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Old 12-03-2009, 03:12 PM   #466
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Re: Our next coach??

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Originally Posted by Mattyk72 View Post
Check into Shanahan's draft misses and get back to me. I don't think the difference between the two is as great as you think.
For one thing, it wouldn't be a good comparison because Shanahan has had so many more picks than we have.

How about we compare overall records over the last ten years and you get back to me?
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Old 12-03-2009, 03:15 PM   #467
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Re: Our next coach??

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Originally Posted by freddyg12 View Post
I agree, plus Shanahan w/his owners support, was into getting big name pricey free agents just like Snyder et al. Denver's payroll has been close to ours in many years this decade.

Plus, pick for pick Vinny isn't bad IMO, especially if the class of 08 continues to improve. It's the broader decisions that bother me, like deciding a west coast O is needed before a coach is hired.
I agree with you 100% and those broader decisions are, in my opinion, evidence of Cerrato dutifully carrying Snyder's orders, without "pushing back" the way most other GMs would. If Cerrato gets the axe here and has opportunity to take a GM job elsewhere, I hope he takes it (as opposed to staying on here in some reduced role).
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Old 12-03-2009, 03:19 PM   #468
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Re: Our next coach??

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Originally Posted by Beemnseven View Post
For one thing, it wouldn't be a good comparison because Shanahan has had so many more picks than we have.

How about we compare overall records over the last ten years and you get back to me?
I've got no problem with Shanahan the head coach, but as a talent evaluator (especially on D) teamed up with Snyder, I just can't buy that we would be that much better off than we are now.
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Old 12-03-2009, 03:21 PM   #469
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Re: Our next coach??

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Originally Posted by redsk1 View Post
Check out the 2007 draft. Not bad.

111Jay Cutler QBVanderbilt261Tony Scheffler TEWestern Michigan4119Brandon Marshall WRCentral Florida4126Elvis Dumervil DELouisville4130Domenik Hixon WRAkron

It's hard to evaluate all of his drafts, since I don't know their roster up and down. I do know they have always had young talented players on offense and defense. Cutler (in Denver) lit it up. The guy can play. Their offensive line has always been very good. They could essentially plug in any moderately talented RB and he's a star in Denver. Cutler, B Marshall, OL-men, E Royal, Sheffler, DJ Williams, Dumervil, etc. Shanahan drafted some good talent.

To compare him and Vinny you have to look at the whole thing though. If you just want to compare drafts, I can't imagine VC has drafted better than the Broncos. It's also hard b/c you don't know who VC actually picked. Sounds like JG's picked ST, Cooley, and some others. Who knows though? Right now, right this second it looks like the only impact player that we can be sure VC drafted is Orakpo. Of course thats only a 2 yr sample though.
we also have to keep in mind that the only reason we drafted orakpo is the jets were able to offer more in a deal to trade up and select sanchez. Orakpo was Plan B (or Plan C if you beleive that, despite Cerrato's claims to the contrary, we weren't offering our 2009 1st rounder in a package to land Cutler). Orakpo was a no-brainer pick at 13 this year. Don't get me wrong - I like Cerrato and think he's an average judge of talent, but its not like drafting orakpo was some brilliant stroke of genius on his part.
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Old 12-03-2009, 03:30 PM   #470
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Re: Our next coach??

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Originally Posted by Mattyk72 View Post
I've got no problem with Shanahan the head coach, but as a talent evaluator (especially on D) teamed up with Snyder, I just can't buy that we would be that much better off than we are now.
I think the key to getting this team turned around, no matter who the coach and GM are, is that Snyder can't be pulling the strings. He certainly can say who he will and won't spend money on (e.g. "If you want Player X, I'll pay whatever I have to to get him here," or "I don't want this guy at all" or even, "I need you to sign one big name guy in free agency, the draft, or by executing a trade, because I need to sell tickets/jerseys/whatever, etc.) - but thats it. Beyond that, he needs to let the coach and GM do the jobs he's paying them to do. If that doesn't happen, then things around here simply arent going to change.

The irony here is that if Snyder actually hires the right coach and the right GM, and this team becomes a perennial contender, then the team will have enough young talent and enough draft picks to "afford" allowing him to "meddle" and hand-pick a player or two that he wants on the roster without destroying the whole thing. unfortunately, when a team is this thin on depth, talent, and character, it simply cant afford to make any mistakes.
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Old 12-03-2009, 03:30 PM   #471
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Re: Our next coach??

It looks like I'm quickly becoming the chairman of the committee to hire Mike Shanahan, so, as such, here's a list of his accomplishments to chew on for those that aren't convinced.

Accomplishments
  • Posted the most wins in pro football history during a three-year period (46 in 199698).
  • Won the most postseason games in history over a two-year period (seven, 199798).
  • Been undefeated and untied for three consecutive regular seasons (199698) at home, just the second team ever to be undefeated and untied at home in three consecutive years. The Miami Dolphins posted three consecutive seasons of untied undefeated home records from 1972 to 1974. Including playoff games, the Dolphins had won 31 consecutive home games from 1971 to 1974. Oddly enough, in 1999 on the opening Monday Night Football game, the Miami Dolphins ended the defending Super Bowl champion Denver Broncos streak with a 3821 win in Denver.
  • In 2004, he joined the exclusive club of head coaches to post 100 wins in his first 10 seasons with one club, finishing the campaign and decade tied for fourth on this ultra-impressive list of 12 coaches, six of whom are enshrined in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
  • Has the second most victories against the Oakland Raiders with a record of 217. Only Marty Schottenheimer has a better WL record with a 276 record against the Raiders.
  • Joins Vince Lombardi, Don Shula, Chuck Noll, Jimmy Johnson and Bill Belichick as the only six coaches to win back-to-back Super Bowls.
  • He is the second coach in history to win two Super Bowl titles in his first four years coaching a team (Shula did it first with the Miami Dolphins in 1972 and 1973 and Belichick did it later, winning two Super Bowls in his first four seasons in New England in 2001 and 2003).
  • Highest winning percentage in Denver history (.646).
  • Shanahan is among seven coaches in pro football history to post four wins in one postseason along with Tom Flores, Joe Gibbs, Brian Billick, Bill Cowher, Tony Dungy and Tom Coughlin.
  • The all-time high of 636 points in a season came from the 1994 Super Bowl Champion San Francisco 49ers, for whom Shanahan was the offensive coordinator. This was eclipsed during the 2007 season when the New England Patriots scored 589 points in the regular season and 66 points in the postseason for a total of 655 points.
  • During his NFL career, Shanahan has been a part of teams that have played in 10 Conference Championship Games, in addition to his six Super Bowl appearances, five with Denver and Super Bowl XXIX with San Francisco.

I know there are skeptics when it comes to Shanahan as a personnel evaluator. Since he basically had control over this area in Denver, though not the actual title of GM, I maintain that his success with the Broncos couldn't have been possible if he's as awful a personnel decision-maker as some seem to believe.
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Old 12-03-2009, 03:32 PM   #472
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Re: Our next coach??

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Originally Posted by over the mountain View Post
i thought that shanahan was the gm for awhile with the broncos but it seems a guy named lundquist (sp?) was the gm from 2002 to 2008.
I think it was Sundquist, not Lundquist. But, to my earlier point, he (like Heckert in Philadelphia) was really just the GM in name only.

I mean that's not to discredit Sundquist, who is apparently highly regarded, or the work he put in. Just that Shanahan had final say.
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Old 12-03-2009, 03:54 PM   #473
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Re: Our next coach??

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Originally Posted by Beemnseven View Post
I know there are skeptics when it comes to Shanahan as a personnel evaluator. Since he basically had control over this area in Denver, though not the actual title of GM, I maintain that his success with the Broncos couldn't have been possible if he's as awful a personnel decision-maker as some seem to believe.
Here's what also know. His teams were pretty pedestrian his last few years there when the personnel was his and his only. He won superbowls with a HOF QB he didn't pick and a stud RB. He also had Gary Kubiak and Alex Gibb coaching his offense. On top of that his defenses were decent but not out of this world. I don't think there is a lot on his resume that screams "He is the guy to fix this team". He basically took an already successful team and pushed them over the top for a few years by adding a good RB. Once that formula dried up due to age he didn't duplicate it. It was downhill from there.
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Old 12-03-2009, 04:16 PM   #474
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Re: Our next coach??

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Originally Posted by SmootSmack View Post
I think it was Sundquist, not Lundquist. But, to my earlier point, he (like Heckert in Philadelphia) was really just the GM in name only.

I mean that's not to discredit Sundquist, who is apparently highly regarded, or the work he put in. Just that Shanahan had final say.
Well, ultimately, we'd have to know when Shanahan went against Sundquist and how it turned out to to know whether or not Shanahan really messed up by excercising his right of final say. Really, these decisions should all be somewhat collaborative anyways.
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Old 12-03-2009, 06:51 PM   #475
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Re: Our next coach??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemnseven View Post
It looks like I'm quickly becoming the chairman of the committee to hire Mike Shanahan, so, as such, here's a list of his accomplishments to chew on for those that aren't convinced.

Accomplishments
  • Posted the most wins in pro football history during a three-year period (46 in 199698).
  • Won the most postseason games in history over a two-year period (seven, 199798).
  • Been undefeated and untied for three consecutive regular seasons (199698) at home, just the second team ever to be undefeated and untied at home in three consecutive years. The Miami Dolphins posted three consecutive seasons of untied undefeated home records from 1972 to 1974. Including playoff games, the Dolphins had won 31 consecutive home games from 1971 to 1974. Oddly enough, in 1999 on the opening Monday Night Football game, the Miami Dolphins ended the defending Super Bowl champion Denver Broncos streak with a 3821 win in Denver.
  • In 2004, he joined the exclusive club of head coaches to post 100 wins in his first 10 seasons with one club, finishing the campaign and decade tied for fourth on this ultra-impressive list of 12 coaches, six of whom are enshrined in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
  • Has the second most victories against the Oakland Raiders with a record of 217. Only Marty Schottenheimer has a better WL record with a 276 record against the Raiders.
  • Joins Vince Lombardi, Don Shula, Chuck Noll, Jimmy Johnson and Bill Belichick as the only six coaches to win back-to-back Super Bowls.
  • He is the second coach in history to win two Super Bowl titles in his first four years coaching a team (Shula did it first with the Miami Dolphins in 1972 and 1973 and Belichick did it later, winning two Super Bowls in his first four seasons in New England in 2001 and 2003).
  • Highest winning percentage in Denver history (.646).
  • Shanahan is among seven coaches in pro football history to post four wins in one postseason along with Tom Flores, Joe Gibbs, Brian Billick, Bill Cowher, Tony Dungy and Tom Coughlin.
  • The all-time high of 636 points in a season came from the 1994 Super Bowl Champion San Francisco 49ers, for whom Shanahan was the offensive coordinator. This was eclipsed during the 2007 season when the New England Patriots scored 589 points in the regular season and 66 points in the postseason for a total of 655 points.
  • During his NFL career, Shanahan has been a part of teams that have played in 10 Conference Championship Games, in addition to his six Super Bowl appearances, five with Denver and Super Bowl XXIX with San Francisco.

I know there are skeptics when it comes to Shanahan as a personnel evaluator. Since he basically had control over this area in Denver, though not the actual title of GM, I maintain that his success with the Broncos couldn't have been possible if he's as awful a personnel decision-maker as some seem to believe.
Most of those accomplishments were in the '90s and Elway was the QB. Post-Elway his accomplishments are much thinner.
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Bruce Allen when in charge alone: 4-12 (.250)
Bruce Allen's overall Redskins record : 28-52 (.350)
Vinny Cerrato's record when in charge alone: 52-65 (.444)
Vinny's overall Redskins record: 62-82 (.430)
We won more with Vinny
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Old 12-03-2009, 07:55 PM   #476
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Re: Our next coach??

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Originally Posted by Beemnseven View Post
For one thing, it wouldn't be a good comparison because Shanahan has had so many more picks than we have.

How about we compare overall records over the last ten years and you get back to me?
The point that he has had alot more picks sais ALOT right there. Oh yeah, the winning thing too.
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Old 12-03-2009, 08:22 PM   #477
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Re: Our next coach??

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Most of those accomplishments were in the '90s and Elway was the QB. Post-Elway his accomplishments are much thinner.
That's what I always think when I think Shanahan. Gibbs won SB's with 3 different QB's.
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:19 PM   #478
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Re: Our next coach??

how many of you believe in a shannahan HC, Sherm Lewis OC combination? In this scenario the deal has already been done and although Mike denied taking the HC job during the season, but he did tell them to hire Lewis as a "consultant" that will convert to OC with him next season.
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:50 PM   #479
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Re: Our next coach??

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Originally Posted by diehardskin2982 View Post
how many of you believe in a shannahan HC, Sherm Lewis OC combination? In this scenario the deal has already been done and although Mike denied taking the HC job during the season, but he did tell them to hire Lewis as a "consultant" that will convert to OC with him next season.
Well it was Steve Mariucci that suggested the Lewis hiring
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Old 12-03-2009, 10:11 PM   #480
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Re: Our next coach??

Call me crazy: I think Zorn should stay HC and be able to draft his own qb like so many other coaches get to do--- the coined term "his guy". If we keep Lewis who has our offense not looking so bad, we've got our 3rd year in the same system, same coach, more developed players (davis, kelly, thomas, rhinehart). We draft qb and o line, and i feel more confident in that than starting fresh again. we should let zorn continue to build his staff.

im basically saying this because I don't like shanahan. he only accomplished what he did because of davis and elway. Broncos were good at best in his tenure otherwise.
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