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Vinny tips his hand on the final 53

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Old 09-03-2009, 01:45 PM   #151
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Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53

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Originally Posted by SBXVII View Post
I'll be honest with you. It doesn't even have to be Mason so long as they have a young talent to bring up through the ranks. but I do take exception to people saying blatently ...Mason sucks. If he did the team would not have gone to the lengths they have to get him back. However since stats are important to some please locate Mason and Cartwright on this stat board which I feel is more accurate;

NFL Stats: by Player Category

I'll save you some time. Mason is 33rd on the list of rushers and Cartwright is 99th.

or try this one...

NFL Stats: by Player Category

The highest Skin on the Return list is Thomas at 23 and Cartwright is 68. My point is stats can be manipulated for whatever purpose. Since Rock has not been used as much this preseason in order to look at others lets look at last yrs stats....

NFL Stats: by Player Category

Rock was 225 on the list of Rushers for last yr. Obviously his leadership skills and tackling are carrying over to his rushing yrds. If he's such a good tackler why doesn't he fill in as Safety. I mean the team definitly needs a sure tackler in the back field.

Rock may have been 6th on ESPN's total yrds for the 08 season as a KR but NFL.com has him tied at 23 for average yrds 25.6 yrds average for every KR.

NFL Stats: by Player Category

Another post related to stats..
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Old 09-03-2009, 01:46 PM   #152
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Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53

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Have Vinny answer that question he's the one that does the cuts, not me.
The answer is that we can't afford it. It isn't happening. It's not even financially possible. I guess it is possible if we also cut 2 or 3 other guys that count only a base salary against the cap.
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Old 09-03-2009, 01:47 PM   #153
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Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53

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Umm first your foolish. because your really not taht intelligent. Posting stats is not intelligence and I did not say they were irrelevant. I said, "STATS ARE IMPORTANT BUT NOT THE ONLY FACTOR" (sorry for the caps. I have to do this for the illiterate). Can you read that.

The comparison to Cribbs, Hester was to make a point. Just because you are 6th on the stats list doesn't mean you are the best player there ( I think Hester was 28th and Cribbs might have been 12th) is as far as talent an potential. If you think Rock is better than Cribbs or Hester your a crack head. That what the comparison was related to stats

Dude are you drinking. I didn't say his stats were terrible. Please post where I said that. I just told you to post the stats. Liek I couldn't go to NFL.com and get the stats myself or if I didn't know. Just wanted you to show that you jsut like to argue and that the only way you can do that is with stats not intelligent debate. You are putting words in my mouth. I think you are so self righteous you dont even bother to read other comments.

As far as the dorky comments. If the only thing you can do is post stats and say Rock is a good tackler on special teams. Yeah you are a dork. Because if Thomas, Moss or Betts had his return attempts I dont think they would do worse than him. Moss and Thomas I would put money on would do better. So to fabricate things..really does make you an ass and look like as dork.

I am not dismissing punt and kick coverage skills. But our ST suck. Another thing Rock doesn't make all the tackles every play.

Further more if I had a pocket full of f---s. I wouldn't give you one..

*Concurrent to this absurd analysis of yours - OOO someone got a dictionary. lol. Your so smart!!!

Dude we are on a football board not a tech geek forum. I could use "big words" all day. But that doesn't prove your intelligence. Just makes you look like a dork.
Betts was our kick returner, and he didn't do as well as Rock. He wasn't a bad KR though, and could probably be adequately forced into duty again.

People who take your attitude towards things tend not to last very long on here. It's not like they usually get banned, they just tend to find that no one really likes to engage them and then they stop showing up on the boards. The thing you haven't gotten yet, but you will, is that not everyone in this thread has yet to prove themselves as a valuable member of this community of diverse opinions, but you do fall into that category.

In other words, coming from someone else, maybe the notion that we could do without Rock would be met with more respect. Is that fair? Probably not. But when you are met with people who disagree strongly with your idea, by responding the way you have, all you are doing is confirming what they originally thought about you. Maybe that's not right, but the more you write, the more we know about you. That's not always a good thing.
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Old 09-03-2009, 01:50 PM   #154
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Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53

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Betts was our kick returner, and he didn't do as well as Rock. He wasn't a bad KR though, and could probably be adequately forced into duty again.

People who take your attitude towards things tend not to last very long on here. It's not like they usually get banned, they just tend to find that no one really likes to engage them and then they stop showing up on the boards. The thing you haven't gotten yet, but you will, is that not everyone in this thread has yet to prove themselves as a valuable member of this community of diverse opinions, but you do fall into that category.

In other words, coming from someone else, maybe the notion that we could do without Rock would be met with more respect. Is that fair? Probably not. But when you are met with people who disagree strongly with your idea, by responding the way you have, all you are doing is confirming what they originally thought about you. Maybe that's not right, but the more you write, the more we know about you. That's not always a good thing.
Pretty well said.

DMV, the self-contradicting points you are making are further undermining your credibility here at the Warpath. I doubt anyone is taking you seriously at this point, I certainly am not.

I'd rather discuss something intelligently with someone capable of doing so. Peace out, I'm done with you.
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Old 09-03-2009, 01:56 PM   #155
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Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53

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Too much player versus player rather than roles we need filled in this discussion. I'd like to talk about things this team needs and if we can get some of those things out of the people who are currently on our roster or if we need to go outside of the organization and pick up or trade for some new players to fill those roles. The following list of roles is not necessarily in order of importance to the success of the team.

Offensive Tackle - Frankly, I just can't fathom how Vinny can believe that we're OK at that position. It's a near certainty that Chris Samuels is going to miss some time with his bad knee and right now it looks like they're counting on Mike Williams and Jeremy Bridges as the backups at OT. Bad move. I don't think Williams is ready to play yet and Bridges is really a G. We need to make a trade, if possible, or pick up a veteran OT for insurance.
I think a veteran o-lineman can be picked up once things shake up after roster cuts. Although other than trading a current player, I would not really trade any draft picks for a back up lineman. I'm sure once teams trim down their rosters, we can pick up a lineman for depth.

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Third String QB - Really, who the hell cares? We're not going to be counting on either of these guys, so choose your favorite or we can pick up someone else.

I feel pretty good about the rest of the roles on the team.
Agreed!!
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:09 PM   #156
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Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53

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I have this nagging fear that Fletch will be afflicted with Cris Dishman Syndrome (Dishman, you may not recall, was one of the league's premiere corners in 1997 and then just dropped in 1998)
Interesting. My only remote recollection of Dishman as a player is from his post-Washington years, in KC and Minnesota. So I PFR'ed him and found some similarities with him and Fletch.

Both posted near-career highs in AV (approximate value) in year n, but I think what seperates Dishman from Fletcher is that his performance in that one year (1997) appears to have been completely out of line with the rest of his career. When he did fall, it was just a little bit past (age-adjusted?) his former productivity. Probably felt like he just got worse overnight, but I imagine that part of that was his unexpected improvement in 1997.

On the other side, one of Fletcher's top comparables through 11 NFL seasons just happens to be Michael Barrow--the year he signed in Washington. Though its worth saying that Fletcher has been a better player throughout his career.
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:25 PM   #157
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Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53

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Ultimately what worries me isn't depth. Really no other teams in the entire league have significantly more depth than we do. My problem is that Blache just doesn't seem to embrace the concept of utilizing players based on their strengths. He has a scheme and he wants everyone to run it. No changing things up to fit personnel. You can see it during games and in general. How often do we get trampled on for an entire quarter or more before he finally makes an adjustment. It's like he has decided that the scheme comes above all else. And the adjustmenst usually work but he's so damn stubborn. It's clear that he thinks that players just need to do better executing his scheme rather than him trying to make it easier for them to execute. I like Blache but he does have some drawbacks.
You read my mind. With the FO acquiring AH and Orakpo I think they have shown a desire to increase pressure on the QB which may force Blache to start showing some flexability. At least with the front four or seven. He did send MW on a lot of passing downs as I think he will Orakpo. I wonder though if Blache has intentionally left his corners in certain situations just to see how they handle it. This is something he has done in preseason since he was DC in Chicago. Hopefully once the season starts he will make adjustments before we get trampled for a full quarter. But he does seem stubborn and at times appears to make adjustments only after it has been repeatedly shown that what he's trying to do is not working.
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:25 PM   #158
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Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53

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Interesting. My only remote recollection of Dishman as a player is from his post-Washington years, in KC and Minnesota. So I PFR'ed him and found some similarities with him and Fletch.

Both posted near-career highs in AV (approximate value) in year n, but I think what seperates Dishman from Fletcher is that his performance in that one year (1997) appears to have been completely out of line with the rest of his career. When he did fall, it was just a little bit past (age-adjusted?) his former productivity. Probably felt like he just got worse overnight, but I imagine that part of that was his unexpected improvement in 1997.

On the other side, one of Fletcher's top comparables through 11 NFL seasons just happens to be Michael Barrow--the year he signed in Washington. Though its worth saying that Fletcher has been a better player throughout his career.
Some dude once said "STATS ARE IMPORTANT, BUT NOT THE ONLY FACTOR!!!"

Seriously though, Dishman's stats are misleading because, as you're aware, sometimes the best corners have the least impressive stats. Do you think Larry Brown had two interceptions in the Super Bowl against the Steelers because he was some phenom CB...or because he was lined up on the other side of Deion Sanders?

Granted, CD was initially brought here to be a nickel back (and insurance in case Tom Carter left, which he did), but still the drop off was pretty ugly

Interesting side note, a couple of players who played opposite Dishman in Houston and had some good seasons playing opposite him-Steve Jackson and Jerry Gray. I think Gray played just one season in Houston, but Jackson played his whole career in Houston/Tennessee
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:32 PM   #159
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Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53

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Originally Posted by SmootSmack View Post
Some dude once said "STATS ARE IMPORTANT, BUT NOT THE ONLY FACTOR!!!"

Seriously though, Dishman's stats are misleading because, as you're aware, sometimes the best corners have the least impressive stats. Do you think Larry Brown had two interceptions in the Super Bowl against the Steelers because he was some phenom CB...or because he was lined up on the other side of Deion Sanders?

Granted, CD was initially brought here to be a nickel back (and insurance in case Tom Carter left, which he did), but still the drop off was pretty ugly

Interesting side note, a couple of players who played opposite Dishman in Houston and had some good seasons playing opposite him-Steve Jackson and Jerry Gray. I think Gray played just one season in Houston, but Jackson played his whole career in Houston/Tennessee
I used AV because it (tries) to use unit performance as a base, and divide the credit according to the playing time in the unit. As it goes (and I've yet to verify this elsewhere) Washington probably had excellent pass defense in 1997, but dropped off in 1998 significantly, with Dishman being an obvious example.

There is, of course, a reason the A is for approximate. I'm completely bastardizing the purpose of the stat.

And Al Davis agrees with me that Larry Brown was actually a phenom cornerback, and not some scumbag graduate of Prime U! (Completely kidding. Except the Davis part.)
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:39 PM   #160
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Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53

Regardless of who our #2 and #3 RBs are, the thought occurred to me that neither Rock or Betts will likely still be on the team in 2 years. We're financially committed to Portis, but neither of them is particularly explosive, and other than one great stretch a couple of years ago for Betts, neither of them has done much of anything as an RB in the NFL. What i'm getting to is that within the next 2 years, we're probably going to use a high draft pick or two on a running back to spell Portis on a more consistent basis and add some "UMPH!" to our running attack. So in the long-term, it doesnt really matter who makes the roster behind Portis now; so we might as well pick the guy(s) we think have the best chance to make an impact now. If we really need special teams help, then Rock stays. If we don't there,s no reason to keep him around. Betts is useless on special teams, so what we have to ask is, are Mason, Alridge, or Dorsey better complimentary backs to Portis than Betts. If not, then there's no reason to cut Betts.

One other thing to consider is even if we added Mason, Aldridge, or Dorsey as an extra running back, they probably wouldnt be active on gameday, since the plan would always be to have Rock for Special-Teams-Only and Betts for Backing-Up-Portis-Only and Sellars is our Only FullBack. So the only reason to keep a 5th back on the 53-man roster is because we are worried about injuries and feel the potential 5th back is so amazing that he wouldnt last on our practice squad. From that perspective, I don't think Mason, Aldridge, or Dorsey deserves to be a 5th back, who will always be inactive on gameday. I could potentially accept it if one of them made it at the expense of Betts or Cartwright, but not as a 5th guy. If thats the plan, we'd be better served to place two of them on the practice squad and see who sticks.

At the end of the day, i'd be truly shocked if our RB situation doesnt look exactly like it did last year. The only option i can really see is trading Aldridge for Cartwright. The dude's got some serious speed and Cartwright doesnt really contribute as much to this team as some think he does. Remember, despite all the talk about how vital he is to our special teams, not a single team in the 31-team league wanted him when he was a FA last year. Not one. If that's not damning, then I don't know what is.

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Old 09-03-2009, 02:44 PM   #161
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Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53

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Regardless of who our #2 and #3 RBs are, the thought occurred to me that neither Rock or Betts will likely still be on the team in 2 years. We're financially committed to Portis, but neither of them is particularly explosive, and other than one great stretch a couple of years ago for Betts, neither of them has done much of anything as an RB in the NFL. What i'm getting to is that within the next 2 years, we're probably going to use a high draft pick or two on a running back to spell Portis on a more consistent basis and add some "UMPH!" to our running attack. So in the long-term, it doesnt really matter who makes the roster behind Portis now; so we might as well pick the guy(s) we think have the best chance to make an impact NOW.
We're not really that committed to Portis past 2010 either. He's going to be expensive to get rid of whenever we choose to go in another direction, but I think a season with an Alexander-esque 3.2 YPC is probably a prereq to Portis leaving Washington. As long as he's productive, we'll keep employing him.

I agree that the only logical reason that the team wouldn't have spent a late round pick on a back this year is that they are at least planning on using a second rounder on one next year. We could have had Javon Ringer or James Davis in the 5th round instead of Cody Glenn, but the team thought Glenn offered more on special teams, and that they could do better than Ringer or Davis.
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:49 PM   #162
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Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53

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We're not really that committed to Portis past 2010 either. He's going to be expensive to get rid of whenever we choose to go in another direction, but I think a season with an Alexander-esque 3.2 YPC is probably a prereq to Portis leaving Washington. As long as he's productive, we'll keep employing him.

I agree that the only logical reason that the team wouldn't have spent a late round pick on a back this year is that they are at least planning on using a second rounder on one next year. We could have had Javon Ringer or James Davis in the 5th round instead of Cody Glenn, but the team thought Glenn offered more on special teams, and that they could do better than Ringer or Davis.
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:01 PM   #163
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Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53

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Pretty well said.

DMV, the self-contradicting points you are making are further undermining your credibility here at the Warpath. I doubt anyone is taking you seriously at this point, I certainly am not.

I'd rather discuss something intelligently with someone capable of doing so. Peace out, I'm done with you.
What was self contradicting? No I basically see it as you and your two cronies as being self assigned elder statesman of the board. You all gang up on people and try to make their opinion invalid. Its a opinion not fact. If everyone had the same opinions. What would we have to talk about on this board??? I also see you all are also doing this to other people on this board. Who cares if you take me seriously dude? I am beginning to really think you are a dork. Because this board is your home. I post my thoughts and opinions. Because I want to. Not for you only. This is the US. I can say what the f--k I want and for you to insult my intelligence because you can't comprehend or agree with what I am saying makes you an asshole. You probably voted for Bush both times didn't you. You probably think the WMD's are still out there. Dude I could care less what you think. Your gum under my shoe. Better yet crap under my shoe.
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:04 PM   #164
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Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53

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We're not really that committed to Portis past 2010 either. He's going to be expensive to get rid of whenever we choose to go in another direction, but I think a season with an Alexander-esque 3.2 YPC is probably a prereq to Portis leaving Washington. As long as he's productive, we'll keep employing him.

I agree that the only logical reason that the team wouldn't have spent a late round pick on a back this year is that they are at least planning on using a second rounder on one next year. We could have had Javon Ringer or James Davis in the 5th round instead of Cody Glenn, but the team thought Glenn offered more on special teams, and that they could do better than Ringer or Davis.
Man I was pulling really hard for Javon Ringer pre-draft, and was really annoyed when we took Glenn. I'll be even more annoyed when Glenn gets cut. Given Jonathan Stewart's health right now, I wouldn't be surprised to see Ringer see some time in Carolina. He's a burner with nice strength and would have made sense with our 5th pick. If Marko pans out, I guess I can forgive Vinny.
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:09 PM   #165
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Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53

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What was self contradicting? No I basically see it as you and your two cronies as being self assigned elder statesman of the board. You all gang up on people and try to make their opinion invalid. Its a opinion not fact. If everyone had the same opinions. What would we have to talk about on this board??? I also see you all are also doing this to other people on this board. Who cares if you take me seriously dude? I am beginning to really think you are a dork. Because this board is your home. I post my thoughts and opinions. Because I want to. Not for you only. This is the US. I can say what the f--k I want and for you to insult my intelligence because you can't comprehend or agree with what I am saying makes you an asshole. You probably voted for Bush both times didn't you. You probably think the WMD's are still out there. Dude I could care less what you think. Your gum under my shoe. Better yet crap under my shoe.
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