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Campbell's numbers dont lie

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Old 09-29-2009, 12:41 PM   #181
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

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Originally Posted by over the mountain View Post
JC played very well against the lions, he played well against the rams and did not play well against the giants.

JC's stats are in line for him to set career marks but lets not ignore JC's past stats and claim the 3 games of stats he has this year (with a huge portion of positive stats coming against the lions, rams and last 2 mins against the giants) should end all talk of JC not being more than a serviceable decent qb.

we can talk stats at the middle or end of the year; it was the lions, the freakin LIONS, and the JC lovers trot his stat sheet out like they have the cure to cancer.

let see how he looks at seasons end and talk stats. taking one or two games now and ignoring his past 20+ games doesnt seem genuine to me is your a stat lover. seems too selective to focus on one segment of numbers (3 games) and one portion of stats and not comparing them to the whole.

if the JC lovers can start this thread as an end all to the qb debate after he looked great against the lions can the JC bashers start a thread calling for his release after he looks crappy against a top 5 defense? i'd say no to both.

i dont understand either party here. he throws 1 td pass = hallelujah i told them guys JC is our man . . . he throws 1 int = gosh dangit this team is going nowhere with JC at the helm.

go skins!!
Which stats are ignored from his previous 20 games? How he continually improved his completion percentage, QB rating, YPA, TD:INT ratio? Which of those stats reflects negatively on him?
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Old 09-29-2009, 12:45 PM   #182
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

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Originally Posted by over the mountain View Post
JC played very well against the lions, he played well against the rams and did not play well against the giants.

JC's stats are in line for him to set career marks but lets not ignore JC's past stats and claim the 3 games of stats he has this year (with a huge portion of positive stats coming against the lions, rams and last 2 mins against the giants) should end all talk of JC not being more than a serviceable decent qb.

we can talk stats at the middle or end of the year; it was the lions, the freakin LIONS, and the JC lovers trot his stat sheet out like they have the cure to cancer.

let see how he looks at seasons end and talk stats. taking one or two games now and ignoring his past 20+ games doesnt seem genuine to me is your a stat lover. seems too selective to focus on one segment of numbers (3 games) and one portion of stats and not comparing them to the whole.

if the JC lovers can start this thread as an end all to the qb debate after he looked great against the lions can the JC bashers start a thread calling for his release after he looks crappy against a top 5 defense? i'd say no to both.

i dont understand either party here. he throws 1 td pass = hallelujah i told them guys JC is our man . . . he throws 1 int = gosh dangit this team is going nowhere with JC at the helm.

go skins!!

ps - this comes off as an "i told you so" thread, i dont want to hear any complaining when JC has a bad game and the JC bashers make their own thread.
I'm not a JC lover per se, I just go after people that come up with these "logical" arguments to bash a player that they just plainly don't like (see my posts about D. Hall).

This team will be in a better place if Jason Campbell succeeds, yet a lot of these fans are going out of their way to make the argument that he has failed. He has not succeeded this season (W-L record), but he hasn't failed either. And right now, whether people like it or not, he's the best option we have.
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Old 09-29-2009, 12:46 PM   #183
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

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Originally Posted by Ruhskins View Post
This is the part that kills me about some of the fans...they bitch about not building through the draft or building through the trenches, blah blah blah. If Campbell gets run out of town successfully, basically we will spend our resources on a new QB, instead of spending them on offensive linemen and linebackers.
And I know I've been guilty of it by giving up on Zorn already, but we've got a bunch of mini-Snyders who hate the actual Snyder.

Some 'fans' have already given up on Campbell, despite what he does. If he comes out this week and goes 21-30, 275, 3 TD then it will be 'well yeah, he did it against the Bucs, so what.' It's frustrating but it is what it is.

Among our greatest needs for change are:
Play calling on both sides of the ball
OL
LB
RB
depth at CB

QB play is FAR from our biggest problem but the Madden generation can't comprehend that.
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Old 09-29-2009, 12:50 PM   #184
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

Your first setntence sums it up perfectly
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Old 09-29-2009, 12:54 PM   #185
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

DMV, I have agreed with you on many of topics in the past, but honestly I think I found one I can say I agree with you on.

People say he doesn't have a quick release.
It's not just us fans friend it's Zorn also. He has stated JC needs to get the ball out faster. One would think the designer of the master scheme would know best.

You can't have a quick release when no one is open.
I actually believe this is Hixon's fault. He's a failure at WR coach.

JC can't read defenses.
I'll believe this until I'm dead. Maybe it's because he's under center and can't survey the field as well but he seems to change into the wrong play way to many times. In shot gun he's not as bad.

He lead his team to a national championship in college.
I credit him for this. I have supported him all the way up until last week. I am now thinking he never would have been drafted had we not picked him up. If JC and Daniels both came out of the same draft we would have cut JC, I have no doubt. Right now we have too much invested in him to simply cut him.

-Thomas drops a TD pass
-Sellers drops a TD pass
-Zorn calls a HB option play
-We try to run the ball in at the goal line on 2 separate occasions
-Moss fumbles in the redzone
I don't think any one would disagree with you on the fact that other players are not doing their part, but that's only half the truth.
-JC over throwing Kelly
-JC throwing a dirt ball to Cooley
-JC over throwing ARE
-JC throwing the ball behind his receivers all the time while in route
-JC waiting for his receivers to get out of their breaks and come to a complete stop before getting the pass off
-etc. etc.

Personally I like JC. I think he has a strong arm and can get the ball down field. I'm not sure of his accuracy but he can get the ball down field.

Have any of you known someone who could take a test and ace it? be the #1 person for the job, but when you put them in a real live situation they can't perform? this is how I see JC. I know the whole "stat" issue will be brought up cause everyone likes stat's. Apparently that's the measuring stick around here. but there's more to playing football then stats. Most of Gibbs1 QB's would never have stayed in the NFL. Most of his QB's were mediocre and had lower percentages then most of the other top ten teams in the league. Guess who Gibbs1 won SB's with. Guess who out classed, out performed other QB's. Maybe I'm making a case for you but I'm also trying to point out that he could have the best stats and still suck as a QB. No different then being the best QB in the league and having crappy stats.

Right now my issue is the team needs a spark. Maybe simply benching a player or two will wake up this team. I know Collins is not the answer. If he was he would be #1 QB right now. but....he does have a quick release, he does know how to get the ball out while the WR is coming out of his break, and if we are going to throw interceptions why not do it with a QB who's doing what he supposed to do with the ball then we can look at the WR's and wonder why they were not in position. Instead of wondering if it's JC's fault, the WR's fault, the O-lines fault, or the HC's fault.

I think we have too many problems as of right now. Motivation is low. Players may be trying too hard. I don't know but when I see Atlanta and Baltimore and Miami bring in new HC's and they do well and all three go into the play offs and we did not I got miffed. This year it was the New Jersey and Detroit, now I'm not saying either will make the play offs but so far the Jets have been putting up more then 20 points in their games and the Lions just kicked our asses on both sides of the ball. I know the points don't show it. This is not Zorn's first yr and we are not supposed to be trying to find an identity at this point. We are supposed to already have it. Yet the other 4 teams look better then us. So yes I'm miffed at everyone not just JC.

I went to sleep last night as happy as a clam thinking how nice it would be to have DS eat some crow and bring in Marty Schottenheimer as GM and Brian Schottenheimer as HC turning our two stud WR's into 1,000 yrd each WR's. Making Mason or Alridge or whoever a 1,000 yrd RB like he has in Jersey the last 2 yrs. I picture an offense that can score at will and a defense that creates 3 and outs constantly with sacks and interceptions. Guess what? I got to sleep fast and had a restfull night.
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Old 09-29-2009, 12:58 PM   #186
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

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Which stats are ignored from his previous 20 games? How he continually improved his completion percentage, QB rating, YPA, TD:INT ratio? Which of those stats reflects negatively on him?
lol are you going to tell that JC having the 19th best qb rating last year = great qb? seeems about avg to me, even slightly below avg for mathematicians.

or that he ranked 19th last year in pass yds and he played every game/snap versus other qbs who didnt even play every game.

look man, i like JC but i find it annoying that JC lovers trot out his stats after he looked good against the lions and rams and ignore everything else stat related. i can clearly see where the JC bashers are coming from and why they think that way. to question or attack skins fans who dont believe in JC is just being ignorant to a fault by JC lovers.

i say this alot, JC does enough things well and poorly to give both sides ammunition to fire at each other.

go skins!!

ps those 19th ranked qb stats are Jcs best year too, just imagine where he would rank if he totaled up his career stats and compared them.
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:00 PM   #187
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

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Which stats are ignored from his previous 20 games? How he continually improved his completion percentage, QB rating, YPA, TD:INT ratio? Which of those stats reflects negatively on him?
I'm not sure if he's refering to it or not but I kinda felt he was refering to using JC's whole 5 yrs in the league not just his last 2 yrs. I know he was not used in his what 1st and 2nd yr but you can atleast count the 2 yrs with Gibbs whether he finished the season or not.

No different then Dallas fans like to only count the 90's when refering to stats but our best yrs were in the 80's when they sucked.
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:01 PM   #188
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

I fully understand your point that stats arent everything but lets not go too far. There is no such thing as one of the best qb's with the worst stats. These things go hand in hand. During the Gibbs 1.0 years no one can argue that those teams werent more talented, better coached, and had a greater sense of motivation than the current team or any team JC has been on. It's much easier to play QB and be succesful when everyone around you is succesful.
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:02 PM   #189
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

I think Matty should lock any thread that pop up about QBs. LOL.
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:02 PM   #190
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

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I'd love to see some stats picked apart from other QBs so we can see who else is not really "elite".

By the way I never said he was elite or even great, just good, and better than some are willing to give him credit for, that's all.

And again, ultimately my argument on all of this is our problems run much deeper than JC.
Its hard to make an arugment for any QB that had the melt down from last year and whats happened so far this year. JC has had his problems and tie that in and JC will not really get any break until we start winning. He may get a break if the O starts putting up some points but I have a hard time getting past what I have seen so far this year and last. No its not all his fault but as the QB alot of blame falls on him.
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:03 PM   #191
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

Some of you guys and gals are morons. You must be watching these games with blinders or drunk. The Red Zone offense and the defense is the problem. Jason Campbell is doing his job. It's not his fault if he is not even getting opportunities to even make plays in the Red Zone. Most of the time Zorn is calling running plays or half back option passes. A few of the passes that Campbell have thrown have been dropped. How do you come to the conclusion that you should put in a 38 year old career backup. Zorn needs to take off the shackles and allow Campbell make plays, call audibles at the line, run hurry-up offense to change the pace. The offense is too simple and predictable.
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:06 PM   #192
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

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I know the whole "stat" issue will be brought up cause everyone likes stat's. Apparently that's the measuring stick around here. but there's more to playing football then stats. Most of Gibbs1 QB's would never have stayed in the NFL. Most of his QB's were mediocre and had lower percentages then most of the other top ten teams in the league. Guess who Gibbs1 won SB's with. Guess who out classed, out performed other QB's. Maybe I'm making a case for you but I'm also trying to point out that he could have the best stats and still suck as a QB. No different then being the best QB in the league and having crappy stats.
These things can never, ever happen.
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:09 PM   #193
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

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Originally Posted by SBXVII View Post
DMV, I have agreed with you on many of topics in the past, but honestly I think I found one I can say I disagree with you on.

People say he doesn't have a quick release.
It's not just us fans friend it's Zorn also. He has stated JC needs to get the ball out faster. One would think the designer of the master scheme would know best.
Zorn has also stated he's gotten much better and faster with his release.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBXVII
You can't have a quick release when no one is open.
I actually believe this is Hixon's fault. He's a failure at WR coach.

JC can't read defenses.
I'll believe this until I'm dead. Maybe it's because he's under center and can't survey the field as well but he seems to change into the wrong play way to many times. In shot gun he's not as bad.
Please define "can't read defenses". Typically someone who cannot read defenses throws a high number of interceptions (see Patrick Ramsey) because he's throwing into coverages. How do we know that he changes into the wrong play too many times? If anything, Zorn has praised him for checking into and out of plays when the defense calls for it. His major error was checking to the run on 3rd and 7 vs. NYG but that's one occurence, please cite some others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBXVII
He lead his team to a national championship in college.
I credit him for this. I have supported him all the way up until last week. I am now thinking he never would have been drafted had we not picked him up. If JC and Daniels both came out of the same draft we would have cut JC, I have no doubt. Right now we have too much invested in him to simply cut him.
WHAT?? So a player that was projected to be a low 1st or high 2nd round pick now wouldn't have been drafted AT ALL??? Seriously? C'mon dude, bring a logical premise to the table. The lack of credibility around here with some posts is astounding. It really indicates that some people actually know NOTHING about football.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBXVII
-Thomas drops a TD pass
-Sellers drops a TD pass
-Zorn calls a HB option play
-We try to run the ball in at the goal line on 2 separate occasions
-Moss fumbles in the redzone

I don't think any one would disagree with you on the fact that other players are not doing their part, but that's only half the truth.
-JC over throwing Kelly
-JC throwing a dirt ball to Cooley
-JC over throwing ARE
-JC throwing the ball behind his receivers all the time while in route
-JC waiting for his receivers to get out of their breaks and come to a complete stop before getting the pass off
-etc. etc.
Show me a QB that hasn't over or under thrown multiple over the span of a few games. Campbell has his flaws, mechanics and accuracy are among them, but you have to take the balance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBXVII
Personally I like JC. I think he has a strong arm and can get the ball down field. I'm not sure of his accuracy but he can get the ball down field.

Have any of you known someone who could take a test and ace it? be the #1 person for the job, but when you put them in a real live situation they can't perform? this is how I see JC. I know the whole "stat" issue will be brought up cause everyone likes stat's. Apparently that's the measuring stick around here. but there's more to playing football then stats. Most of Gibbs1 QB's would never have stayed in the NFL. Most of his QB's were mediocre and had lower percentages then most of the other top ten teams in the league. Guess who Gibbs1 won SB's with. Guess who out classed, out performed other QB's. Maybe I'm making a case for you but I'm also trying to point out that he could have the best stats and still suck as a QB. No different then being the best QB in the league and having crappy stats.
Ok, who would you consider to be Campbell's peers in the league? He's not at the level of Manning, Brees, Brady, etc. nor is he at the depth of Russell, Quinn, Leftwich. So who would you compare him to on the same plane?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBXVII
Right now my issue is the team needs a spark. Maybe simply benching a player or two will wake up this team. I know Collins is not the answer. If he was he would be #1 QB right now. but....he does have a quick release, he does know how to get the ball out while the WR is coming out of his break, and if we are going to throw interceptions why not do it with a QB who's doing what he supposed to do with the ball then we can look at the WR's and wonder why they were not in position. Instead of wondering if it's JC's fault, the WR's fault, the O-lines fault, or the HC's fault.

I think we have too many problems as of right now. Motivation is low. Players may be trying too hard. I don't know but when I see Atlanta and Baltimore and Miami bring in new HC's and they do well and all three go into the play offs and we did not I got miffed. This year it was the New Jersey and Detroit, now I'm not saying either will make the play offs but so far the Jets have been putting up more then 20 points in their games and the Lions just kicked our asses on both sides of the ball. I know the points don't show it. This is not Zorn's first yr and we are not supposed to be trying to find an identity at this point. We are supposed to already have it. Yet the other 4 teams look better then us. So yes I'm miffed at everyone not just JC.

I went to sleep last night as happy as a clam thinking how nice it would be to have DS eat some crow and bring in Marty Schottenheimer as GM and Brian Schottenheimer as HC turning our two stud WR's into 1,000 yrd each WR's. Making Mason or Alridge or whoever a 1,000 yrd RB like he has in Jersey the last 2 yrs. I picture an offense that can score at will and a defense that creates 3 and outs constantly with sacks and interceptions. Guess what? I got to sleep fast and had a restfull night.
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:09 PM   #194
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

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Originally Posted by over the mountain View Post
JC played very well against the lions, he played well against the rams and did not play well against the giants.

JC's stats are in line for him to set career marks but lets not ignore JC's past stats and claim the 3 games of stats he has this year (with a huge portion of positive stats coming against the lions, rams and last 2 mins against the giants) should end all talk of JC not being more than a serviceable decent qb.

we can talk stats at the middle or end of the year; it was the lions, the freakin LIONS, and the JC lovers trot his stat sheet out like they have the cure to cancer.

let see how he looks at seasons end and talk stats. taking one or two games now and ignoring his past 20+ games doesnt seem genuine to me is your a stat lover. seems too selective to focus on one segment of numbers (3 games) and one portion of stats and not comparing them to the whole.

if the JC lovers can start this thread as an end all to the qb debate after he looked great against the lions can the JC bashers start a thread calling for his release after he looks crappy against a top 5 defense? i'd say no to both.

i dont understand either party here. he throws 1 td pass = hallelujah i told them guys JC is our man . . . he throws 1 int = gosh dangit this team is going nowhere with JC at the helm.

go skins!!

ps - this comes off as an "i told you so" thread, i dont want to hear any complaining when JC has a bad game and the JC bashers make their own thread.
That was an absoluty brilliant post. I like your objective observations on the whole QB controversy.
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:11 PM   #195
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

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Originally Posted by over the mountain View Post
lol are you going to tell that JC having the 19th best qb rating last year = great qb? seeems about avg to me, even slightly below avg for mathematicians.

or that he ranked 19th last year in pass yds and he played every game/snap versus other qbs who didnt even play every game.

look man, i like JC but i find it annoying that JC lovers trot out his stats after he looked good against the lions and rams and ignore everything else stat related. i can clearly see where the JC bashers are coming from and why they think that way. to question or attack skins fans who dont believe in JC is just being ignorant to a fault by JC lovers.

i say this alot, JC does enough things well and poorly to give both sides ammunition to fire at each other.

go skins!!

ps those 19th ranked qb stats are Jcs best year too, just imagine where he would rank if he totaled up his career stats and compared them.
If you feel there's a statistical angle that reflects negatively on Jason, you should try to bring it up using specific evidence so we can move the thread in an intelligent manner.

If all you're saying is that the statistics say that Jason Campbell, in the Redskins offense, prior to this year has ranked in the 15-20 range among quarterbacks, well, yeah, I'd say that's 100% correct. If you're interpreting that as he can't be trusted with a bigger role, well, please tell us why.
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