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Old 12-03-2009, 12:41 PM   #451
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Re: Our next coach??

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Originally Posted by Mattyk72 View Post
And a .500 record over his last 3 seasons is what got Shanahan fired.

The more I think about Shanahan running things the less I like the idea. I just think we could be in for more of the same like we have with Vinny.
We'll agree to disagree then. To me, Vinny is as close to Shanahan as a '77 Pinto is to an '09 Lexus.
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Old 12-03-2009, 12:43 PM   #452
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Re: Our next coach??

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Originally Posted by SmootSmack View Post
I don't have a huge problem with Shanahan as the head coach. He's very creative and a good offensive mind. Though for all his genius, I would have expected more dominance in the AFC West from him.

But he tends to rotate defensive coaches with relative ease, which ruins continuity on that side. And he's made some very poor personnel decisions both through the draft and free agency-Clarett, Willie Middlebrooks, Courtney Brown, Dale Carter, Quentin Griffin, Leon Lett, Eddie Kennison and so on.

It's easy to sit here and say that Cerrato is the worst personnel man in the league, but upon closer inspection it's hard to say that replacing him Shanahan is a marked improvement.
If you're just talking about improvement in talent evaluation/personnel decisioning skills, then i'd agree with you. I'd even argue that Cerrato is better. However, the problem with Cerrato is that he is essentially a puppet to Snyder and allows Snyder to be involved in the decision-making process. Due to their friendship, that will never change. Cerrato will never tell Snyder no. The same won't be true with someone from the outside.

While Shanahan is not my first choice, if I had to chose between him and Cerrato, i'd chose Shanahan, if for no other reason that it would eliminate Snyder from the equation (other than signing checks of course).
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Old 12-03-2009, 12:51 PM   #453
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Re: Our next coach??

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Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat View Post
the problem is, what you want is EXACTLY what Snyder did with Zorn. How's that worked out for us?
That's not necessarily true, Zorn was hired as an OC and when Danny couldn't land Spagnola and others, so he promoted Zorn to HC.
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Old 12-03-2009, 01:03 PM   #454
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Re: Our next coach??

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That's not necessarily true, Zorn was hired as an OC and when Danny couldn't land Spagnola and others, so he promoted Zorn to HC.
He hired an unknown and unknowns are more likely to be busts than successes. Unless you think Spagnola is the next Joe Gibbs.
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Old 12-03-2009, 01:21 PM   #455
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Re: Our next coach??

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Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat View Post
If you're just talking about improvement in talent evaluation/personnel decisioning skills, then i'd agree with you. I'd even argue that Cerrato is better. However, the problem with Cerrato is that he is essentially a puppet to Snyder and allows Snyder to be involved in the decision-making process. Due to their friendship, that will never change. Cerrato will never tell Snyder no. The same won't be true with someone from the outside.

While Shanahan is not my first choice, if I had to chose between him and Cerrato, i'd chose Cerrato, if for no other reason that it would eliminate Snyder from the equation (other than signing checks of course).
Did you mean to say you'd choose Shanahan. Either way, I don't think even Shanahan is going to significantly change Snyder's input. I mean it's not like Snyder stepped in when Cerrato decided he couldn't work with Williams or Fassel or when Cerrato said I'm bringing in Sherman Lewis.

Cerrato needs to go more than anything to give the perception that changes are being made.
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Old 12-03-2009, 01:36 PM   #456
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Re: Our next coach??

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Originally Posted by SmootSmack View Post
Did you mean to say you'd choose Shanahan. Either way, I don't think even Shanahan is going to significantly change Snyder's input. I mean it's not like Snyder stepped in when Cerrato decided he couldn't work with Williams or Fassel or when Cerrato said I'm bringing in Sherman Lewis.

Cerrato needs to go more than anything to give the perception that changes are being made.
Yeah i did, thanks for pointing that out - i guess i'm not very good at multi-tasking...

I agree that perception is a big issue here - what fans want is a Head Coach and GM (whether one person or two) who are "bigger" than Snyder. Frankly, the fans need to feel that the franchise is being run by someone who a) demands immediate respect and b) knows what theyre doing.

Regarding Snyder, I think his involvement mainly relates to offseason player acquisition issues. I think Haynesworth was a great addition to the team, and his impact has been significant, but I don't beleive that Snyder didn't have any input there. I also would be shocked to learn if Snyder wasn't the primary force in pushing to acquire Cutler and Sanchez in the offseason. And do you really think the current playcalling situation is all of Cerrato's devising? Cerrato may have been the one to suggest Sherm specifically, but I fully beleive that he was brought in in an attempt to get Zorn to quit (after Snyders attempts to lure Shanahan [and possibly Gruden and others as well] had failed. A neutral GM wouldnt give a crap about trying to save the owner money by trying to force a coach to resign instead of being terminated (with pay).

I honestly think Cerrato would be fairly good at his job somewhere else - he just either doesnt have the balls or authority to tell snyder to stay out of his way here. I seriously doubt that anyone from the outside (who doesnt play racquetball or go on skiing vacations with the owner would have the same reservations.
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Old 12-03-2009, 01:43 PM   #457
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Re: Our next coach??

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Yeah i did, thanks for pointing that out - i guess i'm not very good at multi-tasking...

I agree that perception is a big issue here - what fans want is a Head Coach and GM (whether one person or two) who are "bigger" than Snyder. Frankly, the fans need to feel that the franchise is being run by someone who a) demands immediate respect and b) knows what theyre doing.

Regarding Snyder, I think his involvement mainly relates to offseason player acquisition issues. I think Haynesworth was a great addition to the team, and his impact has been significant, but I don't beleive that Snyder didn't have any input there. I also would be shocked to learn if Snyder wasn't the primary force in pushing to acquire Cutler and Sanchez in the offseason. And do you really think the current playcalling situation is all of Cerrato's devising? Cerrato may have been the one to suggest Sherm specifically, but I fully beleive that he was brought in in an attempt to get Zorn to quit (after Snyders attempts to lure Shanahan [and possibly Gruden and others as well] had failed. A neutral GM wouldnt give a crap about trying to save the owner money by trying to force a coach to resign instead of being terminated (with pay).

I honestly think Cerrato would be fairly good at his job somewhere else - he just either doesnt have the balls or authority to tell snyder to stay out of his way here. I seriously doubt that anyone from the outside (who doesnt play racquetball or go on skiing vacations with the owner would have the same reservations.
I see your point overall, but it's the owner's team. Better said, it's the owner's business. There really can't be any such thing as a neutral GM. It's the owner's money he's playing with and it's the owner he reports to. No General Manager is going to act without input, sometimes significant input from the owner (or owners). It's like any business. It's the case throughout the league. Some owners may not be as in the public eye as Snyder so it may not appear to be that way, but that's how it is. As I've said before, the only owner I've ever heard that's really entirely hands off is Paul Allen. But even he steps in when it comes to organizational changes.
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Old 12-03-2009, 01:58 PM   #458
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Re: Our next coach??

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I see your point overall, but it's the owner's team. Better said, it's the owner's business. There really can't be any such thing as a neutral GM. It's the owner's money he's playing with and it's the owner he reports to. No General Manager is going to act without input, sometimes significant input from the owner (or owners). It's like any business. It's the case throughout the league. Some owners may not be as in the public eye as Snyder so it may not appear to be that way, but that's how it is. As I've said before, the only owner I've ever heard that's really entirely hands off is Paul Allen. But even he steps in when it comes to organizational changes.
You make a good point; although I just can't see Snyder exherting as much control with someone other than Cerrato - he just seems like too much of a "Yes, man." Perhaps Snyder is the type of guy that won't take no for an answer and insists on having "final say" on everything. If thats the case, then were just screwed. However, I'd like to think Cerrato is more of an "enabler" to Snyder and is allowing and relying on his input too much. Conversely, someone from the outside wouldnt solicit his involvement as much. Further, if we had a "big name" in house, someone Snyder respected (and preferably Snyder would be somewhat intimidated by [i.e. Bill Cowher]), then perhaps Snyder would be less inclined to say, "Get me [insert biggest name of the off-season]" every year.
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Old 12-03-2009, 02:09 PM   #459
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Re: Our next coach??

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Originally Posted by Mattyk72 View Post
And a .500 record over his last 3 seasons is what got Shanahan fired.

The more I think about Shanahan running things the less I like the idea. I just think we could be in for more of the same like we have with Vinny.
Interesting thought: what would Shanahan's last three years have looked like if he didn't have Gibbs/Snyder/Cerrato to frontload him talent? Like, if Champ goes elsewhere, and they don't get the Campbell choice in 2006 to trade up and get Cutler, and also they don't get the Marshall pick.

Would Shanny have even made it to 2008?
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Old 12-03-2009, 02:18 PM   #460
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Re: Our next coach??

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We'll agree to disagree then. To me, Vinny is as close to Shanahan as a '77 Pinto is to an '09 Lexus.
Check into Shanahan's draft misses and get back to me. I don't think the difference between the two is as great as you think.
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Old 12-03-2009, 02:48 PM   #461
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Re: Our next coach??

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Interesting thought: what would Shanahan's last three years have looked like if he didn't have Gibbs/Snyder/Cerrato to frontload him talent? Like, if Champ goes elsewhere, and they don't get the Campbell choice in 2006 to trade up and get Cutler, and also they don't get the Marshall pick.

Would Shanny have even made it to 2008?
Did they pick Marshall w/the 4th that we gave them in the JC deal or was it their pick?
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Old 12-03-2009, 02:48 PM   #462
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Re: Our next coach??

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Did they pick Marshall w/the 4th that we gave them in the JC deal or was it their pick?
It was our fourth, I believe, but I can't confirm this.
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Old 12-03-2009, 02:51 PM   #463
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Re: Our next coach??

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Check into Shanahan's draft misses and get back to me. I don't think the difference between the two is as great as you think.
I agree, plus Shanahan w/his owners support, was into getting big name pricey free agents just like Snyder et al. Denver's payroll has been close to ours in many years this decade.

Plus, pick for pick Vinny isn't bad IMO, especially if the class of 08 continues to improve. It's the broader decisions that bother me, like deciding a west coast O is needed before a coach is hired.
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Old 12-03-2009, 02:57 PM   #464
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Re: Our next coach??

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Check into Shanahan's draft misses and get back to me. I don't think the difference between the two is as great as you think.
i thought that shanahan was the gm for awhile with the broncos but it seems a guy named lundquist (sp?) was the gm from 2002 to 2008.
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Old 12-03-2009, 03:07 PM   #465
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Re: Our next coach??

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Check into Shanahan's draft misses and get back to me. I don't think the difference between the two is as great as you think.
Check out the 2007 draft. Not bad.

111Jay Cutler QBVanderbilt261Tony Scheffler TEWestern Michigan4119Brandon Marshall WRCentral Florida4126Elvis Dumervil DELouisville4130Domenik Hixon WRAkron

It's hard to evaluate all of his drafts, since I don't know their roster up and down. I do know they have always had young talented players on offense and defense. Cutler (in Denver) lit it up. The guy can play. Their offensive line has always been very good. They could essentially plug in any moderately talented RB and he's a star in Denver. Cutler, B Marshall, OL-men, E Royal, Sheffler, DJ Williams, Dumervil, etc. Shanahan drafted some good talent.

To compare him and Vinny you have to look at the whole thing though. If you just want to compare drafts, I can't imagine VC has drafted better than the Broncos. It's also hard b/c you don't know who VC actually picked. Sounds like JG's picked ST, Cooley, and some others. Who knows though? Right now, right this second it looks like the only impact player that we can be sure VC drafted is Orakpo. Of course thats only a 2 yr sample though.
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