Vinny tips his hand on the final 53

CRedskinsRule · 09-03-2009, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmvskinzfan08

No he called me a half-wit while back. Stats are important but not everything. Devin Hester is 28th on that list. Would you rather have him or Rock. Josh Cribbs is under him also..Who would you rather have. Is that so hard to understand. No my point was the one I made above. I am well aware that Rock has only return 1 in his whole career. I was actually be sarcastic. because I knew he would go through the effort to post the stats like an ass. But to make my point again. he came out with the half-wit comment and began to belittle me. Read the previous reply then you willget my point. Stats are important. But NOT EVERYTHING. We had the 4th ranked D in the league last year. But only had 28 sacks. Denver was one of the top offenses in the league. They sucked. So there are other things that factor in beside just the numbers..

See, I understand that stats aren't everything, but if you exclude stats, what else do you look at when defending/criticizing Cartwright? from what i have read it seems like your biggest beef is only 1 TD in 3 yrs. If thats true, than its a stat, and by all the stats together Cartwright is a top returner. The best no, but proven effective yes.

If you say don't only use stats, then the question is, what else do you want to look at; the pro-RC people point to his locker room presence, his leadership on all phases of STs, except FG.(again as highlighted by coaches and players alike). And his short yardage pounding(yes this is his weakest part). All I see the anti-RC people saying is, we gotta go with someone new. Maybe I've missed the non-stat argument, if so please restate it.

Overall, if the team goes a different way, great I hope it works. If they stay with RC, well then we should have a top 10 return game, albeit unlikely to see it produce that 1 TD you want.

GTripp0012 · 09-03-2009, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmvskinzfan08

Okay. Answer this question honestly.

Who would you rather have?

Devin Hester or Rock?
Josh Cribbs or Rock?

Like I said stats are important but they aren't EVERYTHING

As far as the 0 td comment. I think he has been in the league for 7 goingon 8 yrs. So he should havemore than 1 return for a TD..

Look at the versatility of the players on this list. Also look at their ages.

Most play a prominent role on defense or offense. Rock doesn't

THIS WAS NEVER, EVER THE QUESTION.

You can't have Cribbs or Hester to replace him. You're making a half-wit argument.

If you cut Rock to get a 3rd string RB on the roster who, if he isn't better, at least is younger, then Rock's contribution get replaced by people who probably aren't very good at them. Hey, maybe you get lucky and find another special teams demon in Devin Thomas. But you don't count on it, certainly, and you expect to take a hit on special teams.

Which is justifiable, if you are getting a LOT better on offense. But this is not what is happening here.

CRedskinsRule · 09-03-2009, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmvskinzfan08

Okay. Answer this question honestly.

Who would you rather have?

Devin Hester or Rock?
Josh Cribbs or Rock?

Like I said stats are important but they aren't EVERYTHING

As far as the 0 td comment. I think he has been in the league for 7 goingon 8 yrs. So he should havemore than 1 return for a TD..

Look at the versatility of the players on this list. Also look at their ages.

Most play a prominent role on defense or offense. Rock doesn't

This is quite a nice false dilemna. If it were Madden or Fantasy, I personally would want Sproles. BUT this is the NFL, real contracts, real people. We have 3 or 4 people to consider, none of whom are a Hester, Cribbs, or Sproles. Rock is a proven top 6 returner for the past 3 years. That is a good thing. I would like to see DT tonight, see what he can do, and maybe we do let Rock go. But lets not kid ourselves and think Mason, or Aldridge, or Dorsey are equal to Hester/Cribbs/Sproles.

dmvskinzfan08 · 09-03-2009, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

See, I understand that stats aren't everything, but if you exclude stats, what else do you look at when defending/criticizing Cartwright? from what i have read it seems like your biggest beef is only 1 TD in 3 yrs. If thats true, than its a stat, and by all the stats together Cartwright is a top returner. The best no, but proven effective yes.

If you say don't only use stats, then the question is, what else do you want to look at; the pro-RC people point to his locker room presence, his leadership on all phases of STs, except FG.(again as highlighted by coaches and players alike). And his short yardage pounding(yes this is his weakest part). All I see the anti-RC people saying is, we gotta go with someone new. Maybe I've missed the non-stat argument, if so please restate it.

Overall, if the team goes a different way, great I hope it works. If they stay with RC, well then we should have a top 10 return game, albeit unlikely to see it produce that 1 TD you want.

NO. I am not excluding stats. That's the thing. I am including everything. Age, Versatilty, Running Ability & Stats. Not just stats alone. Its not a question about only kick returns. Its a question of if he is that valuable that we can't use another player that could "possibly" be as good as him as a returner. Who can also contribute at anotehr position like back up running back, wr or defensive player. Him being one dimensional and not that dynamic makes him expendable. I will bet you. If devin was back there he could return punts just as well as or better. But he also plays WR too...How many times I have to explain this....

Just like I created a post about Devin Kick Returner?

Some people got waht I was saying. some were like it would never happend. then what happend the next preseason game. They tried him out a KR. But I know nothing about football. The writing is on the wall!!

dmvskinzfan08 · 09-03-2009, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

This is quite a nice false dilemna. If it were Madden or Fantasy, I personally would want Sproles. BUT this is the NFL, real contracts, real people. We have 3 or 4 people to consider, none of whom are a Hester, Cribbs, or Sproles. Rock is a proven top 6 returner for the past 3 years. That is a good thing. I would like to see DT tonight, see what he can do, and maybe we do let Rock go. But lets not kid ourselves and think Mason, or Aldridge, or Dorsey are equal to Hester/Cribbs/Sproles.

Who the hell said that?

the statement I made was about STATS. I am saying that jsut because a player has formidable stats doesn't mean he is the best player. That's why I used Cribbs and Hester as an example. Mason, Aldridge or Dorsey are no where in the league as those guys. But one thing is for sure. Rock is not goign to get any better. Let's just let M.A.D go (Mason, Aldridge & Dorsey) and stick with Rock. then maybe TTB will be available in the future.

GTripp0012 · 09-03-2009, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmvskinzfan08

NO. I am not excluding stats. That's the thing. I am including everything. Age, Versatilty, Running Ability & Stats. Not just stats alone. Its not a question about only kick returns. Its a question of if he is that valuable that we can't use another player that could "possibly" be as good as him as a returner. Who can also contribute at anotehr position like back up running back, wr or defensive player. Him being one dimensional and not that dynamic makes him expendable. I will bet you. If devin was back there he could return punts just as well as or better. But he also plays WR too...How many times I have to explain this....

Just like I created a post about Devin Kick Returner?

Some people got waht I was saying. some were like it would never happend. then what happend the next preseason game. They tried him out a KR. But I know nothing about football. The writing is on the wall!!

Thing is, you're not including everything. You might be including more than just kick return yardage, but you aren't going to win a nobel prize for doing that. You aren't looking at the big picture.

You've (very unsuccessfully) tried to disprove that Rock offers plus value. Then you've asserted that we need to get younger at the RB position (probably correct), but don't suggest any alternatives to how this could happen. You basically just hate Rock irrationally for everything he is not.

What is really apparent is that you really think highly of your own football knowledge, which is fair. However, you've yet to show us any reason to take said knowledge seriously. If you know as much as you think you do, there should not be such a disconnect there.

GTripp0012 · 09-03-2009, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmvskinzfan08

Who the hell said that?

the statement I made was about STATS. I am saying that jsut because a player has formidable stats doesn't mean he is the best player. That's why I used Cribbs and Hester as an example. Mason, Aldridge or Dorsey are no where in the league as those guys. But one thing is for sure. Rock is not goign to get any better. Let's just let M.A.D go (Mason, Aldridge & Dorsey) and stick with Rock. then maybe TTB will be available in the future.

You just rebutted CRedskinsRule accusation of a false alternative with a false alternative. You are quite a piece of work.

You don't HAVE to release Rock to keep one of Mason/Alridge/Dorsey. It was your idea that Rock should go and make room. It was incredibly shortsighted to ignore that Rock has nothing to do with your desire for a younger, more explosive RB, but yet, that's where we're at.

SBXVII · 09-03-2009, 12:56 AM

Stats a side, the team drills in the "versatility" among players issue. My issue is the fact people including the coach's want to comment on Mason's lack of playing special teams but want to over look Cartwright's lack of playing RB. As funny as you all think it sounds I think Mason is better then Rock maybe even better then Betts. Rock never gets positive yrds as a RB he gets lucky and breaks one for 30-40 yrds in a game when utilized as a RB during preseason against 2nd stringers. Mason lead the league in yrds against same said 2nds stringers. One would wonder why a RB in the league for 8yrs, according to ESPN, can't do better against 2nd stringers. Apparently he's not good of a RB.

Betts is not bad but is getting old which brings on the issue of injuries. Didn't he just sit out a preseason game due to one? I know it's only preseason and probably wants to heal prior to the season but the fact is he was nicked. At close to 30 yrs of age he's no spring chicken and the pounding will wear on his body just as it has Portis the last few yrs. Also can someone explain why the team is planning on using Betts as the third down back when on countless times he could not pick up 4th and 1 or 3rd and 2? Most of us on the boards screamed that Portis should have been getting those carries or Sellers.

Lotus · 09-03-2009, 12:57 AM

We could resolve this argument by having Haynesworth return kicks. It would revolutionize the game.

CRedskinsRule · 09-03-2009, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SBXVII

Stats a side, the team drills in the "versatility" among players issue. My issue is the fact people including the coach's want to comment on Mason's lack of playing special teams but want to over look Cartwright's lack of playing RB. As funny as you all think it sounds I think Mason is better then Rock maybe even better then Betts. Rock never gets positive yrds as a RB he gets lucky and breaks one for 30-40 yrds in a game when utilized as a RB during preseason against 2nd stringers. Mason lead the league in yrds against same said 2nds stringers. One would wonder why a RB in the league for 8yrs, according to ESPN, can't do better against 2nd stringers. Apparently he's not good of a RB.

Betts is not bad but is getting old which brings on the issue of injuries. Didn't he just sit out a preseason game due to one? I know it's only preseason and probably wants to heal prior to the season but the fact is he was nicked. At close to 30 yrs of age he's no spring chicken and the pounding will wear on his body just as it has Portis the last few yrs. Also can someone explain why the team is planning on using Betts as the third down back when on countless times he could not pick up 4th and 1 or 3rd and 2? Most of us on the boards screamed that Portis should have been getting those carries or Sellers.

SO Why can't we keep the guy who gives us the proven return/st ability, and also bring in the most promising of the other RBs. Why does it seemngly have to be all or nothing?

CRedskinsRule · 09-03-2009, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lotus

We could resolve this argument by having Haynesworth return kicks. It would revolutionize the game.

Now that would be a sight. Imagine his face as hes huffing down the field, it may be enough to scare the defenders out of the way!

Ruhskins · 09-03-2009, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lotus

We could resolve this argument by having Haynesworth return kicks. It would revolutionize the game.

Or start another thread about the same topic where you can argue about it in a new setting? LOL.

dmvskinzfan08 · 09-03-2009, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

SO Why can't we keep the guy who gives us the proven return/st ability, and also bring in the most promising of the other RBs. Why does it seemngly have to be all or nothing?

Good point. If we keep 4 backs not including Sellers. That may be a possibility. I just think if we could keep a 2 out of M.A.D. (mason, aldridge and Dorsey. We could possibly find a diamond in the rough who could possibly contribute on more than one unit.

That's my point of view.

Whether its Mason & Aldridge, Aldridge & Dorsey or Mason & Dorsey. We prepare for the future and could possibly find a replacement for Portis in a few years. So we can use our picks next year on OLs & LBs. If they dont pan out. We can draft a RB the next year. I just don't want what happened last year to happen again. Even if Portis gets hurt and Betts is still their. He will still need someone to fill in for him on some play. Also someone that can punch it in at the goal line. I just think versatility and looking to the future is key.

SBXVII · 09-03-2009, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

SO Why can't we keep the guy who gives us the proven return/st ability, and also bring in the most promising of the other RBs. Why does it seemngly have to be all or nothing?

I'll be honest with you. It doesn't even have to be Mason so long as they have a young talent to bring up through the ranks. but I do take exception to people saying blatently ...Mason sucks. If he did the team would not have gone to the lengths they have to get him back. However since stats are important to some please locate Mason and Cartwright on this stat board which I feel is more accurate;

NFL Stats: by Player Category

I'll save you some time. Mason is 33rd on the list of rushers and Cartwright is 99th.

or try this one...

NFL Stats: by Player Category

The highest Skin on the Return list is Thomas at 23 and Cartwright is 68. My point is stats can be manipulated for whatever purpose. Since Rock has not been used as much this preseason in order to look at others lets look at last yrs stats....

NFL Stats: by Player Category

Rock was 225 on the list of Rushers for last yr. Obviously his leadership skills and tackling are carrying over to his rushing yrds. If he's such a good tackler why doesn't he fill in as Safety. I mean the team definitly needs a sure tackler in the back field.

Rock may have been 6th on ESPN's total yrds for the 08 season as a KR but NFL.com has him tied at 23 for average yrds 25.6 yrds average for every KR.

NFL Stats: by Player Category

dmvskinzfan08 · 09-03-2009, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

Or start another thread about the same topic where you can argue about it in a new setting? LOL.

NO I want to concentrate on the RB position solely and if Rock is expendable..That's why I started the thread. its more straight forward. So people can weigh in..

09-03-2009, 12:56 AM	#98
SBXVII Pro Bowl Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 7,498	Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53 Stats a side, the team drills in the "versatility" among players issue. My issue is the fact people including the coach's want to comment on Mason's lack of playing special teams but want to over look Cartwright's lack of playing RB. As funny as you all think it sounds I think Mason is better then Rock maybe even better then Betts. Rock never gets positive yrds as a RB he gets lucky and breaks one for 30-40 yrds in a game when utilized as a RB during preseason against 2nd stringers. Mason lead the league in yrds against same said 2nds stringers. One would wonder why a RB in the league for 8yrs, according to ESPN, can't do better against 2nd stringers. Apparently he's not good of a RB. Betts is not bad but is getting old which brings on the issue of injuries. Didn't he just sit out a preseason game due to one? I know it's only preseason and probably wants to heal prior to the season but the fact is he was nicked. At close to 30 yrs of age he's no spring chicken and the pounding will wear on his body just as it has Portis the last few yrs. Also can someone explain why the team is planning on using Betts as the third down back when on countless times he could not pick up 4th and 1 or 3rd and 2? Most of us on the boards screamed that Portis should have been getting those carries or Sellers.

09-03-2009, 12:57 AM	#99
Lotus Mann Up HOF! Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Hattiesburg, MS Posts: 8,906	Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53 We could resolve this argument by having Haynesworth return kicks. It would revolutionize the game. __________________ Rooting for the Dallas Cowboys should be recognized as a treatable mental disorder.

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Vinny tips his hand on the final 53

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