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What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?

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Old 09-22-2009, 10:36 AM   #16
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Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?

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Originally Posted by Mattyk72 View Post
Yeah no doubt. Get all those big targets on the field at once and take your best shot. We have the horses, for whatever reason they're not being used.
Im tired of seeing two TE's and Moss split wide at the 5 yard line. Why did we get these big receivers if we arent gonna use them? The fact that we cannot run right sure hurts when we get down there as well. Zorn is the biggest problem IMO, but he is too busy defending his calling a RB pass from the 7 yard line.....what a dumbass!
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:39 AM   #17
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Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?

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Originally Posted by hail_2_da_skins View Post
Bam! You hit the nail right on the head!

Zorn needs to be more in tune with the game situation.

You do not call a halfback option pass on 3rd and 8 yards to go. No defense in it's right mind is looking for a run on 3rd and 8. If you are running the ball well, that play works on first down, maybe second down but not third down when you have to convert. That was a bad call, I don't care what Zorn says.

The situation is 4th and less than a yard. To me, the smart call is run a quick running play. Do not give the defense an opportunity for penetration. Any slow developing play, has a potential for negative yards, not advisable in this situation. You have a 6' 5" 230 lb quarterback, how about a quarterback sneak, that should get a 1/2 yard.
My sentiments exactly....Sure you're not a football player on this team, sounds like players talking among themselves.
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:40 AM   #18
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Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?

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Originally Posted by roth74va View Post
Im tired of seeing two TE's and Moss split wide at the 5 yard line. Why did we get these big receivers if we arent gonna use them? The fact that we cannot run right sure hurts when we get down there as well. Zorn is the biggest problem IMO, but he is too busy defending his calling a RB pass from the 7 yard line.....what a dumbass!
He's too busy thinking...

It seems we also call a lot of plays, on both sides of the ball, that require far too much exact execution, to succeed. Maybe it isn't reasonable to expect 100% proper technique and execution play after play. Maybe working some plays/schemes in there that allow a little more wiggle room could help. Like I don't know, roll the f*cking QB out once in a while to give the play time to develop. Stop being a slave to the WC theory...or whatever theory.
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:41 AM   #19
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Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?

Redskins are 19th in total offense right in front of the Bears. Skins are 18th in the run and 18th in the pass. Jim Zorn needs to figure if he wants to be a running team or a passing team. I suggest Run that how we were 6-2 last running. Running less that 30 times a game is not going to get it.
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:43 AM   #20
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Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?

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Redskins are 19th in total offense right in front of the Bears. Skins are 18th in the run and 18th in the pass. Jim Zorn needs to figure if he wants to be a running team or a passing team. I suggest Run that how we were 6-2 last running. Running less that 30 times a game is not going to get it.
We haven't been able to consistently run the ball all pre-season or in the first two games.
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:50 AM   #21
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Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?

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Redskins are 19th in total offense right in front of the Bears. Skins are 18th in the run and 18th in the pass. Jim Zorn needs to figure if he wants to be a running team or a passing team. I suggest Run that how we were 6-2 last running. Running less that 30 times a game is not going to get it.
I respectfully disagree, we are built to be a passing team right now. The O-line opened 1 run for CP against the Giants, but did much better against a pathetic Rams team. If we wanted to run the ball, we draft 3 lineman in the 2nd round two years ago. Where is this dynamic, high-scoring offense they talked about when Zorn was hired? Its a passing league, running the ball and good defense isnt gonna cut it, not if we want to be a real contender.
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:38 AM   #22
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Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?

Is this a rhetorical question? We can't get TDs. This isn't rocket science. For all of these fancy shmancy schemes and what not, at the end of the day a guy runs or catches a ball in the end zone.
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:42 AM   #23
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Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?

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Is this a rhetorical question? We can't get TDs. This isn't rocket science. For all of these fancy shmancy schemes and what not, at the end of the day a guy runs or catches a ball in the end zone.
Yes but "why isn't it happening" is the point of the thread.
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:54 AM   #24
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Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?

Teams stop us from scoring. It is as simple as that. Whether it's talent, mental toughness, play-calling, we'll never know. We're not on the sideline and don't know what's going on within the orginization. I know that we deal in a lot of speculation on the board sometimes but I'm pissed that we're not scoring.

People ask why JR doesn't win races. I say it's simple, it's JR. Does he have a coke problem? Would he rather be fishing? What's the price of rice in China?

I don't know, don't care, couldn't give a eff. Put up or shut up! This isn't aimed at any poster on the board. This is just where I'm at as a fan. I'm not the only one either.
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:58 AM   #25
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Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?

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Originally Posted by KI Skins Fan View Post
I wanted to start this thread so we could discuss the Skins' Red Zone offense and only the Skins' Red Zone offense because I think that's our primary problem right now.

I'm a fan but I'm no football expert, so I'm hoping that some of the experts here can illuminate what's really going wrong for us in the Red Zone and how it can be fixed.

Would anyone like to take the first shot at it?
Many have already brought this up....Simplify.

-Often the most boring playcall is the most effective, B-gap ISO between Samuels & Dock. It's pretty easy to call a formation that makes the D give you the look you want. If they cheat to that gap, they've left the strong-side open, take it. You have a 280lb. Pro Bowl FB, let him clear the way. Folks see this once or twice and you've got a nice play-action set up.

- I don't think a Power back would've made any difference. Zone Blocking should not be called on the GL IMO. It requires a lateral step rather than "firing out". The D is bringing it down there and taking a lateral step will often cause the OL to get pushed into the backfield. On the last 4th down play this is exactly what happened to Dock. If you let Samuels & Dock fire out, they'll get a push, or at worst a stalemate, 9 times out of 10.

- Fade??? Why isn't it being called. In training camp I watched at least a 15 minute period where they ran nothing but fades. You're paying these big WRs to make plays, give them the shot. If they don't get it done, at least you know you need to find other WRs.

- QB sneak, if the C & Gs can't get a 1/2 yd, you don't deserve to win.

- Playcalling sequence. Play-action has to come on first down,or short yardage.

- Kelly & DT or Mitchell need to be on the outside in any GL package. The threat of a fade spreads the D, even if just a little and creates extra space.

- I don't know if Zorn allows JC to audible in the +10 or JC's just not doing it. Whatever the case, JC must have the ability to audible down there, and must do it.
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Old 09-22-2009, 12:07 PM   #26
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Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?

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Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33 View Post
Many have already brought this up....Simplify.

-Often the most boring playcall is the most effective, B-gap ISO between Samuels & Dock. It's pretty easy to call a formation that makes the D give you the look you want. If they cheat to that gap, they've left the strong-side open, take it. You have a 280lb. Pro Bowl FB, let him clear the way. Folks see this once or twice and you've got a nice play-action set up.

- I don't think a Power back would've made any difference. Zone Blocking should not be called on the GL IMO. It requires a lateral step rather than "firing out". The D is bringing it down there and taking a lateral step will often cause the OL to get pushed into the backfield. On the last 4th down play this is exactly what happened to Dock. If you let Samuels & Dock fire out, they'll get a push, or at worst a stalemate, 9 times out of 10.

- Fade??? Why isn't it being called. In training camp I watched at least a 15 minute period where they ran nothing but fades. You're paying these big WRs to make plays, give them the shot. If they don't get it done, at least you know you need to find other WRs.

- QB sneak, if the C & Gs can't get a 1/2 yd, you don't deserve to win.

- Playcalling sequence. Play-action has to come on first down,or short yardage.

- Kelly & DT or Mitchell need to be on the outside in any GL package. The threat of a fade spreads the D, even if just a little and creates extra space.

- I don't know if Zorn allows JC to audible in the +10 or JC's just not doing it. Whatever the case, JC must have the ability to audible down there, and must do it.
Great post!
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Old 09-22-2009, 12:22 PM   #27
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Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?

almost seems like Zorn was trying to get CP involved at all cost. How many games have you ever seen in which the team is in the red zone 4 times w/no TDs yet you can't blame the QB? (rationally, anyway)

Not just the option call, but in general, give JC a chance to get it in the end zone. Throwing on 1st down was a big part of the drives, keep it up in the r. zone. Even the most powerful running teams can't power it in w/a 2 TE set from 7 to 8 yrds. out.

Of course, Sellers & Dt could've made those plays. And if Orakpo didn't get that p. foul call, we might've taken it in for 6 & changed the game to a blowout.
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Old 09-22-2009, 12:24 PM   #28
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Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?

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See Boswell's article in yesterday's Wash Post. It does a pretty good job of answering your question.
Boswells' article doesn't answer anything, it's simply a summation of what's happened. No suggestions, no solutions, generalizations. He's a writer, writers write. I'd rather have someone providing suggestions/solutions rather than equating the Skins to the mule vs. a thoroughbred. As a fan of the Skins it's pretty insulting, but that's standard WP fare.

A couple of thoughts on the article:
- As a player who really gives a flying "F" what the fans or media think. All that matters is getting wins and what the coaches & owner thinks.

-From the article: "Get better again?
Actually, the Redskins -- especially Zorn's offense -- haven't improved at all, instead falling backwards since midseason last year. Once again, just as in '08, Zorn's biggest problem is the inability of his offensive coordinator to design plays, then call them appropriately, to score inside the 20-yard line. But Zorn is essentially his own final word on all offensive matters. So why yell at his team until he finishes berating himself?"

This is why the players, coaches and owner shouldn't give a flying "F" what the media thinks, because outside of the better analysts, they know next to nothing about what it takes to execute in a football game and they only speak/write in general terms and make assumptions that are often wrong. The Skins' biggest problem on offense in the second half of 2008 was injuries on the OL (which we only found out the true extent of after the season) not RZ playcalling.

- From the article: "In the most vivid symbol of his frustration, Zorn made as dubious a decision as you'll see, going for it on fourth and one at the Rams 2 with two minutes remaining. The conventional -- some would say "sane" -- reasoning is that you take the easy field goal for a five-point lead and force your foe to go all the way for a touchdown to win. Why get stopped, surrender the ball and risk losing the game on a long field goal -- which statistically is far easier to get than a touchdown in a short amount of time."

Maybe Boswell should read Warpath and get some real statistical analysis on that playcall, which was correct.

- Boswell putting the blame on JC for this???? Yes I understand the % of TD passes stat, but it's not like JC is missing throws consistently. The coaches calling the plays down there have a lot more to do with this stat than any inefficiencies by JC.

- No tall, talented WR. Kelly, Thomas, Mitchell come to mind as being big enough, Zorn needs to find out if they're "talented" enough. Give them a shot at the fades.
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Old 09-22-2009, 12:30 PM   #29
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Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?

My feelings on whats wrong with the red zone offense are summed up nicely here:

washingtonpost.com

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For Jim Zorn, there is always an explanation for why a specific play didn't work, and each day that follows a game during the Redskins' season, he spends time investigating the particulars on every snap...

...During his tenure overseeing the Redskins' offense, Zorn has professed confidence in his ability as a play-caller, even though he had never held the job in the NFL before Washington hired him from the Seattle Seahawks, where he had served as quarterbacks coach under offensive whiz Mike Holmgren.
Zorn's dellusional. He thinks he's a good play-caller, when he's not.
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Old 09-22-2009, 12:35 PM   #30
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Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?

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Originally Posted by Mattyk72 View Post
Yeah no doubt. Get all those big targets on the field at once and take your best shot. We have the horses, for whatever reason they're not being used.
I agree. We were longing for some tall receivers for the redzone for years. Now that we have them we dont use them. Doesn't make any sense. We have 3 receivers over 6'2. 2 Good tight ends. I just dont get it. But I am not a coach. Hopefully Zorn figures it out. But Gibbs couldn't even figure it out. But we do need our O-line to make some holes down there.
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