The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis

30gut · 09-23-2009, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lotus

Actually if we had gone for it and converted then we would have won the game, period. Nail in the coffin. Game over.

If we kick the field goal, then we give the ball to the Rams after a kickoff. The Rams could have run the kickoff back for a td. They could have thrown a td pass.

Kicking the field goal would not wrap up the game the way that going for it and getting one yard would have. I personally liked the aggressiveness of the call to just put the game away right then, right there.

According to that dudes own metrics the chance of made FG at the range is much higher then converting a on 4th and short.

Yeah the Rams could have ran the kickoff back for a TD but they could have also fumbled.

Rajmahal33 · 09-23-2009, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Going it for it was kind of stupid cause a fg could've won the game. I think you've gotta kick it there. But fine, if you want to go for it then have some damn variety in your run game. Everyone knew where the ball was going. I honestly think we need to try the wildcat w/ Betts and Portis. We need to do something, anything at this point to try and score more points.

I knew it was going to be a matter of time before someone watched the Miami game or the Eagles (with Vick) and suggested running the wildcat...

Two things:
1) The wildcat is a gimmick! It's just a matter of time and more importantly focus b4 NFL defenses (especially with athletically superior defensive ends) will find a way to stuff it completely. They don't practice to stop it like they do with other things that NFL offenses do b/c it's a trick set. Just because it worked for Miami against an Indy team that isn't good at stopping the run doesn't mean it's a viable solution for OUR redskin's team. The next time Miami plays a good run defense, I guarantee it won't have near that success level.

2) If, and it's a big IF, we are to put in some sets with the wildcat, ARE is much better suited to play under center, than either of those two. He was a good college QB, can run pretty well, and throw better than some of our backups (*cough* Collins). Plus IMO he has a better football mind than either Betts or Portis.

The bottom line is most people are complaining about scoring points and villifying Zorn for using too many trick plays (see: Portis' option pass). Why should we divert valuable practice reps, that a struggling offense like ours desperately needs, so we can make a half hearted attempt at copycatting the new "in" thing that desperate coaches throw into their playbook? Let's not reinvent the wheel, and just execute like we SHOULD be able to do.

Slingin Sammy 33 · 09-23-2009, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

What does that all mean? He shouldn't have been hired as the head coach in the first place, in my opinion, but he was and I'd like to see him be successful as our head coach. But there were serious locker room problems last year. I've been a bit out of the loop so far this season so I don't know if much has improved. But, as I mentioned in my smack down, as much as I would hate another change if a change is what is needed (hopefully not until the end of the year) then I say we just make it. Why prolong the inevitable?

Because we don't know if the change is inevitable. It's Game 2, a lot can happen from Game 2 to Game 3, let alone Game 2 to Game 12. I don't want to see the trigger pulled too quick. If you're right and Zorn can't get it done, we implode and he completely losses the locker room by Game 7 or 8 it means we're at .500 or sub- .500 and not making the playoffs anyway. There's not a tremendous benefit of a mid-season change to Holmgren (who may want to keep Zorn around anyway), Shan, Cowher, or Chucky. I hate to say it but it may be better at that point to let the season tank, we have our 1st & 2nd this year.

The issue for Snyder is also that if things are going completely south, showing some patience (and giving Zorn more than enough rope to hang himself) is the more prudent thing for him to do in light of his reputation for being a "knee-jerk" type owner.

SmootSmack · 09-23-2009, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rajmahal33

I knew it was going to be a matter of time before someone watched the Miami game or the Eagles (with Vick) and suggested running the wildcat...

Two things:
1) The wildcat is a gimmick! It's just a matter of time and more importantly focus b4 NFL defenses (especially with athletically superior defensive ends) will find a way to stuff it completely. They don't practice to stop it like they do with other things that NFL offenses do b/c it's a trick set. Just because it worked for Miami against an Indy team that isn't good at stopping the run doesn't mean it's a viable solution for OUR redskin's team. The next time Miami plays a good run defense, I guarantee it won't have near that success level.

2) If, and it's a big IF, we are to put in some sets with the wildcat, ARE is much better suited to play under center, than either of those two. He was a good college QB, can run pretty well, and throw better than some of our backups (*cough* Collins). Plus IMO he has a better football mind than either Betts or Portis.

The bottom line is most people are complaining about scoring points and villifying Zorn for using too many trick plays (see: Portis' option pass). Why should we divert valuable practice reps, that a struggling offense like ours desperately needs, so we can make a half hearted attempt at copycatting the new "in" thing that desperate coaches throw into their playbook? Let's not reinvent the wheel, and just execute like we SHOULD be able to do.

To think, the Wildcat technically began here with the Redskins with Norv Turner and Brian Mitchell. We are the birthplace of the Wildcat

SmootSmack · 09-23-2009, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Because we don't know if the change is inevitable. It's Game 2, a lot can happen from Game 2 to Game 3, let alone Game 2 to Game 12. I don't want to see the trigger pulled too quick. If you're right and Zorn can't get it done, we implode and he completely losses the locker room by Game 7 or 8 it means we're at .500 or sub- .500 and not making the playoffs anyway. There's not a tremendous benefit of a mid-season change to Holmgren (who may want to keep Zorn around anyway), Shan, Cowher, or Chucky. I hate to say it but it may be better at that point to let the season tank, we have our 1st & 2nd this year.

The issue for Snyder is also that if things are going completely south, showing some patience (and giving Zorn more than enough rope to hang himself) is the more prudent thing for him to do in light of his reputation for being a "knee-jerk" type owner.

I'm definitely not advocating an in-season change, I was speaking more about an off-season change. And, again, the whole thing about Zorn being close to being fired had they lost to the Eagles last year was about letting him go in the off-season. Not immediately after the game.

Beemnseven · 09-23-2009, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

To think, the Wildcat technically began here with the Redskins with Norv Turner and Brian Mitchell. We are the birthplace of the Wildcat

Elaborate please? Are you referring to the option play in Denver with Brian Mitchell back in 1995?

According to the Monday Night broadcast, David Lee, who is the Dolphins' QB coach, brought the Wildcat over from his days as QB coach/offensive coordinator of the Arkansas Razorbacks.

One might even be able to make the argument that the Wildcat actually began with Joe Gibbs and Brian Mitchell in the "Bodybag Game" back in '90. Mitchell took over at QB and took many direct snaps in that game.

DBUCHANON101 · 09-23-2009, 01:56 PM

The Wildcat is actually the Single Wing Offense that was used way back when teams like Princeton and Notre Dame were wearing leather helmets and winning titles. My youth football team runs the Single Wing. I tell the kids its the Wildcat to make them want to learn it because they hear about it on tv.

Beemnseven · 09-23-2009, 02:00 PM

One of the things the Wildcat does is make defenses account for the QB -- effectively making it 11 vs. 11, instead of 10 vs. 11 in a traditional offensive set where the QB is not a factor after the ball is out of his hands.

SmootSmack · 09-23-2009, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Elaborate please? Are you referring to the option play in Denver with Brian Mitchell back in 1995?

According to the Monday Night broadcast, David Lee, who is the Dolphins' QB coach, brought the Wildcat over from his days as QB coach/offensive coordinator of the Arkansas Razorbacks.

One might even be able to make the argument that the Wildcat actually began with Joe Gibbs and Brian Mitchell in the "Bodybag Game" back in '90. Mitchell took over at QB and took many direct snaps in that game.

Well I think it was actually Gus Malzahn at Arkansas who introduced the Wildcat to the Razorbacks. I can't remember where I saw this, but I remember Malzahn saying that when he saw Norv Turner put Mitchell in single-wing (Wildcat) formations he know it could work at a college/pro level. Up until then it was only at the high school level. I'll look for a link

SmootSmack · 09-23-2009, 02:02 PM

So I should say the Wildcat at an NFL level "began" with Norv (who still blows as a head coach)

DBUCHANON101 · 09-23-2009, 02:10 PM

"What would happen if someone came out with a single-wing offense? It would embarrass the hell out of us." -Vince Lombardi

Even back then, Vince knew that this offense was hard to defend and if a pro team ever used it they would be successful.

Mechanix544 · 09-23-2009, 02:52 PM

I just can't see the rationale behind going for it on fourth down after all game we've been doing the same exact thing and getting stopped. Between risking that or making it a FG and forcing the rams into having to make a TD, with the play of our defense, which is btw the only reason we won the game, why wouldnt you rest the game on their shoulders? They are the bunch that proved themselves, not the O. But if you are gonna go for it, QUIT RUNNING THE SAME EXACT PLAY TO THE SAME EXACT SIDE.

Zorn is an idiot, period.

Slingin Sammy 33 · 09-23-2009, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I'm definitely not advocating an in-season change, I was speaking more about an off-season change. And, again, the whole thing about Zorn being close to being fired had they lost to the Eagles last year was about letting him go in the off-season. Not immediately after the game.

Gotcha. The thing that got me was that Snyder would be ready to can Zorn after 1 season (in which we showed some real promise early on). That's not good. I don't see how Snyder could rationally attribute the second half collapse to Zorn. That's some wishy-washy doo-doo IMO.

DBUCHANON101 · 09-23-2009, 03:33 PM

Bottomline, we all know DS hired Zorn when all other options either turned him down or wanted time off. Zorn is not his first choice to be the HC of his team. He will look for any reason to let him go this season or after so he can bring in a big name like Holmgren,Shanahan,Cowher or Dungy.
It sucks but this is the reality of the situation IMO.

jsarno · 09-23-2009, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DBUCHANON101

I think Cowher is coming, there are many reasons why i believe this.
IMO..Zorn was hired out of necessity, other top candidates turned DS down -Spagnuolo- and others wanted time off before they come back. -Cowher,Shanahan and Holmgren-
Zorn was supposed to fix the offense, still waiting. 0-4
Zorn was never an OC so its not like he ever gameplanned vs an opponent.
MAINLY--Zorn doesnt tust his players and it reflects in his playcalling.
I think a tough,in your face HC is EXACTLY what this team needs. How many passes do you think Tana will drop if he has to go to the sideline and deal with Cowher in his face/grill? -whatever your pref- Same with dropped int's,fumbles,missed tackles,bad throws and missed blocks.

Harsh post, but right on.

09-23-2009, 01:56 PM	#52
DBUCHANON101 The Starter Join Date: May 2009 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,373	Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis The Wildcat is actually the Single Wing Offense that was used way back when teams like Princeton and Notre Dame were wearing leather helmets and winning titles. My youth football team runs the Single Wing. I tell the kids its the Wildcat to make them want to learn it because they hear about it on tv. __________________ But there's booze in the blender. And soon it will render. That frozen concoction that helps me hang on.

09-23-2009, 02:00 PM	#53
Beemnseven Fighting off The Crazies Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Virginia Beach Age: 39 Posts: 5,280	Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis One of the things the Wildcat does is make defenses account for the QB -- effectively making it 11 vs. 11, instead of 10 vs. 11 in a traditional offensive set where the QB is not a factor after the ball is out of his hands.

09-23-2009, 02:02 PM	#55
SmootSmack Mad Men Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 43,098	Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis So I should say the Wildcat at an NFL level "began" with Norv (who still blows as a head coach) __________________ You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You

09-23-2009, 02:10 PM	#56
DBUCHANON101 The Starter Join Date: May 2009 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,373	Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis "What would happen if someone came out with a single-wing offense? It would embarrass the hell out of us." -Vince Lombardi Even back then, Vince knew that this offense was hard to defend and if a pro team ever used it they would be successful. __________________ But there's booze in the blender. And soon it will render. That frozen concoction that helps me hang on.

09-23-2009, 02:52 PM	#57
Mechanix544 The Starter Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Fort Bliss, TX Posts: 2,043	Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis I just can't see the rationale behind going for it on fourth down after all game we've been doing the same exact thing and getting stopped. Between risking that or making it a FG and forcing the rams into having to make a TD, with the play of our defense, which is btw the only reason we won the game, why wouldnt you rest the game on their shoulders? They are the bunch that proved themselves, not the O. But if you are gonna go for it, QUIT RUNNING THE SAME EXACT PLAY TO THE SAME EXACT SIDE. Zorn is an idiot, period. __________________ Ain't Nothin Like a Good B Western. YEEHAW

09-23-2009, 03:33 PM	#59
DBUCHANON101 The Starter Join Date: May 2009 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,373	Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis Bottomline, we all know DS hired Zorn when all other options either turned him down or wanted time off. Zorn is not his first choice to be the HC of his team. He will look for any reason to let him go this season or after so he can bring in a big name like Holmgren,Shanahan,Cowher or Dungy. It sucks but this is the reality of the situation IMO. __________________ But there's booze in the blender. And soon it will render. That frozen concoction that helps me hang on.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis

Redskins Locker Room