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Seems like Cutler might be available.

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Old 03-19-2009, 05:01 PM   #256
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Re: Seems like Cutler might be available.

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Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat View Post
is that enough for you?

1td and 2 sacks per game and a meager 86.2 qb rating?

if you factor out his freakish uncharacteristic run of no tds in the first part of the season, he'd be averaging almost as many INTs as touchdowns.

jay cutler was a better qb his 2nd year than campbell will likely be in his fifth. jc, who will likely never be more than an average qb improved dramatically under zorns tutelage. now imagine what zorn could do with someone like cutler. the ceiling is low with campbell. with cutler, the skys the limit.
Zorn has a year left to prove himself, I don't think he's going to want to risk it by teaching another QB his system all over again. And you overlook the fact that Cutler's 2nd year was under the same offense and coach.
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Old 03-19-2009, 05:13 PM   #257
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Re: Seems like Cutler might be available.

My bottom line is really simple: After next year JC will have had his full contract to prove his doubters wrong or right. I believe they are wrong and that he is going to have a standout year, and then you know what doubters/haters will say... oh he only played that way because it was a contract year.
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Old 03-19-2009, 05:47 PM   #258
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Re: Seems like Cutler might be available.

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Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat View Post
is that enough for you?

1td and 2 sacks per game and a meager 86.2 qb rating?

if you factor out his freakish uncharacteristic run of no tds in the first part of the season, he'd be averaging almost as many INTs as touchdowns.

jay cutler was a better qb his 2nd year than campbell will likely be in his fifth. jc, who will likely never be more than an average qb improved dramatically under zorns tutelage. now imagine what zorn could do with someone like cutler. the ceiling is low with campbell. with cutler, the skys the limit.
You mean, in this offense, with Moss and Randle El as the only targets on the outside, and with no more help on the OL and at TE, 86.2 isn't good enough?

Look, Cutler's a career 3 to 2 TD/INT guy. His career completion percentage is about two points higher than Campbell, but they were equal last year. If I ran Cutler's stats in the Redskins' regression equation (which I can't, accurately at least, because there's zero Cutler on Redskins data), but they'd look something like:

Cutler 09 - 361/575, 4025 yds, 20 TDs, 16 INTs

Yards per Attempt = 7.0 (this is down from Cutler's career average, Skins adjustment)
Completion Pecentage = 62.8%

The QB rating with these numbers would be = 83.6


Which is actually less valuable in the current offense, because the huge increase in INTs would outweigh the TDs and Yds increase pretty significantly.

Cutler is actually really good at not getting sacked, but Campbell is no slouch.

Cutler/Campbell are really no different as prospects. They have basically the same record (16-20 vs. 17-20), and Cutler snuck into the pro bowl in the weaker conference this year, but there's no objective reason to assume one has a low ceiling, and the other could improve forever. That's just perception.
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Old 03-19-2009, 05:50 PM   #259
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Re: Seems like Cutler might be available.

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My bottom line is really simple: After next year JC will have had his full contract to prove his doubters wrong or right. I believe they are wrong and that he is going to have a standout year, and then you know what doubters/haters will say... oh he only played that way because it was a contract year.
I can't see anyone questioning JC's character like that...they may question his talent but everyone knows he's a standup guy. Anyone who thinks JC would only give his best in a contract year doesn't have a clue.
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Old 03-19-2009, 05:53 PM   #260
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Re: Seems like Cutler might be available.

I'll re-state the other point: that if we improve the offense around Campbell, his rating projection instantly goes up. The number I have above assumes that the offense around him is no better than the mean average of the last 2.5 seasons, because that's the only assumption that can be made. If Kelly has a breakout year, Campbell's effortlessly in the 90's with 20+ TDs. If the OL improves and Kelly and Davis both break out, well, now Jason Campbell is a pro bowler.
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Old 03-19-2009, 05:56 PM   #261
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Re: Seems like Cutler might be available.

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I can't see anyone questioning JC's character like that...they may question his talent but everyone knows he's a standup guy. Anyone who thinks JC would only give his best in a contract year doesn't have a clue.
Screw multiyear contracts, if i was the FO id sign only one year contracts so every year was a contract year. But yeah that would be crazy eh.
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Old 03-19-2009, 06:03 PM   #262
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Re: Seems like Cutler might be available.

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Personally I don't think 3 new offenses in 4 years is an excuse. The reality of it is it's tough to get comfortable as a young QB if you're always learning a new system every offseason.

I'd love to see an example of a QB who has gone through what JC has in regard to system changes and didn't struggle.
there's a flip-side to that coin - if campbell had looked good in any one of those systems, the system wouldn't have been changed.
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Old 03-19-2009, 06:06 PM   #263
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Re: Seems like Cutler might be available.

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there's a flip-side to that coin - if campbell had looked good in any one of those systems, the system wouldn't have been changed.
Well, the thing with Saunders' system is that we couldn't run the ball.

Losing Dockery really hurt us there, because Kendall was ill-suited for that type of run blocking (much like Randy Thomas seems a bit ill-suited for the current run blocking).
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Old 03-19-2009, 06:18 PM   #264
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Re: Seems like Cutler might be available.

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there's a flip-side to that coin - if campbell had looked good in any one of those systems, the system wouldn't have been changed.
I don't think JC was the reasons for the system changes. Gibbs thought the team would be better off with someone else running the O so he hired Saunders. Saunders was then ousted when Gibbs left and then Zorn was hired. JC barely had the chance to get comfortable before each change was made and the reason for the changes were out of his hands.
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Old 03-19-2009, 07:30 PM   #265
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Re: Seems like Cutler might be available.

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I don't think JC was the reasons for the system changes. Gibbs thought the team would be better off with someone else running the O so he hired Saunders. Saunders was then ousted when Gibbs left and then Zorn was hired. JC barely had the chance to get comfortable before each change was made and the reason for the changes were out of his hands.
Saunders playbook was ridiculous, and the terminology was different from what Campbell first learned in his pro career under gibbs but the general schemes and principles were similar. Campbell spent 1 year sitting on a bench under a pure Gibbs system. He then spent two years - the majority of which he spent as a starter - under Saunders. Those systems are systems which (supposedly) Campbell is an ideal fit for - they cover over his weaknesses while taking advantage of his strengths.

Campbell had two years in that system - one which has done very very well for other quarterbacks - yet the team chose to fire Saunders when Gibbs retired. It wasnt an automatic decision to fire Saunders either. Its not like Gibbs and Saunders were tied at the hip. If Campbell had been doing well and showing improvement and looking like he could be a franchise quarterback after two years in an identical system (and three years if you accept the fact that Saunders offense is similar to the one Gibbs ran before), then they would have kept Saunders. They didnt. Why does everyone think now - suddenly, after spending two years in a system that goes against Campbells strengths - is he suddenly going to be a franchise QB? Two years in a system didnt work before. why does everyone think two years is the answer now? People make excuses about how bad the line is now and how that hurts campell... how he doesnt have receivers... his receivers werent any better under Saunders but his O-line sure as hell was. We had a dominant O-line in Campbells 2nd year in this system... and he still failed. Our offense didnt take off in that system until we had a competent QB playing when Campbell got hurt.

Campbell is not a franchise QB. He never will be. He's not horrible though - he's just average. If this franchise made a mistake when Gibbs left, it was not trying to trade Campbell last offseason. Theres no reason to continue this experiment. We need to trade Campbell now, while he still has some value. If not, we'll waste another season, miss out on getting compensation for him, and have to start the process over again next year.

Jay Cutler is - right now - a well above-average WCO quarterback. He has potential to be a perennial pro-bowler. Campbells potential will only get us where Cutler is right now. If we could (hypothetically) trade Campbell, our 13th overall pick, and a conditional pick in next years draft for Cutler... it would be well worth it in the long-term. Short-term, it would suck, but long-term, we need to look beyond Jason Campbell. Guys like Cutler dont come around very often. When they do, you have to do what you can to get them. Just my opinion, I know 99% of you dont agree with me.

A year from now, we'll know who was right. From my position, if i'm wrong, its something i would be happy to be wrong about.
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Old 03-19-2009, 07:40 PM   #266
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Re: Seems like Cutler might be available.

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I'll re-state the other point: that if we improve the offense around Campbell, his rating projection instantly goes up. The number I have above assumes that the offense around him is no better than the mean average of the last 2.5 seasons, because that's the only assumption that can be made. If Kelly has a breakout year, Campbell's effortlessly in the 90's with 20+ TDs. If the OL improves and Kelly and Davis both break out, well, now Jason Campbell is a pro bowler.
I'm a JC supporter and have been since he got here. But I think if you went around the NFL and asked NFL defensive coordinators, players and coaches who the better player is they'd probably all go with Cutler. I don't need to look at stats to tell me that he's a bit better right now. Now a lot goes into that. Coaching, stability and the talent around them. Cutler has had all those things in his favor. But as I mentioned before he also seems to get the ball out quicker, has the better release and processes information quicker. I'm really interested in seeing Campbell take his game to the next level, meaning he needs to start being able to win some games for us and carry the offense. Cutler has already done some of those things and now it's time for Campbell to do it.
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Old 03-19-2009, 07:56 PM   #267
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Re: Seems like Cutler might be available.

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I'm a JC supporter and have been since he got here. But I think if you went around the NFL and asked NFL defensive coordinators, players and coaches who the better player is they'd probably all go with Cutler. I don't need to look at stats to tell me that he's a bit better right now. Now a lot goes into that. Coaching, stability and the talent around them. Cutler has had all those things in his favor. But as I mentioned before he also seems to get the ball out quicker, has the better release and processes information quicker. I'm really interested in seeing Campbell take his game to the next level, meaning he needs to start being able to win some games for us and carry the offense. Cutler has already done some of those things and now it's time for Campbell to do it.
i agree with you too,I'm a JC supporter also but Cutler is better,Cutler had no resemblance of a defense and sometimes had to force the ball a lot more to try and win games,if he had a good defense his ints would not be that high imo
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Old 03-19-2009, 08:28 PM   #268
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Re: Seems like Cutler might be available.

So let me get this straight, you people want to...

- Trade away our #13th pick for another player (after everyone bitches and whines about the FO trading away picks and not "building through the draft"), because I'm sure we'd be losing this pick in some sort of trade.

- Trade for a player who has caused a PR nightmare for his team and probably the reason why it is not seen as a big deal is b/c he's a QB (if he were a receiver, he'd be compared to TO).

- Disrupt the continuity of having our current QB with the same coach and offense, something that hasn't happened in a while (don't tell me the Gibbs and Saunders had the same system).

- Completely disregard JCs performance during the first 8 games when he had a working line and a healthy CP.

- Officially putting Zorn on a short leash, since bringing Cutler here would give us the whole "when is Shanahan getting hired" talk all season.

Once again, I don't know why continuity for more than one or two seasons is undervalued. The only way we should bring someone like Cutler would be if the team decided to completely blow up the team, which that hasn't happened.
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Old 03-19-2009, 09:11 PM   #269
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Re: Seems like Cutler might be available.

[QUOTE=BigHairedAristocrat;538386]is that enough for you?

1td and 2 sacks per game and a meager 86.2 qb rating?

if you factor out his freakish uncharacteristic run of no tds in the first part of the season, he'd be averaging almost as many INTs as touchdowns.

jay cutler was a better qb his 2nd year than campbell will likely be in his fifth. jc, who will likely never be more than an average qb improved dramatically under zorns tutelage. now imagine what zorn could do with someone like cutler. the ceiling is low with campbell. with cutler, the skys the limit.[/QUOTE]

J.C. will never be more than average but he improved dramatically under Zorn? In his first year right? I don't know how he can improve dramatically in one year and be doomed to never be more than average. I'm not ready to put a ceiling on J.C. myself. Not yet.
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Old 03-19-2009, 09:21 PM   #270
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Re: Seems like Cutler might be available.

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So let me get this straight, you people want to...

- Trade away our #13th pick for another player (after everyone bitches and whines about the FO trading away picks and not "building through the draft"), because I'm sure we'd be losing this pick in some sort of trade.

- Trade for a player who has caused a PR nightmare for his team and probably the reason why it is not seen as a big deal is b/c he's a QB (if he were a receiver, he'd be compared to TO).

- Disrupt the continuity of having our current QB with the same coach and offense, something that hasn't happened in a while (don't tell me the Gibbs and Saunders had the same system).

- Completely disregard JCs performance during the first 8 games when he had a working line and a healthy CP.

- Officially putting Zorn on a short leash, since bringing Cutler here would give us the whole "when is Shanahan getting hired" talk all season.

Once again, I don't know why continuity for more than one or two seasons is undervalued. The only way we should bring someone like Cutler would be if the team decided to completely blow up the team, which that hasn't happened.
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