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Preseason Game 1 Quick Hitters: First of all, calm the hell down

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Old 08-15-2009, 09:33 AM   #61
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Re: Preseason Game 1 Quick Hitters: First of all, calm the hell down

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Don't know if you caught this, but Rabach got reamed out by a coach on that particular play -- it was the one where Rinehart, Rabach, and Dockery all stood there without anyone to block while a blitz came from the left side which was picked up by Betts, but whiffed on by Cooley.

Makes you wonder if it was a blown blocking call by Rabach...
Didn't see that. Can't tell on film who is responsible, only that we were in a complete blocking mismatch.
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Old 08-16-2009, 05:21 PM   #62
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Re: Preseason Game 1 Quick Hitters: First of all, calm the hell down

A shutout stinks no matter what. It's important for the offensive unit to become "comfortable" in the redzone and endzone. But what I kept thinking when we held the ball is R. Wynn's comments (fairly recent) about how the NY defense had/has no respect for our offense. I think that will be the case for every decent defense we face unless/until Zorn gets AGGRESSIVE AND DYNAMIC in his playcalling. We have to start moving the ball downfield in big chunks or the offense will just sputter all year long. Time to take some risks IMHO. JC has a monster arm and his accuracy on the long ball seems no worse than the medium range stuff...so I'd really like to see the o-line step up the pass protection and then Zorn call a shitload of bombs as soon as the regular season starts. I guarantee you not a single defensive coordinator in the league will expect it, especially if we stay aggressive for multiple series.

I think defensive depth, beyond DL, is of big concern. Our LB unit is shallow on talent and a bit weak. I really wonder if a true stud LB would have paid higher dividends than adding another pass rusher (Orakpo) after the phat Al acquisition. Hopefully Rocky has a breakout season and we don't have injuries to that group or the defense will suffer. The secondary is sort of a mystery. We have talent back there...I think they just need to gel. And it's time for Laron to breakout.
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Old 08-16-2009, 07:32 PM   #63
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Re: Preseason Game 1 Quick Hitters: First of all, calm the hell down

was just on TV for the lions game winning FG in their game

sitting there unemotionally sipping on a beer lol
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Old 08-16-2009, 07:47 PM   #64
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Re: Preseason Game 1 Quick Hitters: First of all, calm the hell down

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A shutout stinks no matter what. It's important for the offensive unit to become "comfortable" in the redzone and endzone. But what I kept thinking when we held the ball is R. Wynn's comments (fairly recent) about how the NY defense had/has no respect for our offense. I think that will be the case for every decent defense we face unless/until Zorn gets AGGRESSIVE AND DYNAMIC in his playcalling. We have to start moving the ball downfield in big chunks or the offense will just sputter all year long. Time to take some risks IMHO. JC has a monster arm and his accuracy on the long ball seems no worse than the medium range stuff...so I'd really like to see the o-line step up the pass protection and then Zorn call a shitload of bombs as soon as the regular season starts. I guarantee you not a single defensive coordinator in the league will expect it, especially if we stay aggressive for multiple series.

I think defensive depth, beyond DL, is of big concern. Our LB unit is shallow on talent and a bit weak. I really wonder if a true stud LB would have paid higher dividends than adding another pass rusher (Orakpo) after the phat Al acquisition. Hopefully Rocky has a breakout season and we don't have injuries to that group or the defense will suffer. The secondary is sort of a mystery. We have talent back there...I think they just need to gel. And it's time for Laron to breakout.
With respect to the fact that the three step passing game in early downs is an unadjustable staple of the west coast offense, and it's the third down pass protection schemes that we;ve struggled with the most, in what game situation should we be attacking the defense down the field?

There's 1st and 10, which Zorn already does, and has hurt the offense.

There's 2nd and 10, but any sort of failure more or less ends our drive with an 80% probability.

There's 3rd and short, which makes some sense, but decreases the chances we get a first down.

What would you suggest is the optimal situation to step outside what we do well and attack with route combinations down the field? I'm not going to argue that we shouldn't ever go down the field, but if the penalty for doing so unsuccessfully is a likely punt, how often should we go downfield?

I should add that this year, with Hunter Smith in town, the Redskins probably shouldn't fear punting in the same way they did last year. So perhaps the answer is more frequently, but how much more frequently?
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Old 08-16-2009, 08:05 PM   #65
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Re: Preseason Game 1 Quick Hitters: First of all, calm the hell down

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A shutout stinks no matter what. It's important for the offensive unit to become "comfortable" in the redzone and endzone. But what I kept thinking when we held the ball is R. Wynn's comments (fairly recent) about how the NY defense had/has no respect for our offense. I think that will be the case for every decent defense we face unless/until Zorn gets AGGRESSIVE AND DYNAMIC in his playcalling. We have to start moving the ball downfield in big chunks or the offense will just sputter all year long. Time to take some risks IMHO. JC has a monster arm and his accuracy on the long ball seems no worse than the medium range stuff...so I'd really like to see the o-line step up the pass protection and then Zorn call a shitload of bombs as soon as the regular season starts. I guarantee you not a single defensive coordinator in the league will expect it, especially if we stay aggressive for multiple series.

I think defensive depth, beyond DL, is of big concern. Our LB unit is shallow on talent and a bit weak. I really wonder if a true stud LB would have paid higher dividends than adding another pass rusher (Orakpo) after the phat Al acquisition. Hopefully Rocky has a breakout season and we don't have injuries to that group or the defense will suffer. The secondary is sort of a mystery. We have talent back there...I think they just need to gel. And it's time for Laron to breakout.
It's nice to hear from you again, Goat. You are correct about Landry. We need more turnovers and it is high time that we see him coming up with more interceptions.
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Old 08-16-2009, 10:30 PM   #66
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Re: Preseason Game 1 Quick Hitters: First of all, calm the hell down

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With respect to the fact that the three step passing game in early downs is an unadjustable staple of the west coast offense, and it's the third down pass protection schemes that we;ve struggled with the most, in what game situation should we be attacking the defense down the field?

There's 1st and 10, which Zorn already does, and has hurt the offense.

There's 2nd and 10, but any sort of failure more or less ends our drive with an 80% probability.

There's 3rd and short, which makes some sense, but decreases the chances we get a first down.

What would you suggest is the optimal situation to step outside what we do well and attack with route combinations down the field? I'm not going to argue that we shouldn't ever go down the field, but if the penalty for doing so unsuccessfully is a likely punt, how often should we go downfield?

I should add that this year, with Hunter Smith in town, the Redskins probably shouldn't fear punting in the same way they did last year. So perhaps the answer is more frequently, but how much more frequently?
GT not clear on your meaning of hurt the offense? Do you mean that Zorn tries to call bombs on 1st down w/o seeing success so we're stuck w/ 2nd and 10? Ok fair enough but I then ask why are we not seeing success. Last year the answer was something like "pass-protection was often too little to sustain the deep ball and our long range 'targets' are small guys who struggle to grab the ball out of the air under coverage." Obviously you get some inaccurate passes from JC that lowers the success rate a bit further, but the quality of protection and lack of long range threats are the bigger deal still. So I say 1) fix the pass protection 2) make the WR corp better. The whole point is to put the defense on the defensive...force them to cover the whole field rather than throw 8 guys in the box and basically allow them to forget about everything 25 yards behind the LOS. This is more intuition on my part than anything but it seems probable we fail to see large gains by our backs because the whole defense is able to concentrate on the backfield first and then 25 or so yards behind the LOS.

...ok so of the examples you gave (1,2, and 3) i choose number 4: a long bomb on 2nd and short. I don't remember seeing that scenario play out last year. Predictability is basically what I'm getting at bro...we've been far too predictable.
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Old 08-16-2009, 10:43 PM   #67
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Re: Preseason Game 1 Quick Hitters: First of all, calm the hell down

I think 2nd and short, at times, would be an excellent time to go long. An OC calls a lot of plays to SETUP plays for a later time. Not all setup plays are successful as far as yardage, but they help to setup plays for later. We need to go long sometimes whether it works or not to keep the defense honest. It's a lot harder to cover 60 yards, than say, 20. Whether the play itself is successful or not, and sometimes it is, it is a tactic that helps you keep the defense guessing.
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Old 08-17-2009, 02:15 AM   #68
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Re: Preseason Game 1 Quick Hitters: First of all, calm the hell down

Play action is where most of the aggressive calls and big plays will probably be coming from; you obviously need pass pro for play action.
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Old 08-17-2009, 07:25 AM   #69
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Re: Preseason Game 1 Quick Hitters: First of all, calm the hell down

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GT not clear on your meaning of hurt the offense? Do you mean that Zorn tries to call bombs on 1st down w/o seeing success so we're stuck w/ 2nd and 10? Ok fair enough but I then ask why are we not seeing success. Last year the answer was something like "pass-protection was often too little to sustain the deep ball and our long range 'targets' are small guys who struggle to grab the ball out of the air under coverage." Obviously you get some inaccurate passes from JC that lowers the success rate a bit further, but the quality of protection and lack of long range threats are the bigger deal still. So I say 1) fix the pass protection 2) make the WR corp better. The whole point is to put the defense on the defensive...force them to cover the whole field rather than throw 8 guys in the box and basically allow them to forget about everything 25 yards behind the LOS. This is more intuition on my part than anything but it seems probable we fail to see large gains by our backs because the whole defense is able to concentrate on the backfield first and then 25 or so yards behind the LOS.

...ok so of the examples you gave (1,2, and 3) i choose number 4: a long bomb on 2nd and short. I don't remember seeing that scenario play out last year. Predictability is basically what I'm getting at bro...we've been far too predictable.
The pass pro wasn't bad on first and second down for the majority of last season. It was bad on third down all year. When we were in those third and mediums that good offenses usually convert, I remember breaking down a lot of pass protections, and charting missed blocks to Yoder, Betts, Jansen, Thomas, etc., and suggesting that we have a problem in obvious passing downs, but that it should correct itself. Problem was, before it corrected itself, we lost the well-established ability to run the ball and ended up with a useless offense.

The Redskins completed two bombs and drew one penalty on 24 attempts last year. That's obviously an ineffective use of plays. I think Campbell is a little bit overrated as a deep ball thrower. He's got a good, maybe a little bit better than good deep ball. It's not the automatic weapon some think it is. The other thing is, who is he going to throw it to? Moss can get behind corners and safeties, but most teams in the league have defensive ability to take him away without compromising more than just that cliche'd eight in the box. Randle El doesn't have any sort of deep ability, so you're left hoping that either Thomas or Kelly will flash some deep ability.

The thing that's the big issue right now is converting the third downs we should, while being able to run the ball at a reasonable rate. To me, I think for a west coast team, in every sense of the word, trying to force the ball down the field actually detracts from our actual offensive problems, which is the fundamental pass protection (not necessarily OL) issues on downs the Redskins need to sustain drives, and the cast decline of the running game.

But you touched on the ultimate idea: if we only launch 24 bombs all of this upcoming season, but we complete them at a rate twice as good as last year: 7-8 completions + penalties drawn, you combine that with an improved offensive efficiency and Campbell has an outside shot at a 4,000 yard, 25 TD season.

But of the offensive improvements were likely to make this year, improved third down passing and moderately successful running behind a rebuild pass protection unit are likely. Improved deep ball efficiency is probably not happening in this season. Maybe I'm wrong and we underperformed our deep ball abilities last year, but I just don't think we have the ability to go deep four-five times a game with 40-50% success.
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Old 08-17-2009, 07:27 AM   #70
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Re: Preseason Game 1 Quick Hitters: First of all, calm the hell down

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I think 2nd and short, at times, would be an excellent time to go long. An OC calls a lot of plays to SETUP plays for a later time. Not all setup plays are successful as far as yardage, but they help to setup plays for later. We need to go long sometimes whether it works or not to keep the defense honest. It's a lot harder to cover 60 yards, than say, 20. Whether the play itself is successful or not, and sometimes it is, it is a tactic that helps you keep the defense guessing.
2nd and short is a given. Pretty much any coach will take a deep shot on second and short. I didn't list it as an option because it's a relatively rare down and distance. But I completely agree with the thought.
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Old 08-17-2009, 11:21 AM   #71
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Re: Preseason Game 1 Quick Hitters: First of all, calm the hell down

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Taking things in perspective...at least JC didn't throw 3 picks:

Denver Broncos vs. San Francisco 49ers - Recap - August 14, 2009 - ESPN

Boy, the Broncos fans must be thrilled with the McDaniels era...oh and Knowshown has a knee sprain.
I watched the replay of that game and boy was Orton awful. For a guy who's been the NFL as long as he has you'd think he would learn not to stare down his WR's. He was AWFUL. Pat Bowlen has got to be 2nd guessing himself hiring McDaniels. The Denver fans are pretty intense and I can't even imagine what sports radio and blogs are saying. It's going to be a LONG year for Denver.
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Old 08-17-2009, 11:28 AM   #72
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Re: Preseason Game 1 Quick Hitters: First of all, calm the hell down

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The pass pro wasn't bad on first and second down for the majority of last season. It was bad on third down all year. When we were in those third and mediums that good offenses usually convert, I remember breaking down a lot of pass protections, and charting missed blocks to Yoder, Betts, Jansen, Thomas, etc., and suggesting that we have a problem in obvious passing downs, but that it should correct itself. Problem was, before it corrected itself, we lost the well-established ability to run the ball and ended up with a useless offense.

The Redskins completed two bombs and drew one penalty on 24 attempts last year. That's obviously an ineffective use of plays. I think Campbell is a little bit overrated as a deep ball thrower. He's got a good, maybe a little bit better than good deep ball. It's not the automatic weapon some think it is. The other thing is, who is he going to throw it to? Moss can get behind corners and safeties, but most teams in the league have defensive ability to take him away without compromising more than just that cliche'd eight in the box. Randle El doesn't have any sort of deep ability, so you're left hoping that either Thomas or Kelly will flash some deep ability.

The thing that's the big issue right now is converting the third downs we should, while being able to run the ball at a reasonable rate. To me, I think for a west coast team, in every sense of the word, trying to force the ball down the field actually detracts from our actual offensive problems, which is the fundamental pass protection (not necessarily OL) issues on downs the Redskins need to sustain drives, and the cast decline of the running game.

But you touched on the ultimate idea: if we only launch 24 bombs all of this upcoming season, but we complete them at a rate twice as good as last year: 7-8 completions + penalties drawn, you combine that with an improved offensive efficiency and Campbell has an outside shot at a 4,000 yard, 25 TD season.

But of the offensive improvements were likely to make this year, improved third down passing and moderately successful running behind a rebuild pass protection unit are likely. Improved deep ball efficiency is probably not happening in this season. Maybe I'm wrong and we underperformed our deep ball abilities last year, but I just don't think we have the ability to go deep four-five times a game with 40-50% success.
See I think JC can be a great deep ball thrower. I remember Troy Aikman pointing out that all JC has to do is put more air under his deep balls and he'll be fine. The real problem is he needs to either start thowing it or the coaching staff needs to start calling it more.
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Old 08-17-2009, 12:35 PM   #73
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Re: Preseason Game 1 Quick Hitters: First of all, calm the hell down

I was very disappointed with the Redskins performance in the first preseason game. People say these games are meaningless but that's a bunch of crap. These games mean everything for players that are in position battles (right tackle, wide receiver, defensive line, ...) and making the team. The disappointment is more with the lack of depth of the overall team. The Skins have some good marque players but the drop off in talent is tremendous. The reason for the drop off in talent is because of the organization philosophy of going after free agents and not through the draft. Most of the successful organizations (NE, Indy, Pittsburgh, Giants, ...) have built through the draft. I don't know why the Redskins continue to go against the grain. Not only does the Redskins trade away draft picks like Christmas presents but when they do select players, the picks are questionable. Our top draft picks have been good but the middle to late round picks are bad with one exception (Chris Horton). The good organizations consistently find quality starters in the middle rounds whereas the Skins pick guys like Justin Tryon or Durant Brooks that won't be around long.
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Old 08-17-2009, 02:57 PM   #74
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Re: Preseason Game 1 Quick Hitters: First of all, calm the hell down

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I was very disappointed with the Redskins performance in the first preseason game. People say these games are meaningless but that's a bunch of crap. These games mean everything for players that are in position battles (right tackle, wide receiver, defensive line, ...) and making the team. The disappointment is more with the lack of depth of the overall team. The Skins have some good marque players but the drop off in talent is tremendous. The reason for the drop off in talent is because of the organization philosophy of going after free agents and not through the draft. Most of the successful organizations (NE, Indy, Pittsburgh, Giants, ...) have built through the draft. I don't know why the Redskins continue to go against the grain. Not only does the Redskins trade away draft picks like Christmas presents but when they do select players, the picks are questionable. Our top draft picks have been good but the middle to late round picks are bad with one exception (Chris Horton). The good organizations consistently find quality starters in the middle rounds whereas the Skins pick guys like Justin Tryon or Durant Brooks that won't be around long.
The teams you've mentioned have certainly had a fair share of mid to late round picks, but let's see if it's actually true that they drafted well and consistenly find quality starters. Let's take a look at rounds 4-7 from 2006 through 2008

New England Patriots (2008)

4th round: Jonathan Wilhite (CB) 2nd on depth chart
5th round: Matt Slater (WR) 2nd on depth chart
6th round: Bo Ruud (LB) on the Browns now (spent rookie year on IR, waived in April)

New England Patriots (2007)

4th round: Kareem Brown (DT) On the Jets now (waived in 2007 after 11 games on the inactive roster by Pats)
5th round: Clint Oldenburg (T) On the Broncos now (waived before 2007 season by Pats)
6th round: Justin Rogers (LB) On the Cowboys now (waived before 2007 season by Pats)
6th round: Mike Richardson (DB) 3rd on depth chart
6th round: Justise Hairston (RB) On Bills now (Waived in September 2007 by Pats)
6th round: Corey Hilliard (T) On Colts now
7th round: Oscar Lua (LB) not in league right now
7th round: Mike Elgin (G) not in league right now

New England Patriots (2006)

4th round: Garrett Mills (RB) On Vikings now (waived by Pats in fall 2007)
4th round: Stephen Gostkowski (K) He's good
5th round: Ryan O'Callaghan (T) 3rd on the depth chart
6th round: Jeremy Mincey (DE) On Jaguars now (practice squad with Patriots)
6th round: Dan Stevenson (G) not in league right now
6th round: Le Kevin Smith (DT) 2nd on depth chart
7th round: Willie Andrews (CB) not in league right now

So that's 18 draft picks; one starter; three guys who are 2nd on depth chart (12 guys not on the team anymore)

Indianapolis Colts (2008)

4th round: Jacob Tamme (TE) 3rd on depth chart
5th round: Marcus Howard (DE) 3rd on depth chart
6th round: Tom Santi (TE) 4th on depth chart
6th round: Steve Justice (C) 2nd on depth chart
6th round: Mike Hart (RB) 3rd on depth chart, recovering from major injury
6th round: Pierre Garcon (WR) someone to watch out for as a #3 WR this year
7th round: Jamey Richard (C) 2nd on depth chart

Indianapolis Colts (2007)

4th round: Brannon Condren (DB) not in league right now (waived halfway through 2007 season by Colts)
4th round: Clint Session (LB) starting LB
5th round: Roy Hall (WR) not in league right now
5th round: Michael Coe (DB) 4th on depth chart
7th round: Keyunta Dawson (DT) 2nd on depth chart at LDE, 42 career tackles

Indianapolis Colts (2006)

5th round: Michael Toudouze (G) 3rd on depth chart
6th round: Charlie Johnson (T) 10 game starter in 2007, 16 game starter in 2008
6th round: Antoine Bethea (SS) starter at Free Safety
7th round: TJ Rushing (DB) 3rd on depth chart (starter at punt returner)

16 picks; 4 starters; 2 backups (1 guy not on the team anymore)

New York Giants (2008)

4th round: Bryan Kehl (OLB) 2nd on depth chart
5th round: Jonathan Goff (LB) 2 career tackles, not even sure he's still on the team
6th round: Andre Woodson (QB) Practice Squad, I think
6th round: Robert Henderson (DE) injured reserve

New York Giants (2007)

4th round: Zak DeOssie (LB) 2nd on depth chart
5th round: Kevin Boss (TE) starter at TE
6th round: Adam Koets (T) 2nd on depth chart
7th round: Michael Johnson (S) starter
7th round: Ahmad Bradshaw (RB) great, great pick

New York Giants (2006)

4th round: Barry Cofield (NT) starter
4th round: Guy Whimper (T) Practice squad, I think
5th round: Charlie Peprah (DB) on Packers now (think he spent 2006 on Giants PS)
7th round: Gerrick McPhearson (DB) not in league right now (2006 Giants PS)

13 picks; 4 starters; 2 backups (2 guys, at least, not on the team anymore)

Pittsburgh Steelers (2008)

4th round: Tony Hills (T) 2nd on depth chart
5th round: Dennis Dixon (QB) 3rd on depth chart
6th round: Mike Humpal (LB) not in league right now
6th round: Ryan Mundy (FS) 2nd on depth chart

Pittsburgh Steelers (2007)

4th round: Daniel Sepulveda (P) Was hurt last year, but he's good
4th round: Ryan McBean (DE) On Broncos now (played one game as a Steeler)
5th round: Cameron Stephenson (G) On Jaguars now (cut before 2007 season by Steelers)
5th round: William Gay (DB) starter
7th round: Dallas Baker (WR) 3rd on depth chart

Pittsburgh Steelers (2006)

4th round: Willie Colon (T) starter
4th round: Orien Harris (DT) On Lions now (did nothing with the Steelers)
5th round: Omar Jacobs (QB) not in league right now (cut before 2006 season by Steelers)
5th round: Charles Davis (TE) on Chargers now
6th round: Marvin Phillip (C) on Bills now
7th round: Cedric Humes (RB) not in league right now

15 picks; 2 starters, 2 backups (8 guys not on the team anymore)

From 2006 through 2008 the Redskins have had 15 draft picks from round 4 through 7; 1 starter and 5 backups (5 guys not on the team anymore)

In conclusion...you're wrong
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Old 08-17-2009, 03:01 PM   #75
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Re: Preseason Game 1 Quick Hitters: First of all, calm the hell down

Nice homework SS. I only wish people did more of this instead of tossing out assumptions and passing them off as fact.
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