Seems like Cutler might be available.

GTripp0012 · 03-20-2009, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

which is easier - to invest everything you have and rework your entire offense to help make one mediocre quarterback look good.... or just go get yourself a good quarterback who can make everyone around him look better?

As far as Cutler wanting more money... he will, but not now. We wouldnt have to worry about extending him until next year if we brought him here.

That said, i dont really think we'd land Cutler, even if we were really going after him.

Okay, you've missed the point above. This isn't mediocre Jason Campbell vs. superior/all-mighty Jay Cutler. This is two players with the same exact skill set and career background, except one has a tendency to go downfield more often (higher YPA) and more efficiently, and is also far more prone to the big mistake (much higher INT rate) than the other.

And if you're asking which player fits better in Zorn's philosophy to micromanage the entire game, it's no question that Jason Campbell fits better.

But here's the really offensive thing: we have the undervalued player, and they have the overvalued player. So if there's anything serious about the trade talks, we've already committed an error. Well, the other offensive thing is that you think that Jay Cutler can be magically successful here if we don't rework the offensive line. Uh, no, no he cannot. Cutler is a young guy long on potential (like Campbell), but neither of them has ever posted a QB rating above 90. If you honestly think that coming here is going to put him over the hump into the elite "holier than Campbell" category, then you are very, very mistaken.

There's no question that Cutler will change the dynamic of our passing game. He just likely wouldn't make it any better.

GTripp0012 · 03-20-2009, 03:19 PM

None of this is because Jay Cutler isn't a good quarterback. He is. The Denver offense around him isn't exactly the most impressive passing offense we've ever seen.

But the Redskins are a team with a weak OL and no go-to receiver. The QB and Running game is pretty much all this team has.

BigHairedAristocrat · 03-20-2009, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redsk1

So we'd lose CC, JC, LL for Cutler, Scheffler, and a 3rd.

You just don't give up a talented young safety, a PB TE, and a solid QB for much less. It's all speculation anyway. I hope.

I wouldn't want this to happen, but i do happen to think the Jay Cutler is really good. Really good.

actually, the Browns dont have a thirds, so we'd lose all that for just Cutler and Shaffer... and theres no way the salary cap would allow that trade... which is why i stopped going to the bleacherreport... they made up crap and speculated to get hits on their website.

GTripp0012 · 03-20-2009, 03:24 PM

BHA,

Jason Campbell Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Jay Cutler Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

I'm not making this up when I say they look very, very similar statistically. You can see for yourself. You just have to stop looking at it from the ABC (anyone but Campbell) mentality to see that Cutler is not a significant upgrade, and that we need to fix the problems around the quarterback to get pro-bowl type production.

Mattyk · 03-20-2009, 03:30 PM

Any good QB needs a good cast to be successful. If you took Brady or Manning and put them on the Bengals, they would struggle. Hell just look at Carson Palmer and the nosedive he's taken there. As the team has fallen apart so has his game.

I don't know why some think you can just plug a new QB in the same situation and expect drastically different results.

BigHairedAristocrat · 03-20-2009, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Okay, you've missed the point above. This isn't mediocre Jason Campbell vs. superior/all-mighty Jay Cutler. This is two players with the same exact skill set and career background, except one has a tendency to go downfield more often (higher YPA) and more efficiently, and is also far more prone to the big mistake (much higher INT rate) than the other.

And if you're asking which player fits better in Zorn's philosophy to micromanage the entire game, it's no question that Jason Campbell fits better.

How can you claim (with a straight face) that Campbell fits Zorns offense better? I cant think of many worse mis-matches in football today. Campbells improvement (primarily fewer fumbles and INTs) is nothing more than a testament to Zorns teaching ability combined with Campbell being too scared to make a mistake. Cutler is by far a better QB for Zorns system and I have no doubt Cutler would cut his INTs in half and fumble less here. Cutler also had far fewer offensive weapons and a weaker offensive line and running back than Campbell has been blessed with.

Campbell has been given more tools to succeed than most young quarterbacks and he continues to fall short.

Quote:

But here's the really offensive thing: we have the undervalued player, and they have the overvalued player. So if there's anything serious about the trade talks, we've already committed an error. Well, the other offensive thing is that you think that Jay Cutler can be magically successful here if we don't rework the offensive line. Uh, no, no he cannot. Cutler is a young guy long on potential (like Campbell), but neither of them has ever posted a QB rating above 90. If you honestly think that coming here is going to put him over the hump into the elite "holier than Campbell" category, then you are very, very mistaken.

There's no question that Cutler will change the dynamic of our passing game. He just likely wouldn't make it any better.

I dont think Campbell is undervalued or Cutler is overvalued at all. Campbell is nothing more than a mediocre quarterback. He's average. Cutler has been extremely impressive on a team with a horrible defense, weak offensive line, weak running game, although with better receivers than what Campbell had in washington. If Campbell had been behind denvers line and with their defense last year, theres no question he'd have been cut or traded already. The Campbell/Zorn marriage is never going to be successful. So far, chosing Zorn to be OC and later HC while keeping Campbell, is by far the worst thing Cerrato and Snyder have done in recent memory.

BigHairedAristocrat · 03-20-2009, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Any good QB needs a good cast to be successful. If you took Brady or Manning and put them on the Bengals, they would struggle. Hell just look at Carson Palmer and the nosedive he's taken there. As the team has fallen apart so has his game.

I don't know why some think you can just plug a new QB in the same situation and expect drastically different results.

I do know if Campbell made decisions as fast and released the ball as fast as Cutler, we'd have won more games last year. Campbell holds on to the ball far too long. Our offensive line declined last year but it was still above average. Campbell simply takes too long to make decisions and holds on to the ball too long. He's had the same problem in every system he's ever been in. Its unreasonable to think he's going to change all of a sudden. I

ts going to take YEARS to rebuild our offensive line so that its dramatically better than the one we had last year. So what do we do? keep a slow quarterback 3-4 years and hope when our lines better he can finally be a franchise QB? Or simply find a guy know who can make quicker decisions to compensate for your line?

Mattyk · 03-20-2009, 03:40 PM

Well by year's end we'll know if JC is the real deal or not. Until then this debate is kinda silly considering the chance of Cutler coming here is pretty much zero.

GTripp0012 · 03-20-2009, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

How can you claim (with a straight face) that Campbell fits Zorns offense better? I cant think of many worse mis-matches in football today. Campbells improvement (primarily fewer fumbles and INTs) is nothing more than a testament to Zorns teaching ability combined with Campbell being too scared to make a mistake. Cutler is by far a better QB for Zorns system and I have no doubt Cutler would cut his INTs in half and fumble less here. Cutler also had far fewer offensive weapons and a weaker offensive line and running back than Campbell has been blessed with.

Campbell has been given more tools to succeed than most young quarterbacks and he continues to fall short.

I dont think Campbell is undervalued or Cutler is overvalued at all. Campbell is nothing more than a mediocre quarterback. He's average. Cutler has been extremely impressive on a team with a horrible defense, weak offensive line, weak running game, although with better receivers than what Campbell had in washington. If Campbell had been behind denvers line and with their defense last year, theres no question he'd have been cut or traded already. The Campbell/Zorn marriage is never going to be successful. So far, chosing Zorn to be OC and later HC while keeping Campbell, is by far the worst thing Cerrato and Snyder have done in recent memory.

I don't like the term "average" because too often, it is used to make an above average player seem worse than he really is. I don't know what you define as average, BHA, and it's very possible that Campbell is only average. But, then you see Cutler as better than average. But they are very similar players. So, you're putting one guy down (who happens to be the QB of your favorite team), to the point where you are clearly undervaluing his skill set in order to try to make a point.

Here's the thing: according to Football Outsiders, in 2008, the average performance from a quarterback was Dan Orlovsky/Trent Edwards

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Football analysis and NFL stats for the Moneyball era - Authors of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

In their stats, an average performance always seems to be weighed down by the very worst players of the year, so average always comes out between the 20-25th best player at the position. This is only one way to define average, but I do not reject their assumption that there are more above average QBs in this league that start than below average QBs.

As you can see, Cutler was clearly more effective in Denver's offense last year than Campbell was in the Redskins. I am not disputing this. I'm disputing two things:

1) Why you think that Zorn's conservative, fundamentals-heavy style will mesh better with Cutler's caution-to-the-wind playing style than Campbell's.

and

2) When you replace Brandon Marshall and Eddie Royal with Santana Moss and Antwaan Randle El, and replace the Denver OL with the Washington OL, how you don't account for a significant drop in Cutler's output.

Obviously, if we don't improve on offense, Cutler isn't going to be as good here as he was in Denver. If we DO improve, he probably would be. And obviously, Campbell will be much better as well.

Quote:

Campbell has been given more tools to succeed than most young quarterbacks and he continues to fall short.

What he's been given is a bunch of different terminology, and short, underwhelming receivers, and an aging OL. That's a lot of tools, but I would argue that save for an expansion team, that's pretty much as tough a situation as it gets for a young QB.

I kept a straight face though most of your points, but that one there was a little over the top, wouldn't you say?

GTripp0012 · 03-20-2009, 03:44 PM

And before you inevitably chide Campbell for the mythical "locking onto WRs" criticism:

Brandon Marshall led the NFL in targets last year.

Mattyk · 03-20-2009, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I don't like the term "average" because too often, it is used to make an above average player seem worse than he really is. I don't know what you define as average, BHA, and it's very possible that Campbell is only average. But, then you see Cutler as better than average. But they are very similar players. So, you're putting one guy down (who happens to be the QB of your favorite team), to the point where you are clearly undervaluing his skill set in order to try to make a point.

Here's the thing: according to Football Outsiders, in 2008, the average performance from a quarterback was Dan Orlovsky/Trent Edwards

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Football analysis and NFL stats for the Moneyball era - Authors of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

In their stats, an average performance always seems to be weighed down by the very worst players of the year, so average always comes out between the 20-25th best player at the position. This is only one way to define average, but I do not reject their assumption that there are more above average QBs in this league that start than below average QBs.

As you can see, Cutler was clearly more effective in Denver's offense last year than Campbell was in the Redskins. I am not disputing this. I'm disputing two things:

1) Why you think that Zorn's conservative style will mesh better with Cutler's caution-to-the-wind playing style than Campbell's.

and

2) When you replace Brandon Marshall and Eddie Royal with Santana Moss and Antwaan Randle El, and replace the Denver OL with the Washington OL, how you don't account for a significant drop in Cutler's output.

Obviously, if we don't improve on offense, Cutler isn't going to be as good here as he was in Denver. If we DO improve, he probably would be. And obviously, Campbell will be much better as well.

What he's been given is a bunch of different terminology, and short, underwhelming receivers, and an aging OL. That's a lot of tools, but I would argue that save for an expansion team, that's pretty much as tough a situation as it gets for a young QB.

It's the old grass is always greener philosophy.

I know a guy who is a Broncos fan and he thinks Cutler is a whiny little punk and he could really care less if they lose him.

It all depends on your perspective. Fans always undervalue their own players while they overvalue other team's players.

JoeRedskin · 03-20-2009, 03:48 PM

Dear God, is this thread still going???

Ruhskins · 03-20-2009, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

I do know if Campbell made decisions as fast and released the ball as fast as Cutler, we'd have won more games last year. Campbell holds on to the ball far too long. Our offensive line declined last year but it was still above average. Campbell simply takes too long to make decisions and holds on to the ball too long. He's had the same problem in every system he's ever been in. Its unreasonable to think he's going to change all of a sudden. Its going to take YEARS to rebuild our offensive line so that its dramatically better than the one we had last year. So what do we do? keep a slow quarterback 3-4 years and hope when our lines better he can finally be a franchise QB? Or simply find a guy know who can make quicker decisions to compensate for your line?

It's also unreasonable to think that

a.) Campbell is the only problem the team has (which ppl arguing for Cutler make it look he is).

b.) Trading for Campbell and bringing Cutler is not going to affect the locker room.

c.) Cutler is going to make an immediate difference when he needs to learn the system, is not accustomed to our WRs, and needs to develop a rapport with Zorn (things that Campbell is expected to accomplish since...wait for it...he's in the SAME offense for the 2nd year in a row!).

Mattyk · 03-20-2009, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Dear God, is this thread still going???

Until the Cutler situation is cleared up I see no end to the mindless speculation and wacky trade scenarios.

GTripp0012 · 03-20-2009, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Well by year's end we'll know if JC is the real deal or not. Until then this debate is kinda silly considering the chance of Cutler coming here is pretty much zero.

Do you really think if Campbell improves to the point where he garners pro-bowl votes next year, that the haters are suddenly going to be nowhere to be found?

*We* already know what we have in Campbell. *They* are still hating anyway. And for Jay Cutler, none-the-less.

03-20-2009, 03:19 PM	#287
GTripp0012 Living Legend Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Age: 25 Posts: 15,143	Re: Seems like Cutler might be available. None of this is because Jay Cutler isn't a good quarterback. He is. The Denver offense around him isn't exactly the most impressive passing offense we've ever seen. But the Redskins are a team with a weak OL and no go-to receiver. The QB and Running game is pretty much all this team has. __________________ Shanahan: “The bad thing is he's [Sav Rocca] probably our best offensive weapon and that’s not good.”

03-20-2009, 03:24 PM	#289
GTripp0012 Living Legend Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Age: 25 Posts: 15,143	Re: Seems like Cutler might be available. BHA, Jason Campbell Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com Jay Cutler Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com I'm not making this up when I say they look very, very similar statistically. You can see for yourself. You just have to stop looking at it from the ABC (anyone but Campbell) mentality to see that Cutler is not a significant upgrade, and that we need to fix the problems around the quarterback to get pro-bowl type production. __________________ Shanahan: “The bad thing is he's [Sav Rocca] probably our best offensive weapon and that’s not good.”

03-20-2009, 03:30 PM	#290
Mattyk ‎\m/ Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 40 Posts: 72,736	Re: Seems like Cutler might be available. Any good QB needs a good cast to be successful. If you took Brady or Manning and put them on the Bengals, they would struggle. Hell just look at Carson Palmer and the nosedive he's taken there. As the team has fallen apart so has his game. I don't know why some think you can just plug a new QB in the same situation and expect drastically different results. __________________ Support The Warpath! \| Warpath Shop

03-20-2009, 03:40 PM	#293
Mattyk ‎\m/ Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 40 Posts: 72,736	Re: Seems like Cutler might be available. Well by year's end we'll know if JC is the real deal or not. Until then this debate is kinda silly considering the chance of Cutler coming here is pretty much zero. __________________ Support The Warpath! \| Warpath Shop

03-20-2009, 03:44 PM	#295
GTripp0012 Living Legend Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Age: 25 Posts: 15,143	Re: Seems like Cutler might be available. And before you inevitably chide Campbell for the mythical "locking onto WRs" criticism: Brandon Marshall led the NFL in targets last year. __________________ Shanahan: “The bad thing is he's [Sav Rocca] probably our best offensive weapon and that’s not good.”

03-20-2009, 03:48 PM	#297
JoeRedskin Contains football related knowledge Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Second Star On The Right Age: 50 Posts: 7,166	Re: Seems like Cutler might be available. Dear God, is this thread still going??? __________________ My Little Pony: Friendship is magic? or ... a repressive matriarchal society where individuals' roles are defined by their immutable physical characteristics and governance is reserved for those who demonstrate the genetic purity of the pony master race?

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Seems like Cutler might be available.

Redskins Locker Room