c) Even though some of the players remain unchanged (anyone still here from the Spurrier era other than VC?), have the changes Gibbs created taken hold?

I realize it my be too early to tell on (c), but I am curious as to your opionion on it.
I think Spurrier pretty much brought in whoever he wanted. I'm a Gator fan, so it pains me to say this, but Danny Weurffel, Shane Matthews, and Jacquez Green were just never going to get it done for us or anyone else. Spurrier also decided that Stephen Davis, who at the time was the single season all-time rushing leader for the Skins, wasn't a "fit," and we let him go in favor of Trung Canidate. It was a pathetic regime to say the least, and it's pretty obvious the Ole Ball Coach had a big say in personnel. Not to mention bringing in a coaching staff full of guys with no NFL experience.

Spurrier had ZERO control over the locker room, and there was no discipline. It was a total trainwreck.
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Old 01-30-2009, 03:00 PM   #50
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Re: Sometimes Its Who You Keep Not Who You Sign

Remember Jansen saying there basically wasn't a weekly gameplan under Spurrier?!
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Old 01-30-2009, 03:10 PM   #51
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Re: Sometimes Its Who You Keep Not Who You Sign

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I think Spurrier pretty much brought in whoever he wanted. I'm a Gator fan, so it pains me to say this, but Danny Weurffel, Shane Matthews, and Jacquez Green were just never going to get it done for us or anyone else. Spurrier also decided that Stephen Davis, who at the time was the single season all-time rushing leader for the Skins, wasn't a "fit," and we let him go in favor of Trung Canidate. It was a pathetic regime to say the least, and it's pretty obvious the Ole Ball Coach had a big say in personnel. Not to mention bringing in a coaching staff full of guys with no NFL experience.

Spurrier had ZERO control over the locker room, and there was no discipline. It was a total trainwreck.
I think this has been said before, but the Spurrier era was like one of those really bad car accidents that you just cannot look away from. I remember that comical moment when Danny Wuerffel had to do the kick off b/c our kicker had gotten hurt. It was funny and pathetic at the same time.
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Old 01-30-2009, 03:47 PM   #52
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Re: Sometimes Its Who You Keep Not Who You Sign

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I'm just curious. Under Spurrier, how was personnel aquisition organized? Was it all Dan? Did Vinny run the show? Or was Spurrier basically given a green light for whoever he wanted on offense and defense was just whatever looked good in the papers?

I believe it was a disaster. I am just interested in a) What was the culture that made it so disasterous? b) How did Gibbs change it? c) Even though some of the players remain unchanged (anyone still here from the Spurrier era other than VC?), have the changes Gibbs created taken hold?

I realize it my be too early to tell on (c), but I am curious as to your opionion on it.
Spurrier didn't give a damn who was playing defense. He couldn't name more than two or three players on defense without a script in front of him.

Under Spurrier, meetings where chaotic and no one was held accountable. Ladell Betts on multiple occassions would doze off and call people on his cell phone. Rod Gardner would do the same. Heck he called me once during a meeting. Players were regularly late to meetings. No one was ever held accountable. Under Gibbs (granted I wasn't actually there for Gibbs, I left right before) there was accountability and an understanding of the consequences of not being responsible. Not in terms of fines but in terms of the respect of your colleagues and the effects on the field.

For all intents and purposes, the true head coach that first year was Marvin Lewis. He was the leader of many meetings, he knew both the offense and defense.

As for player acquisitions and personnel, Snyder just gave Spurrier whatever he wanted, with the occasional minor disagreement. But it was such a joke because Spurrier never attended any personnel evaluation meetings, he would vacation at the start of free agency. You know how most coaches, Gibbs for example, call up a potential free agent, fly out to see him, fly him in to Redskins Park, etc., Spurrier couldn't even be reached by phone during the first days of free agency. The whole Jetskins ordeal of 2003, there was no rhyme or reason to that. That was just Dan and Vinny (mainly Dan) scrambling to do something based on the offense Spurrier said he needed.

That was pretty much the last straw. Snyder wanted Spurrier to succeed, for selfish reasons as well. But changes were ready to happen the next offseason. I believe it would have started with putting Cerrato in charge of the football operations, and responsible for the roster. The same way he is now, but five years earlier. But when Spurrier quit, and Gibbs came aboard, VC took a back seat.

In short, there was no sense of responsibility under Spurrier and he constantly skipped out on important meetings and off-season decisions. It was every man for himself in the locker room. There was no "team"
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Old 01-30-2009, 03:49 PM   #53
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Re: Sometimes Its Who You Keep Not Who You Sign

Ryan Clark was a great compliment to ST, and was one of my favorite Redskins. I remember seeing big hits on the field and assuming it was #21, but then see #25 get up from the pile. I remember one of the Skins saying "Ryan Clark will separate your body from your soul." He was apparently a very positive force in the locker room too, which yes, actually does matter.

It was a big mistake not re-signing him, and I believe it speaks volumes about GW's ego. The Skins would get beat down the middle, and obviously in GW's mind it couldn't be the fault of his genius Cover-2 scheme, it must be the inferior safety's fault. Goodbye Clark, hello Arch. Also speaks volumes about the Skins FO, as there wasn't a qualified GM to overrule Gregg.

I'm happy for Ryan, he and his well-run team deserve to win a few Superbowls.
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Old 01-30-2009, 03:51 PM   #54
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Re: Sometimes Its Who You Keep Not Who You Sign

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Remember Jansen saying there basically wasn't a weekly gameplan under Spurrier?!
Oh yeah. I forget which player said it, but I remember the quote - "I've played NFL Football. And this is not NFL football."

Spurrier tried week in and week out to get Ramsey killed.

Those were tough times for me, and I was in a unique spot. There aren't too many Redskins fans who are also Gator fans. So my Gators lost the Ball Coach, and replaced him with Zook who was a disaster. So I'm thinking, hey, at least I'll get to see Spurrier torch opposing defenses as the HC of my beloved Redskins. Oops. I had to suffer through the Spurrier/Zook debacles simultaneously. It was awful.
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Old 01-30-2009, 03:55 PM   #55
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Re: Sometimes Its Who You Keep Not Who You Sign

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Under Spurrier, meetings where chaotic and no one was held accountable. Ladell Betts on multiple occassions would doze off and call people on his cell phone. Rod Gardner would do the same. Heck he called me once during a meeting. Players were regularly late to meetings. No one was ever held accountable. Under Gibbs (granted I wasn't actually there for Gibbs, I left right before) there was accountability and an understanding of the consequences of not being responsible. Not in terms of fines but in terms of the respect of your colleagues and the effects on the field.
Gardner called you? Are you joking? Did you tell him to hang up the phone and pay attention?

Were you covering the Redskins when you were here or something?
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Old 01-30-2009, 03:56 PM   #56
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Re: Sometimes Its Who You Keep Not Who You Sign

great post there smootsmack, thanks. ive repressed all spurrier memories except the first pre-season game against the 9ers.

go skins!!
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Old 01-30-2009, 04:07 PM   #57
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Re: Sometimes Its Who You Keep Not Who You Sign

LOL @ the Spurrier memories. Anyone else recall the story about (I think) a Monday night game and he told them if they won they wouldn't have to come back until the following Friday to do the walk thru for the next game? It was some madness like that.

SS, I agree that those were disastrous years but in hindsight, I would have rather learned then if Cerrato was going to succeed versus learning now with a much older roster and much less cap space.
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Old 01-30-2009, 04:12 PM   #58
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Re: Sometimes Its Who You Keep Not Who You Sign

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LOL @ the Spurrier memories. Anyone else recall the story about (I think) a Monday night game and he told them if they won they wouldn't have to come back until the following Friday to do the walk thru for the next game? It was some madness like that.

SS, I agree that those were disastrous years but in hindsight, I would have rather learned then if Cerrato was going to succeed versus learning now with a much older roster and much less cap space.
I think it was a Sunday game, and we played the following Thursday. I'm pretty sure he said if we won the players would have off until Wednesday. What a joke.
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Old 01-30-2009, 04:26 PM   #59
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Re: Sometimes Its Who You Keep Not Who You Sign

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I think we it was a Sunday game, and we played the following Thursday. I'm pretty sure he said if we won the players would have off until Wednesday. What a joke.
YES! That was it.. We lost that Sunday game, but how incredible would it have been if that had come to fruition?
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Old 01-30-2009, 05:23 PM   #60
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Re: Sometimes Its Who You Keep Not Who You Sign

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Gardner called you? Are you joking? Did you tell him to hang up the phone and pay attention?

Were you covering the Redskins when you were here or something?
Redskins, Caps, Wizards, United, bid to bring baseball to DC, Eagles, Hoyas, Terps, Colonials, Patriots (GMU), and assorted other local teams. Sometimes when you'd turn on the news and see such and such player answering a question or a special piece on "Barbecuing with Dana Stubblefield" but you never saw the reporter who was asking the question, I was often the "reporter" on the other side of the camera asking the question. But you know, union rules, couldn't get on camera.

But I digress.

Yeah he called me. I mean we weren't like buddies or anything. He was friends with a couple of co-workers that I was also friends with and he would call to find out where the party was that night, or to let us know. So yeah he called me at work one day

Smootsmack: Hello
Rod Gardner: Yo SmootSmack (not my real name)! What's up? It's Rod Gardner. Dre gave me your number
SS: Hey, how's it going?
Rod: Cool, cool. Yo I'm hittin' up Club Scud (not a real place) Friday with Chris (Samuels) and Tre (Johnson). We've got about 20 friends coming with us. Let your boy know (had a friend who ran parties at clubs down in DC). You gonna be there?
SS: Maybe. (of course, 95% of the time I'd see him downtown he compeletly ignored me). I'm working late tonight, trying to get out of here as soon as possible though.
Rod: I got you. I'm just waiting for this team meeting to end
SS: You're in a meeting? Damn, let me let you go then
Rod: Nah, you know how coach is, he's cool. It's alright. I know what I gotta do (thing is, he usually did, but what a terrible example). Plus, I can hear him out my other ear anyway
SS: Yeah, I gotta run Rod. I'll talk to you later
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