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Campbell's numbers dont lie

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Old 09-29-2009, 02:08 PM   #211
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

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Originally Posted by over the mountain View Post
lol maybe thats the problem with this whole JC debate. it seems most of us (me included) think JC is a good qb, not great but good. somehow we are dividing ourselves by exagerating what other posters are saying.

could he become great? im not sure as i fall into the category of fans who think he doesnt read D schemes well pre-snap which i think is a necessary requirement to be a great qb like manning or brady. imo JC looks best when his first option is open. if zorn doesnt call the perfect play and JCs first option is covered, our best bet is to have JC check down to cooley. while i like JC i would like to have a qb that can know where to go with the ball if his 1st option is covered, a lil better anticipation of how the play is going to unfold.

lol half this board accuses the other side of saying JC oozes greatness, the other half accuses the other side of saying JC is the worst qb of all time. but in reality, most of us think JC is good and he is our best option this year.

go skins!!
As a JC 'lover' I think his peak is a top 12-15 QB. I don't see him ever being a Manning, Brady, Brees. With a strong OL, good RB/WR and decent play calling that should be enough to keep us in every game.
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Old 09-29-2009, 02:08 PM   #212
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

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Originally Posted by SBXVII View Post
Also keep in mind Eli Manning was considered to be an idiot by many until he led the team to the SB. Now he seems like a genius.
Yeah. The Giants were more competitive than us leading up to that super bowl season, but it's not unreasonable to think the talent this team has could carry the day in the playoffs.

If we're not in the playoffs at all, it's a good indication that the long-term aspects of the franchise just aren't working. Also a good indicator: losing to the Lions.
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Old 09-29-2009, 02:09 PM   #213
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

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As a JC 'lover' I think his peak is a top 12-15 QB. I don't see him ever being a Manning, Brady, Brees. With a strong OL, good RB/WR and decent play calling that should be enough to keep us in every game.
I'd argue that he's already keeping us in every game.
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Old 09-29-2009, 02:10 PM   #214
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

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All I think you need to realize is that: just because we're losing on the scoreboard and not putting up points, doesn't necessarily mean that the passing game isn't working for us. If the passing game truly isn't working, the numbers will support that. I promise.
Ok, then I don't know what I'm talking about. I look at other teams...including Detroit Sun. and see teams making it look easy getting the ball off to their receivers. Why does it seem like we are fighting mother nature to get ours the ball? Other then Moss's catch Sun. It's looked like all dink and dunk. Yes the stats look good but that was the only time our WR's seemed to be wide open with no defender within 5 yrds ready to tackle them. Why?
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Old 09-29-2009, 02:14 PM   #215
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

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Ok, then I don't know what I'm talking about. I look at other teams...including Detroit Sun. and see teams making it look easy getting the ball off to their receivers. Why does it seem like we are fighting mother nature to get ours the ball? Other then Moss's catch Sun. It's looked like all dink and dunk. Yes the stats look good but that was the only time our WR's seemed to be wide open with no defender within 5 yrds ready to tackle them. Why?
Does it really seem like that to you? Even anecdotally, the intended receiver on more or less every Campbell pass seems to be wide open (about three forced throws not-withstanding). As for like, wide, wide open, if you can get that even once a game (which we did) you're doing well for yourself.

Part of the problem is that we don't have the ball very long because 1) we're not a quick strike offense, and 2) our defense takes 6 or 7 minutes to get off the field every time. So there's not a whole lot of passes we can waste on deep shots. We don't have the margin of error to not score touchdowns in the red zone. The solution is the same as the rest of the field: score on first or second down. Don't wait for third down when the receivers can be blanketed.
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Old 09-29-2009, 02:14 PM   #216
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

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Pain,

Zorn has also stated he's gotten much better and faster with his release
I thought Zorn commented on this after the Rams game also. Yes the release is faster but I don't think it's where Zorn would like it. but I still think the WR issue's go hand in hand with JC's issues. Maybe bringing in a qualified WR coach would make JC look outstanding.

Please define "can't read defenses". Typically someone who cannot read defenses throws a high number of interceptions (see Patrick Ramsey) because he's throwing into coverages. How do we know that he changes into the wrong play too many times? If anything, Zorn has praised him for checking into and out of plays when the defense calls for it. His major error was checking to the run on 3rd and 7 vs. NYG but that's one occurence, please cite some others.
Maybe I am an idiot. I don't know if he's changing into the wrong play too many time. You are correct. I'll retract my statement, but it's my feelings when after you see a change at the line and the play fails then the camera pans to Zorn fuming on the sideline....just my observation. As to reading defenses, again just my feelings/observations since he's been with the organization. He fails to pick up the rush or where it's coming from. Fails to change into a more productive play call perhaps a quick slant (like those other top QB's you named) or move to the shot gun to buy more time.

WHAT?? So a player that was projected to be a low 1st or high 2nd round pick now wouldn't have been drafted AT ALL???
I didn't know he was projected so high. Hmm. I might have to change my way of thinking.

Show me a QB that hasn't over or under thrown multiple over the span of a few games. Campbell has his flaws, mechanics and accuracy are among them, but you have to take the balance.
I agree with you here. Other have over thrown their receivers. I just wonder why after 5 yrs with Moss, 4 with ARE, 1 with Thomas and Kelly he can't be more on the money with his passes. Even Cooley, who is his favorite receiver has to grab the ball from behind or make finger tip grabbs all the time. Why can't the ball be placed so the receivers can continue with their flow of running their routes? It seems most of his passes that are connecting are passes where the receiver sat down into a zone and waited for the ball.

Ok, who would you consider to be Campbell's peers in the league? He's not at the level of Manning, Brees, Brady, etc. nor is he at the depth of Russell, Quinn, Leftwich. So who would you compare him to on the same plane?
This is obviously where one must use stats. Go look for your self but I'm guessing Cutler would be one. I don't see Cutler as being anything special either. Since you brought up the other names though ...they were first round drafts...no different then JC. Yet you are saying he's not in their league.
Well actually only Manning (of the successful QB I noted) was a 1st round pick but Russell, Quinn and Leftwich were all 1st round picks and all picked higher than Campbell.
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Old 09-29-2009, 03:13 PM   #217
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

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You're obviously NOT watching the games very closely. He is playing very well...unlike most of the team.
Campbell may be playing ok (and great based on stats alone), but he's sure not making any plays to win games - and he sure has made plays that have contributed to losses.

I try to be objective as possible but I know one opinion that I strongly believe in is- a great qb is the start of a great team, a bad qb is the start of a bad team, and an average qb is the start of an average team. The redskins team is a bad team and it starts with campbell as a player.

And I am pretty sure with better qb play - the redskins would be 3-0 instead of 1-2.
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Old 09-29-2009, 03:15 PM   #218
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

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Originally Posted by warriorzpath View Post
Campbell may be playing ok (and great based on stats alone), but he's sure not making any plays to win games - and he sure has made plays that have contributed to losses.

I try to be objective as possible but I know one opinion that I strongly believe in is- a great qb is the start of a great team, a bad qb is the start of a bad team, and an average qb is the start of an average team. The redskins team is a bad team and it starts with campbell as a player.

And I am pretty sure with better qb play - the redskins would be 3-0 instead of 1-2.
Sure, with Peyton Manning maybe.

You could also say with a better defense we could be 3-0 or 2-1.
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Old 09-29-2009, 03:21 PM   #219
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

In order to win consistently in the NFL, the qb needs to be able to make plays to win the game, especially in close games. Campbell just doesn't make plays to win the game. If Campbell makes the plays in the Giants and Lions games instead of making mistakes, the redskins could easily be 3-0 and the attitude towards and of the team would be way different. That's the difference and impact that a few plays from the qb would make for a whole team and season.
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Old 09-29-2009, 03:23 PM   #220
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

JC is the man. You got to have faith i refused to say the season is over, we will right the boat and alot of people will be eating crow. I'm a die hard fan and we will make the playoffs.

HTTR.
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Old 09-29-2009, 03:27 PM   #221
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

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Every thread someone is calling for campbell to be benched but his numbers are great.
1. Rating: 92.5 Higher than Brady, Big Ben, C. Palmer, Cutler, and Rivers
2. 9th in passing yards: More that Rodgers, Ryan, Palmer, E. Manning, & Cutler
3. 5th in the Comp. Percent. 67.6%: Higher than everyone in the league except P. Manning, Brees, Big Ben, and Chad Penn.

So what else does he have to do to be considered a good QB. The Skins have a good QB, just bad playcalling, no running game, and no O-line. Get off campbell's back. He is doing more with less better than anyone in the NFL. Check the stats the STATS don't lie!
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Old 09-29-2009, 03:28 PM   #222
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

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Sure, with Peyton Manning maybe.

You could also say with a better defense we could be 3-0 or 2-1.
Sure it's not all on campbell, but redskins needs the qb to make plays to win the game.

He's not going to be Manning, but he needs to make plays to win games, not lose them. The stats don't matter if you don't make the plays and also make mistakes at crucial times.
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Old 09-29-2009, 03:34 PM   #223
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

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Sure, with Peyton Manning maybe.

You could also say with a better defense we could be 3-0 or 2-1.
ive been thinking alot lately about the best approach to building a winning franchise after reading some of the lions fans forums. they seem pretty split on the two major approaches:

1) try to get lucky and get yourself a franchise qb in the draft.

or

2) build thru the trenches and draft to have a solid deep team in which you only need a decent/good qb

i am not the right person nor knowledgeable enough to put together a thread worth discussing but i do find it real interesting. either way has pros - cons. a great qb makes his line, recievers and coaches look better and it only takes perfect draft pick. but (imo) its easier to evaluate O line and D players in the draft than it is to land that special qb who only comes around once every few years. i would argue matt ryan was the one last year with flacco looking great under cameron.

lol you see im already all over the place in my thoughts.

does anyone know any real informative, history based intensive sports article regarding the best philosophy to build a winning franchise? has bill parcells written a book yet lol?

i should probably just google.

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Old 09-29-2009, 03:34 PM   #224
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

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A great qb is the start of a great team, a bad qb is the start of a bad team, and an average qb is the start of an average team. The redskins team is a bad team and it starts with campbell as a player.

And I am pretty sure with better qb play - the redskins would be 3-0 instead of 1-2.
I completely disagree. Teams are built on the offensive and defensive lines. A great offensive line can make an average to below average quarterback look amazing(Rypien, Doug Williams, Matt Hasselbeck, etc.), and bad offensive lines can make even elite quarterbacks look average or worse.

Plenty of teams have had elite quarterback play and have still been average to bad. The Saints of 2007 were 7-9 with Drew Brees. The Packers went 6-10 last season with Aaron Rogers.

I agree that if you put Peyton Manning on this team, it may be worth a few extra wins, but the biggest problem with Washington is absolutely not the quarterback.
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Old 09-29-2009, 03:44 PM   #225
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Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie

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I completely disagree. Teams are built on the offensive and defensive lines. A great offensive line can make an average to below average quarterback look amazing(Rypien, Doug Williams, Matt Hasselbeck, etc.), and bad offensive lines can make even elite quarterbacks look average or worse.

Plenty of teams have had elite quarterback play and have still been average to bad. The Saints of 2007 were 7-9 with Drew Brees. The Packers went 6-10 last season with Aaron Rogers.

I agree that if you put Peyton Manning on this team, it may be worth a few extra wins, but the biggest problem with Washington is absolutely not the quarterback.
Hasselbeck is legit and Brees and Rodgers were victims of poor Defenses, but I don't necessarily disagree with your point that a great Offensive line can make an average QB look good and a good QB look great, etc. And a QB who has all day to throw can make average Receivers look good, etc. Even more evidence that picking 3 Receivers in the 2nd round was stupid. Who was Brady throwing to again when he won 3 Super Bowls? Branch and Gaffney? Skill positions don't mean jack.

I've said time and time again that I think Campbell could take a team like the Titans of last year deep into the playoffs. I just don't think he's good enough to overcome deficiencies in other parts of the Offense. If everything else is perfect (Elite O line, Elite Defense, Dominant Running Game), I don't see any reason Campbell couldn't win a Super Bowl like Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer did. Of course, both went on to become back-ups, but at least they got their ring.
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