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Old 03-06-2004, 01:38 PM   #16
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I could not agree more, Beemnseven. I have argued those exact same points with Daseal before. His opinion will not be changed, no matter how precise and logical our arguments are.
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Old 03-06-2004, 01:43 PM   #17
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Define "we". "WE" the fans? The fans don't have a say one way or the other. The NFL decides who gets to play in their league and who doesn't. Clarett should no more be able to demand to play in the NFL than you or I.
Change that to they, I think you're bright enough to figure out I meant we as a nation. We as football people of all sorts. More specifically the NFL.

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So what? I'm trying to make a living too! That doesn't entitle me to seek a court order demanding that I get into a doctor's office to start practicing medicine because, "I'm trying to make a living!"
Ok, let's use my analogy this time! You're going to college, a firm comes out and offers you 100K a year if you join now, however if you stay in college you'll only get 60K a year when you get out no matter where you go. I think that you can do the math here and figure out what you'll be doing. Money is a huge part of football, no one can deny that. Clarett isn't exactly a Field Hockey Player trying to make the transition into football, he's been a football player since he can remember. You haven't been training to be a doctor since you can remember.


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Fine. He may be an amazing talent. But I disagree with your premise that he "carried his team to a national championship". Football is the ultimate team sport. No one player singlehandedly leads any team anywhere without the cooperation, talent, and motivation of other members of the team.
Individual talent is not to be ignored. Don't let all the media hype fool you, unless you have players you can't do anything. Think the Patriots would have made it to the SuperBowl without Ty Law? Brueski, Brady? Answer: NO. Stars are needed. Barry Sanders never had shit around him and he still made the Lions orginization a lot better by himself. Had Barry had any sort of line or even a longer career in that shithole he would own every RB record known to man. Clarett didn't win by himself, but he was the key reason they did so well, they fed it to him and threw easy short passes. Clarett made that team.

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The NFL is a private organization, Daseal. No one should be able to sue a private organization to demand entry. Let me ask you this: Can I seek an injunction to enter your home, despite your contention that your house is private property and you have the right to let in whomever you want? According to your logic, I can. I have every right to walk into your house by the order of a court simply based upon my opinion that I "deserve" to be there. And not you, or anyone else can stop me.
If you get a court order to live in my house, I am forced by law to abide, you'd never get one because it's an unreasonable request, but it could happen. If you and the judge agree that you "deserve" to be there then you most likely will be there. You're forgetting a key aspect of the Clarett case. THEY HAD TO GO THROUGH THE LEGAL PROCESS which you seem to be completely skipping in your analogies. Also, you can demand entry into the NFL. They are a private orginization, this means abosolutly nothing. Golf Courses that are male only still have to hire females that are qualified due to equal oppurtunity employment. They can let females not play because they would have to be paying members which they can neglect services to, however they can NOT keep females from working there. Just like the NFL can't keep legal adults out, unless the FCC says Football below age 21 is hazardous to your health, which is absurd.

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And it's a ruling by a judge who admitted that she had never seen more than one half of a football game in her entire life.
That's good, she doesn't have any sort of bias which is what we want in the court room. Someone who doesn't give a rats ass either way as far as this ruling goes she saw a kid trying to play but being kept out from laws that are ILLEGAL. Understand that, the NFL rules violate US law.

Defensewins: I agree with you, but remember, no age group gets bullied around like the 16-21 age group. We have no political power because we can't run, no political pull because we're poor and no real impact on elections since we have a poor turnout. However if someone steps up and organizes this age demographic some people could be in deep shit. We're also the age group that spends frivilously. Look at the laws, you can't do shit till you're 21. You have to take all the responsibility of an adult without any of lifes simple pleasres. Drinking, Gambling, etc. Of course I can enter into a legally binding contract but I can't have a glass of wine at dinner. Hell, I can't even buy cooking wine... which granted I personally wouldn't use... but hey!

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The difference is that while any college student can drop out of college to seek work, they cannot go to court and sue to get into a position the employer feels they are not qualified for. It is, after all, the employers decision whether or not they hire the applicant.
Who feels Clarett isn't qualified for the NFL? Very few people don't think he can play in this league, most people are upset because their beloved college teams can no longer just exploit these guys for cash. It's also the employeers decesion to pick up players or not. The NFL doesn't sign the checks, the team does. Teams don't HAVE to draft Clarett, teams don't HAVE to pick him up as an Undrafted agent. However he is talented, so they will. And you can sue for positions if you feel you were unfairly discriminated against. Just like those multiple lawsuits against colleges because a white student who was a better student was kept out because of affirmative action. Same with jobs, people sue if they feel they didn't get it because of some kind of descrimination (age, gender, race, etc)

DefenseWins, you're absolutly right. It's called Equal Oppurtunity Employment. Very few places are exempt from it. I mean, no one wants to see a man modeling lingerie. The NFL shouldn't be, yes this means the doors could open to women, but they better get ready to get the shit hit out of them, because you can't let someone score or catch because they're female.
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Old 03-06-2004, 01:51 PM   #18
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Can the NFLPA disallow underclassmen from joing their association? If so and they do (which is very unlikely), then that would correspond to your country club analogy. Just because the club (NFL) must hire you doesn't mean that you automatically get all the perks of the club (ie no NFLPA support).
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Old 03-06-2004, 01:56 PM   #19
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It depends on the NFLPA's rules. If it has a certain age limit then yes, if it says the requirements are all NFL players, then no, they can't. They can keep them out of the association, but not the league.
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Old 03-06-2004, 02:01 PM   #20
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I knew it depended on their rules, thats why I asked if anyone knew.
Disallowing underclassmen from joining the NFLPA would go a long way to keeping them out of the NFL. The NFLPA might go for this as underclassmen would take jobs of older, more experienced veterans (more costly).
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Old 03-06-2004, 02:29 PM   #21
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if the nfl owners banded together and drcided not to draft any of these guys could they be sued?one could say that they are guilty of age discrimination could'nt they?
i do'nt agree with these guys coming out of high school to the nfl,however if they are of certain age and pass the physical i do'nt see how they can be denied the chance to try.i think it's a mistake,but we all have our own lives to lead.
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Old 03-06-2004, 02:38 PM   #22
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Hmm, it's not like LeBron James is any good in the NBA.

I'm just not sure why we treat College as anything other than a farm system for the pros. In basebal, hockey and international soccer, you go with actual farm clubs, and if you're good enough, you move up to the top squad. If not, you learn. We have this weird setup where these guys, whose profession is sports, have to go to college and take algebra and philosophy. Imagine if we made entertainers do that? Why should it matter for athletes? If you can do the job, you should have the opportuinity to get the job. If you can't, that's that. Why allow an organization to have a restrictive policy like this? Merit should be the rule, here as everywhere else.

And don't forget, the colleges make a ton of money,and the players get nothing! How many great athletes have been screwed over by the recruitment and elligibilty rules in football? Imagine that in other fields? Have you ever seen what a law firm does when it recruits new talent? Why should football players be blocked from getting the fair market value for their services? I'm not sure I see how football is so different from everything else, except that it is the greatest sport on Earth.

Let the players play, if they've got the abilities.
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Old 03-06-2004, 02:42 PM   #23
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Right on JWSleep. Not to mention, if the allstars go to the pros it will open up more oppurtunities for the players that actually need schoolarships. People that will go through 4 years of college and get a degree that they use. This gives more needing people money and makes the players happy.
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Old 03-06-2004, 02:50 PM   #24
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i do'nt think they should go straight to the pros,but i do'nt think anybody has the right to tell them they can't try however.
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Old 03-06-2004, 06:52 PM   #25
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Stipud kids, they probably weren't elligible to play in college or they are just plain stupid. Non of the guys who declared were top prospects according to Tom Lemming. Don't they know they're all gonna have huge bullseyes on there chests if they ever somehow get to a training camp.
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Old 03-06-2004, 07:05 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daseal
Ok, let's use my analogy this time! You're going to college, a firm comes out and offers you 100K a year if you join now, however if you stay in college you'll only get 60K a year when you get out no matter where you go. I think that you can do the math here and figure out what you'll be doing. Money is a huge part of football, no one can deny that. Clarett isn't exactly a Field Hockey Player trying to make the transition into football, he's been a football player since he can remember. You haven't been training to be a doctor since you can remember.
First of all, the question here isn't whether I would take $60,000 over $100,000. That answer is obvious, but insignificant to the issue. There is no doubt Clarett wants to earn money. We all do. But we cannot sue prospective employers demanding them to hire us before we meet the qualifications of the employer. Secondly, your analogy doesn't make sense because no firm would offer more money to a sophomore than a senior who has had more college training. And it doesn't matter if I haven't training to be a doctor ever since I can remember. Maurice Clarett felt he was qualified to play in the NFL, the NFL disagreed. If someone said to a doctor, "hey, I've had one year of experience in medical school! Let me practice medicine, or I'll sue you!" -- according to your logic, the court should force the doctor to let them practice.

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Originally Posted by Daseal
If you get a court order to live in my house, I am forced by law to abide, you'd never get one because it's an unreasonable request, but it could happen. If you and the judge agree that you "deserve" to be there then you most likely will be there.
And that Daseal, is insane. I will say this for you though, you're consistent with this absurd position. By the way, I bet there were quite a few people who thought that Clarett's request to enter the NFL before he was eligible was unreasonable too.

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You're forgetting a key aspect of the Clarett case. THEY HAD TO GO THROUGH THE LEGAL PROCESS which you seem to be completely skipping in your analogies.
I certainly haven't forgotten that. Didn't you read the words I chose: injunctions, court orders, 'sue to gain entry'. I am not denying that Clarett went about his crusade through the courts. My contention is that the court decision is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Daseal
Also, you can demand entry into the NFL. They are a private orginization, this means abosolutly nothing. Golf Courses that are male only still have to hire females that are qualified due to equal oppurtunity employment. They can let females not play because they would have to be paying members which they can neglect services to, however they can NOT keep females from working there.
You're talking about two different things here. There is a difference between allowing Maurice Clarett entry into the NFL based on their own eligibility rules, and disallowing him based on race, color, national origin, sex, or age. The NFL makes its decision to allow athletes based on the number of years after high school. For most, that means forgoing their junior year of college. It has nothing to do with age, or any of the aforementioned civil rights or equal opportunity employment issues. The fact is, the NFL doesn't even need a reason to justify why the rules are the way they are. It could be because that's when the NFL decided that a football player has gained the necessary experience to play in their league. But again, it doesn't matter. IT IS THEIR LEAGUE AND THEY CAN MAKE WHATEVER RULES THEY WANT.

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Originally Posted by Daseal
Who feels Clarett isn't qualified for the NFL?
The NFL feels he isn't qualified. Says so in their eligibility rules.

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Originally Posted by Daseal
It's also the employeers decesion to pick up players or not. The NFL doesn't sign the checks, the team does. Teams don't HAVE to draft Clarett, teams don't HAVE to pick him up as an Undrafted agent. However he is talented, so they will. And you can sue for positions if you feel you were unfairly discriminated against. Same with jobs, people sue if they feel they didn't get it because of some kind of descrimination (age, gender, race, etc)?
Every team must operate within the guidelines and rules of the NFL. And yes, now that the verdict is in, some team may very well draft him, or sign him through undrafted free agency. I know I can sue based upon anti-discrimination laws, but that's not the reason Clarett was denied entry.
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Old 03-06-2004, 07:21 PM   #27
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So an emloyer can set up a job qualification like all employees must white and deny all minority's the job? I am not a laywer (so i might be wrong) but I think there are laws that say employers can not discriminate because of race, religion and age. There are child protection laws that prevent the hiring of someone under a certain age (14?).
If you are old enough to be drafted by our goverment to go to war and die, you are old enough to work in any field.
An employer cannot refuse to hire anyone based on their color, race, or national origin. Just because anyone over the age of 18 is qualified to fire a gun at the enemy and risk bodily injury or death, doesn't instantly qualify them to apply for and get any job they want.

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Correct me if am wrong, but aren't there brilliant minds in our country that accelerate their education and graduate from college and somtimes medical or law school way before thier time. Do we deny them the ability to work?
No, there are rare cases like this, but again, an employer in this situation would make a hiring decision based on their qualifications. Someone who has passed through medical or law school 'way before their time' will most likely be hired because they have accomplished the necessary requirements to work in those fields. In the Clarett case, he is unqualified based on the number of years that have passed since he graduated from high school -- in other words, he has not met the specific requirements to play football in the NFL. Simple as that.
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Old 03-06-2004, 07:48 PM   #28
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First of all, the question here isn't whether I would take $60,000 over $100,000. That answer is obvious, but insignificant to the issue. There is no doubt Clarett wants to earn money. We all do. But we cannot sue prospective employers demanding them to hire us before we meet the qualifications of the employer. Secondly, your analogy doesn't make sense because no firm would offer more money to a sophomore than a senior who has had more college training.
Of course it doesn't make sense. I was trying to put it in terms you might be able to fathom since your mindset seems to be running one way. Clarett had an amazing year, if the next year he has isn't so good HE LOSES MONEY. Simple as that. Had he gone out right after buckeyes season he would have easily been a top 5 draft pick. Only reason anyone is slightly tentive about him is he's been away from football for a little while. And yes, we CAN sue if the employeers qualifications are unreasonable. Which in this case it was decided that they were. He was kept out because of his age, yes it goes by years out of high school, but you know what, that argument doesn't hold water, because of the NFL draft Clarett should have been out of HS for 3 years. He graduated early, in December of 2000, I'm pretty sure. The NFL then quickly said, oh well we didn't mean for it to work like that! So they sued with anti-trust laws, which were OVIOUSLY broken.

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And that Daseal, is insane. I will say this for you though, you're consistent with this absurd position. By the way, I bet there were quite a few people who thought that Clarett's request to enter the NFL before he was eligible was unreasonable too.
This is far from absurd. If there was a court order given for you to live in my house I can not stop you. I can appeal and hope that goes through, but if it is finalized nothing I can do. Yes, many people thought his request was unreasonable, but others of us saw it coming from a mile away and think it's a positive thing.

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My contention is that the court decision is wrong.
So go spend some money on Capitol Hill and lobby to get anti-trust laws voided. Goodluck.

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NFL makes its decision to allow athletes based on the number of years after high school. For most, that means forgoing their junior year of college. It has nothing to do with age, or any of the aforementioned civil rights or equal opportunity employment issues. The fact is, the NFL doesn't even need a reason to justify why the rules are the way they are. It could be because that's when the NFL decided that a football player has gained the necessary experience to play in their league.
Wrong. They have to pass a physical which makes them eligible. They won't let someone my size in unless they play kicker! They do need to justify their rules, otherwise they will be overturned like we saw. The NFL will have younger kids in it, get used to it. These players will still go to college for a year or two I bet, they just want to come out when they feel they're ready. No one's bitching about Mike Williams coming out. Clarett is a better player than Mike Williams, in my honest opinion. He's a tough little bastard and he can run hard. I think it was Michael Clayton that said he expected 10-12 underclassment to come out. This is something college players wanted for a long time. Also, the NFL is discriminating. It's age, don't let the wording fool you. You think they would let a genius who graduated highschool at 13 play in the NFL when he was 16? Nope, they'd find ways around it.

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The NFL feels he isn't qualified. Says so in their eligibility rules.
Who gives a shit? They have special interests to protect that don't pertain to the NFL at all. Ask any sports 'expert' if physically and mentally Clarett can play ball. 90% will say yes, but they're worried about the ones that aren't.

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Every team must operate within the guidelines and rules of the NFL. And yes, now that the verdict is in, some team may very well draft him, or sign him through undrafted free agency. I know I can sue based upon anti-discrimination laws, but that's not the reason Clarett was denied entry.
Anti-trust laws.

Either way, don't get too worked up. After the NFL draft the NFL lawyers will file an appeal and Clarett will no longer have reason to fight it. The NFL will go closed door until sued again.
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Old 03-06-2004, 08:01 PM   #29
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You know... to put my 2 cents in on this whole situation...

I think it's pretty wild how people can say that the ruling wasn't justified.

I hate to point this out and get in the middle of this whole argument, but many times in your statements Beem, you basically infer that someone can "sue to GET a job" as a doctor or whatever with no experience.

What's wrong with that is the fact that all this ruling decides is that they have the right to APPLY for that position. If I wanted to try and get a job as a surgeon? At least I CAN apply. Naturally they'd laugh me out of the hospital, because I am nowhere near QUALIFIED, nor do I have the SKILL... but see, deciding whether I am qualified and talented enough? That is up to the individual hospital director.

You can't say to someone over the age of 18, sorry, you can't even APPLY for this job because of your age. All Clarett's ruling says, is that if you are old enough to vote, old enough to fight for this country... you are old enough to TRY and make a living for yourself.

It's strange how people are sooooo dead set against this. I mean, the owners should be able to hire Mickey Mouse if they want to. They OWN that franchise and could run into the ground if they choose. I mean, come on man, do you REALLY think this will "RUIN FOTBALL FOREVER AND EVER" ??

If an 18 year old kid gets drafted, he'd go to camp, and if he sucked, he wouldn't start, and would be cut. That simple. That team just wasted a draft pick... big deal. Just because a guy high-schooler gets drafted doesn't mean he's going to be killed on the football field.

That is one thing I think is REALLY exaggerated in this whole thing... the saying that 18 year-olds would be killed by these NFL players.

Sean Taylor is being compared to Ronnie Lott, laying out devestating blows on opponent's wide recievers... many of whom are 18-19. I don't recall him actually brutalizing or permantly injuring any of these young bucks.

I personally am not a Clarrett fan, but my whole school of thought is... If a kid is 18, not booksmart, but one HELLof a great mechanic... when he gets out of high school, he should be able to get a job as such. To make a mechanic go to at least 3 years of college first wouldn't make sense to me, or seem fair.

I really don't see how this is such a tremendously awful thing.
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Old 03-06-2004, 08:24 PM   #30
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the ruling says that they have the right to enter the nfl draft,it does however mean that the legue is going to pick them.they deserve the right to try out as much as the league deserves the right to not pick them.very good point friend....
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