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Debunking top 3 myths about the '09 Redskins

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Old 07-25-2009, 07:52 AM   #16
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Re: Debunking top 3 myths about the '09 Redskins

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Originally Posted by GMScud View Post
I don't think you're following. Paintrain pointed out that these numbers "are the top 6 returning pass catchers (WR, TE, RB) for every team in the NFC East."

Great points, Paintrain. Well done.
Okay, I really hate to piss in everybody's cornflakes this morning, but if our passing game ranks 23rd in the league (not to mention near the very bottom in scoring) despite the fact that our starters are catching more passes, how effective are our starters really?

I know it's been eight long months since the end of the '08 season, and perhaps I'm suffering from amnesia, but I seem to remember that our main problem was scoring, particularly through the air.

I'm sure someone will tell me how I'm wrong ...
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Old 07-25-2009, 08:37 AM   #17
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Re: Debunking top 3 myths about the '09 Redskins

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Originally Posted by Beemnseven View Post
Okay, I really hate to piss in everybody's cornflakes this morning, but if our passing game ranks 23rd in the league (not to mention near the very bottom in scoring) despite the fact that our starters are catching more passes, how effective are our starters really?

I know it's been eight long months since the end of the '08 season, and perhaps I'm suffering from amnesia, but I seem to remember that our main problem was scoring, particularly through the air.

I'm sure someone will tell me how I'm wrong ...
You're not wrong. We need to increase our scoring in general and our scoring in the redzone in particular. With the top 6 returning pass catchers in the NFC East and the second year in this offense, it gives us hope we can do just that.
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Old 07-25-2009, 08:58 AM   #18
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Re: Debunking top 3 myths about the '09 Redskins

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Okay, I really hate to piss in everybody's cornflakes this morning, but if our passing game ranks 23rd in the league (not to mention near the very bottom in scoring) despite the fact that our starters are catching more passes, how effective are our starters really?

I know it's been eight long months since the end of the '08 season, and perhaps I'm suffering from amnesia, but I seem to remember that our main problem was scoring, particularly through the air.

I'm sure someone will tell me how I'm wrong ...
Our main problem last year was definitely scoring, especially through the air and in the red zone. My point with the returning pass catchers was basically demonstrating continuity. The Cowboys lost their #1 WR. The Giants lost their #1 and #2A WR. The Eagles lost their starting TE (although Celek was as much of a contributor as Smith) and their #3 WR. We're bringing back everyone but our #5 WR in Thrash.

Looking at statistical rankings from last year and projecting that to this year is meaningless because each team (other than the Redskins) in the division has to replace approximately 70 receptions and 900 yards in their passing attack. Every team in the division has question marks at the receiver position and while the Cowboys have R. Williams, the Eagles and Giants are relying upon big contributions from rookie WR and we all know how perilous that can be!

If we get the anticipated improvement of JC along with the development of the 2nd year players then we should have the most dynamic passing game in the division.
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Old 07-25-2009, 09:09 AM   #19
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Re: Debunking top 3 myths about the '09 Redskins

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Our main problem last year was definitely scoring, especially through the air and in the red zone. My point with the returning pass catchers was basically demonstrating continuity. The Cowboys lost their #1 WR. The Giants lost their #1 and #2A WR. The Eagles lost their starting TE (although Celek was as much of a contributor as Smith) and their #3 WR. We're bringing back everyone but our #5 WR in Thrash.

Looking at statistical rankings from last year and projecting that to this year is meaningless because each team (other than the Redskins) in the division has to replace approximately 70 receptions and 900 yards in their passing attack. Every team in the division has question marks at the receiver position and while the Cowboys have R. Williams, the Eagles and Giants are relying upon big contributions from rookie WR and we all know how perilous that can be!

If we get the anticipated improvement of JC along with the development of the 2nd year players then we should have the most dynamic passing game in the division.
Alright, fair enough. I'm especially skeptical about the Cowboys; Roy Williams still has much to prove. And while the Giants lost Burress and Toomer, they've done a good job at drafting replacements, plus they have a dynamic running game with a great O-line. We'll see what happens with them... As for Philly, they seem to do fine and they NEVER seem to have good receivers.

In a way, I hope we don't have continuity in that we don't want to see the same lack of production with our passing offense. Hopefully, Campbell is the missing cog in the wheel, and things will turn around.

We'll get a taste of where things are in just 20 days with the first preseason game.
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Old 07-25-2009, 09:10 AM   #20
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Re: Debunking top 3 myths about the '09 Redskins

Only the wins and losses can't be debated. Sports writers and the fans of our rivals can say whatever they want to say about us but they can't erase the whuppins we put on their favorite teams' asses.

So, I wouldn't care if others had the false perception that our OL averages 86 years old and we have a one-legged man starting at Right Tackle as long as we win.
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Old 07-25-2009, 09:17 AM   #21
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Re: Debunking top 3 myths about the '09 Redskins

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yeah, you're also forgetting that OL wise, the eagles, giants and cowboys are way, way better off and dmac is just more established. Jackson wasn't meant to have a huge impact as that wr corps was nothing to speak off and he had a decent year. With two targets, mcnabb will light it up. And, say what you want but the giants have a nice young wr corps in hixon, moss, boss etc. While they won't get the production of burruss, they won't need to with the running game they have led by the tremendous o-line up in ny. Finally, dallas may have lost t.o. and that will affect the passing yardage of course, but their o-line is also solid and they have a scary threesome of backs in barber, jones, and choice. Passing wise, philly will be better, ny and dallas will drop but not significantly, but the rest of the offense is more than good enough to make up for it.
If I was a Giants fan, I'd be pretty concerned about the passing game. Not only did they lose Plaxico but they also lost Burress (48 rec, 580 yds, 4 TD) and Derrick Ward (41 rec, 384 yds), not to mention Ward's running yards (1,025). Moss has shown nothing but being injury prone for his 3 years and Manningham did zero last year.

I think for Dallas to be successful on offense this year, they need to run the ball 65% of the time or more. Romo is a good QB but Williams is no T.O. and the rest of their group is pretty weak.
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Old 07-25-2009, 10:08 AM   #22
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Re: Debunking top 3 myths about the '09 Redskins

Very nice thread.
Point 1 - the OLine has to develop a sense of team. Every time I read that Samuels Dockery Williams and Heyer are working out in Arizona(I believe together) I get excited. My firm belief is that good line play is 70% talent (maybe less) and 30%(maybe more) trusting the guy beside you. This is why I think the Eagles line, though star filled, will be less successful. I don't think that their line is as integrated as ours, its much more of a patchwork line. As for the Giants, they have been seriously lucky to have not had any injuries to their line over the last 3 years, I think that comes to an end this season. Dallas has a slightly old line, but I think they play well together, and will probably be a key if Romo does have success.

Point 2: very interesting receiving stats. Not sure any media outlet would ever give that point of view. Our division is definitely run first, but DT working with JC (successfully unlike reports of Romo RW working and not clicking) may be the biggest single boon for our offense this year. It will be an interesting sideshow watching how all the NFCE receiving corps stack up through the year.

3rd - The AH signing represents the same old way of doing business but with more clarity. When DS came in he threw money at names, not potential. Now he is still throwing money around, but also evaluating the future potential of the player.
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Old 07-25-2009, 10:28 AM   #23
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Re: Debunking top 3 myths about the '09 Redskins

Excellent post, Paintrain.
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Old 07-25-2009, 10:41 AM   #24
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Re: Debunking top 3 myths about the '09 Redskins

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1. The Redskins have the oldest, most injury prone OL in the division.
Actually the Cowboys have the oldest offensive line with no starter under 30 years old and an average age of 30.8. The Eagles have a younger offensive line but have 2 starters coming off of season ending injuries (Andrews-back and Andrews-torn ACL) and another addition that gave up 11.5 sacks (Peters). Samuels is the only Redskins OL that didn't finish the season last year and their average age is 29.8 years with 2 starters under 30.

2. The Redskins have the least productive returning receiving corp in the division.
If you read anything in any preseason magazine or on any website or listened to any sports radio you'd think we had Santana Moss and a bunch of camp bodies catching the ball. In reality, we have the most productive receiving group in the division. Here are the top 6 returning pass catchers (WR, TE, RB) for every team in the NFC East:
Eagles
214 receptions, 2839 yards, 15 TD

Giants
159 receptions, 1795 yards, 12 TD

Cowboys
232 receptions, 2585 yards, 15 TD

Redskins
280 receptions, 3024 yards, 11 TD

While we're behind on the TD passes, it's pretty clear that we have the most productive receiving group. By the way, the Redskins numbers don't include Kelly or Davis, both of whom are expected to contribute much more to the passing game.

3. The Haynesworth signing represents the 'same old Redskins' way of building a team and overall organizational instability. Of approximately 23 player additions to the roster over the past 3 years, 18 were either drafted or originally acquired by the Redskins (this includes Smoot and Dockery who returned in FA). The team is also the only one in the division who is returning it's entire coaching staff from last season and the only one who hasn't replaced their defensive coordinator from the start of last season.

I just wanted to throw some positive vibes and reality out there on the brink of training camp.
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Old 07-25-2009, 11:45 AM   #25
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Re: Debunking top 3 myths about the '09 Redskins

We don't like all this "reality" you're bringing here. Please find some other place for your reason and pragmatism.
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Old 07-25-2009, 11:57 AM   #26
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Re: Debunking top 3 myths about the '09 Redskins

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Originally Posted by Paintrain View Post
Our main problem last year was definitely scoring, especially through the air and in the red zone. My point with the returning pass catchers was basically demonstrating continuity. The Cowboys lost their #1 WR. The Giants lost their #1 and #2A WR. The Eagles lost their starting TE (although Celek was as much of a contributor as Smith) and their #3 WR. We're bringing back everyone but our #5 WR in Thrash.

Looking at statistical rankings from last year and projecting that to this year is meaningless because each team (other than the Redskins) in the division has to replace approximately 70 receptions and 900 yards in their passing attack. Every team in the division has question marks at the receiver position and while the Cowboys have R. Williams, the Eagles and Giants are relying upon big contributions from rookie WR and we all know how perilous that can be!

If we get the anticipated improvement of JC along with the development of the 2nd year players then we should have the most dynamic passing game in the division.
We make a big deal out of continuity, because we don't have it, but other teams add and lose players on offense each and every year and keep humming along. TO dropped more passes than anyone and was more of a disruption to the offense than anything else. Dallas will still have a potent passing attack, the Eagles move the ball up and down the field regardless of whose on the field (Westbrook misses a ton of time each year and they still manage to score points) and the Giants will still run the ball down everyone's throats and Eli will be just good enough to keep defenses honest. The Skins just need to be better, and I think they will. I just don't think the other teams will be dramatically worse.
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Old 07-25-2009, 12:17 PM   #27
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Re: Debunking top 3 myths about the '09 Redskins

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If I was a Giants fan, I'd be pretty concerned about the passing game. Not only did they lose Plaxico but they also lost Burress (48 rec, 580 yds, 4 TD) and Derrick Ward (41 rec, 384 yds), not to mention Ward's running yards (1,025). Moss has shown nothing but being injury prone for his 3 years and Manningham did zero last year.

I think for Dallas to be successful on offense this year, they need to run the ball 65% of the time or more. Romo is a good QB but Williams is no T.O. and the rest of their group is pretty weak.
If I were a Giants fan I'd be concerned somewhat about the running game as well. Plax kept folks from putting 8 in the box to stop the run; right now, the Giants lack a comparable threat. I think the Giants will have more trouble running this year because they will face more 8-man fronts.

Added to this, it is not clear that Ware or another back will capably replace Ward in the running game.

I think the Giants will score fewer ppg this year.
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Old 07-25-2009, 12:34 PM   #28
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Re: Debunking top 3 myths about the '09 Redskins

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Alright, fair enough. I'm especially skeptical about the Cowboys; Roy Williams still has much to prove. And while the Giants lost Burress and Toomer, they've done a good job at drafting replacements, plus they have a dynamic running game with a great O-line. We'll see what happens with them... As for Philly, they seem to do fine and they NEVER seem to have good receivers.

In a way, I hope we don't have continuity in that we don't want to see the same lack of production with our passing offense. Hopefully, Campbell is the missing cog in the wheel, and things will turn around.

We'll get a taste of where things are in just 20 days with the first preseason game.
Your skepticism of our offense is justified IMO bro but don't ignore the positives we have going and the challenges facing our rivals. JC needs better protection and another big playmaker for a target. I'm still nervous about our line but as others have said it's great to hear they're working out together. I tend to think the group knows it was an embarrassment last year, that it failed JC and Buges and the fans. I think Chris and Dock and Randy are probably dead-set on reestablishing the line as an offensive strength and instilling this in the younger guys. As to the new playmaker Devin should be leaps and bounds ahead of where he was last year. We don't hear about this guy missing/skipping work and living stupid. We hear he's taking it very serious, working his ass off and hoping to be a superstar.

I agree the Eagles will be very good because they're always competitive and Dono does have more weapons at his disposal than the previous few years. However I just don't see how anyone can be intimidated by Dallas and NY. Our defense has improved more than either offense...I think it's simple as that. Dallas has big question marks at WR, as does NY. But the bonus is NY also has questions at RB. While Ward was the elder of the group he was also the most consistent. Now it's mostly on Jacobs...a guy almost guaranteed to miss time every year and get nicked up. Do we really think the sub 200 lb Bradshaw can carry maintain the running game? Psshht...please. NY will not be able to pound the ball consistently this year. Count on it. And defensively we hear Boley won't be available for training camp (suspended for first game)...I don't think the Giants off-season or their '09 prospects are anything impressive.

HTTR!!!
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Old 07-25-2009, 12:44 PM   #29
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Re: Debunking top 3 myths about the '09 Redskins

I'm on the Paintrain also.

I just don't see the other teams having as good a yr as they have in the past even if they have the better O-line. Baring injuries I think we have the better D-line which will reak havoc with them. No one can tell me that Dallas will be better this yr with out T.O. As much of a pain in the butt he can be he's still one of the best WR's. Media outlets are already talking about how Romo and Williams are having a hard time connecting. Last yr teams had to account for both talented WR's now they only have to account for one. CB Hall and Rogers will keep him in check.

In Eli's first few yrs he had all day to throw and no one to throw to. This is how I see their season again this yr. Yes they have Moss but he's not as good as his brother. Other then that they have no decent WR's to worry about. Most of the plays will be to the RB's and TE's. Unless the new D coordinator knows the system inside and out I see them changing systems which will create some small problems for them.

The Eagles are our only real threat as I see it. What they lack is WR's. Yes they have Jackson who will know the offense better and that's it. They will be in the same position we were in last yr except we also had ARE. Unless their new drafted WR turns out to be another CJ, T.O., Fitzgerald, or Bolden then it will take a yr just like it has Kelly and Thomas for us. I'm not saying he won't just saying he has a major leap to make and it rarely happens as we found out. If he turns out to be like those others then we will have some problems, but McNabb will have to get the ball out faster with our pash rushers. Secondly they have no secondary on defense. If Kelly and Thomas can step up I see us picking them apart.
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Old 07-25-2009, 12:48 PM   #30
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Re: Debunking top 3 myths about the '09 Redskins

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Your skepticism of our offense is justified IMO bro but don't ignore the positives we have going and the challenges facing our rivals. JC needs better protection and another big playmaker for a target. I'm still nervous about our line but as others have said it's great to hear they're working out together. I tend to think the group knows it was an embarrassment last year, that it failed JC and Buges and the fans. I think Chris and Dock and Randy are probably dead-set on reestablishing the line as an offensive strength and instilling this in the younger guys. As to the new playmaker Devin should be leaps and bounds ahead of where he was last year. We don't hear about this guy missing/skipping work and living stupid. We hear he's taking it very serious, working his ass off and hoping to be a superstar.

I agree the Eagles will be very good because they're always competitive and Dono does have more weapons at his disposal than the previous few years. However I just don't see how anyone can be intimidated by Dallas and NY. Our defense has improved more than either offense...I think it's simple as that. Dallas has big question marks at WR, as does NY. But the bonus is NY also has questions at RB. While Ward was the elder of the group he was also the most consistent. Now it's mostly on Jacobs...a guy almost guaranteed to miss time every year and get nicked up. Do we really think the sub 200 lb Bradshaw can carry maintain the running game? Psshht...please. NY will not be able to pound the ball consistently this year. Count on it. And defensively we hear Boley won't be available for training camp (suspended for first game)...I don't think the Giants off-season or their '09 prospects are anything impressive.

HTTR!!!
The Skins don't need to be all-world on offense to be one of the elite teams in the NFL this year. They just need to be 5-8 points better per game. It boils down to 2 things - can Zorn coach and can Campbell play. If the answer to both is yes, then look-out!

We have a pro-bowl receiver, pro-bowl tight-end, pro-bowl running back, pro-bowl full-back and pro-bowl RT. Would it be nice to have a Larry Fitzgerald-like WR as well? Of course, but most teams get by with a lot less. We have plenty of talent to be a 20 point per game team, which would make the Skins a force to be reckoned with, assuming the defense is elite and we can keep injuries to a minimum. It's all on Zorn and Campbell.

The Giants had so many good RBs a couple of years ago that they waived a guy named Ryan Grant (their 5th best RB). They'll plug someone in and have just as potent a 3-headed monster that they had last year. Maybe they aren't as good without Plax, but they'll still score enough to be a contender. Plax left the Steelers and they won the Super Bowl the next year, so let's not pretend he's the Messiah.

TO wanted every pass thrown to him, which gave the rest of the offense fits. Despite his late season meltdowns, Romo is legit, Whitten is still there and Roy Williams is plenty capable. He put up some monster numbers in Detroit, before falling off the radar. I think every team will be in the hunt again this year, but if Zorn and Campbell are the real deal, the Skins could run away with the NFC East. The defense could be one of the best units the Skins have ever had.
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