The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules

CRedskinsRule · 12-19-2009, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

So the minority candidate, who otherwise would traditionally be overlooked, would have the chance to at least interview. I don't understand why people are so bothered by this. Actually, I would further this Rule by adding that all teams have a bona fide search process, to get all young execs and coaches in the interview pool and at least the opportunity to go through interviews.

I guess I am slow, but I will confess this statement struck a chord, it is very possible (maybe not with DS but I will use him as an example) that DS interviews, and likes Jerry Gray, now having interviewed him, at the next owners meeting if JJ asks DS what he thinks of JG r if he had any good interviews, then JGs name starts to circulate, now that type of conversation has always happened, and if the rooney rule broadens that pool of table talk candidates, than that does make a difference.

that said its still a rule and not armageddon, or arab-israeli peace.

WaldSkins · 12-19-2009, 12:30 AM

I could care less either way

GTripp0012 · 12-19-2009, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMScud

I think the Rooney Rule is so stupid. Hire the best man for the job. Head coaches both black and white have proven they can coach at a high level and win Super Bowls. If a team has their sights set on a coach who happens to be white, why go through the motions of interviewing a minority candidate just for the sake of it? It's wasting the time of both parties.

Hire the best man for the job. Who gives a crap what his skins color is. There are several very solid black head coaches in the league and dozens more assistants.

Well, let's say that Dan Snyder offered to interview YOU for the job of General Manager of the Washington Redskins, but you knew full well that the team was pretty locked in on Bruce Allen. But again, for whatever reason, you were offered a real opportunity to go interview for your dream position.

Would you decline the offer? You're perfectly within your rights to do so, but I'd think you'd probably go do it. And that's even if you knew that you weren't going to get the position because you don't fit Dan Snyder's vision of a general manager.

Your argument re: Rooney Rule takes the position that it's stupid he would even waste your time. I can't honestly say that, rather than decline to interview, I'd just hope I didn't have to answer my phone.

GMScud · 12-19-2009, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

So the minority candidate, who otherwise would traditionally be overlooked, would have the chance to at least interview. I don't understand why people are so bothered by this. Actually, I would further this Rule by adding that all teams have a bona fide search process, to get all young execs and coaches in the interview pool and at least the opportunity to go through interviews.

Well, both white and minority candidates gets passed on all the time. These coaching positions are the tops in all of football in this country. To say it's exclusive would be an understatement. The kind of interviews that go on before hiring a HC are very extensive and time consuming. I'm all for a fair hiring process, but forcing teams to interview minority candidates just because isn't productive in my opinion.

GMScud · 12-19-2009, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalisto2010

I wish I lived in the world you lived in. Where institutional racism is non existent. However, in the real world where I reside it's still a pervasive problem, despite many falsely claiming that it's no longer a hinderance. Here's some facts to back up my thought processes, I'm getting tired of reading un-verifiable conjecture.

Devah Pager

Princeton University August 9, 2008

Is racial discrimination a thing of the past?

Debates about the relevance of discrimination in today's society have been difficult to resolve, in part because of the challenges in identifying, measuring, and documenting its presence or absence in all but extreme cases. Discrimination is rarely something that can be observed explicitly.

The results of these studies were startling. Among those with no criminal record, white applicants were more than twice as likely to receive a callback relative to equally qualified black applicants. Even more troubling, whites with a felony conviction fared just as well, if not better, than a black applicant with a clean background.

Racial disparities have been documented in many contexts, but here, comparing the two job applicants side by side, we are confronted with a troubling reality: Being black in America today is just about the same as having a felony conviction in terms of one’s chances of finding a job.

Anderson Cooper 360: Blog Archive - Study: Black man and white felon – same chances for hire « - Blogs from CNN.com

This is why we need the Rooney rule.

I am speaking only of the Rooney rule as it relates to head coaching positions in the NFL. Being a head coach in the NFL is an exclusive fraternity to say the least. Of the 32 head coaching positions, 7 are currently occupied by minorities. Could it be more? Sure. Does it scream discrimination? Not at all.

You speak of institutional racism. You're swinging at much bigger fences than I'm talking about. I'm not going beyond the NFL with my opinion. The question in the thread title is only about the Rooney rule. The links/references you made were regarding studies discussing all kinds of employment on a variety of levels in this country. And in that case, I think it's a awful that a black person with no criminal history statistically stands the same chance as a white person with a felony. That's terrible.

FRPLG · 12-19-2009, 01:04 AM

Has the Rooney rule explicitly allowed a minority to obtain a job as a HC in the NFL? Very likely not. It'd be hard to identify a situation where it's even somewhat conceivable. What the Rooney Rule has done though is draw a line.

Through various management classes as so forth I have asked of my professors/lecturers/trainers, often and in a myriad of ways, how one goes about changing a culture within a business since systemic culture is so very often the cause of inefficiency and failure. Their answers usually boil down to "you have to crack it". Not blow it away but create a situation that forcefully propels an organization to reevaluate and do things differently. Something that actually starts the process of change in a perceptible way. That is what the Rooney Rule has started. It has drawn a line and creates a tiny crack. Teams are now forced to actually consider diversity in their coaching searches. That in it self is a very major step forward in remaking the culture. Progressing the issue from one of largely ignorable rhetoric and blather to something teams actually pay attention to. That is really very important. It may seem small but it is not at all.

GMScud · 12-19-2009, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FRPLG

Has the Rooney rule explicitly allowed a minority to obtain a job as a HC in the NFL? Very likely not. It'd be hard to identify a situation where it's even somewhat conceivable. What the Rooney Rule has done though is draw a line.

Through various management classes as so forth I have asked of my professors/lecturers/trainers, often and in a myriad of ways, how one goes about changing a culture within a business since systemic culture is so very often the cause of inefficiency and failure. Their answers usually boil down to "you have to crack it". Not blow it away but create a situation that forcefully propels an organization to reevaluate and do things differently. Something that actually starts the process of change in a perceptible way. That is what the Rooney Rule has started. It has drawn a line and creates a tiny crack. Teams are now forced to actually consider diversity in their coaching searches. That in it self is a very major step forward in remaking the culture. Progressing the issue from one of largely ignorable rhetoric and blather to something teams actually pay attention to. That is really very important. It may seem small but it is not at all.

Good post. Good perspective. Never thought of it in that light specifically.

tryfuhl · 12-19-2009, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

I don't know what kind of world you guys live in to think that there's no favoritism being shown to people that ...
1) you know and are familiar with
and
2) others that are similiar to you that you can relate to, which means skin color and deeper than that - cultural background.

Let's not pretend that these 2 factors don't exist when someone is in charge of hiring someone. And for those who think that factor #1 is not a problem - who do you think you are familiar with- usually people that have the same background and culture as you. And before you think that you hang with and know alot of minorities - ask yourself truthfully the last time you saw a group of blacks, hispanics, or asians together in a group out in public. You probably thought - damn there are alot of ______ (fill in your favorite racial slur). Tell me I'm wrong.

The Rooney Rule helps combats this "subtle" and unspoken prejudice.

I have lived in Manassas, Richmond, Detroit, DC, etc.. I've seen plenty of groups of minorities and no I don't think "damn there are a lot of ______s"

Maybe you think that way but don't accuse people of racism whom you haven't even met.. talk about judging people without merit.

I have what I consider 4 best friends.. one is half arabic and half hispanic, one is about the same color as a 90% cacao chocolate bar, and two are white.

You are as close-minded as these racists that you think that everybody is and seem to be the one insulting other races here, not the other way around, grow up. Sure racism exists, but a lot of discrimination of all types do.

tryfuhl · 12-19-2009, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMScud

I am speaking only of the Rooney rule as it relates to head coaching positions in the NFL. Being a head coach in the NFL is an exclusive fraternity to say the least. Of the 32 head coaching positions, 7 are currently occupied by minorities. Could it be more? Sure. Does it scream discrimination? Not at all.

You speak of institutional racism. You're swinging at much bigger fences than I'm talking about. I'm not going beyond the NFL with my opinion. The question in the thread title is only about the Rooney rule. The links/references you made were regarding studies discussing all kinds of employment on a variety of levels in this country. And in that case, I think it's a awful that a black person with no criminal history statistically stands the same chance as a white person with a felony. That's terrible.

Yep; I'd like to know what industries that they polled as well. Having done hiring and with discussions with HR in everything from retail to state govt I know that even misdemeanors hurt your chances, especially if it's drug/alcohol or theft related.

tryfuhl · 12-19-2009, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FRPLG

Has the Rooney rule explicitly allowed a minority to obtain a job as a HC in the NFL? Very likely not. It'd be hard to identify a situation where it's even somewhat conceivable. What the Rooney Rule has done though is draw a line.

Through various management classes as so forth I have asked of my professors/lecturers/trainers, often and in a myriad of ways, how one goes about changing a culture within a business since systemic culture is so very often the cause of inefficiency and failure. Their answers usually boil down to "you have to crack it". Not blow it away but create a situation that forcefully propels an organization to reevaluate and do things differently. Something that actually starts the process of change in a perceptible way. That is what the Rooney Rule has started. It has drawn a line and creates a tiny crack. Teams are now forced to actually consider diversity in their coaching searches. That in it self is a very major step forward in remaking the culture. Progressing the issue from one of largely ignorable rhetoric and blather to something teams actually pay attention to. That is really very important. It may seem small but it is not at all.

Also agree with this, I'm definitely not saying it should have never existed.

GTripp0012 · 12-19-2009, 02:39 AM

Wrong thread edit.

warriorzpath · 12-19-2009, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tryfuhl

I have lived in Manassas, Richmond, Detroit, DC, etc.. I've seen plenty of groups of minorities and no I don't think "damn there are a lot of ______s"

Maybe you think that way but don't accuse people of racism whom you haven't even met.. talk about judging people without merit.

I have what I consider 4 best friends.. one is half arabic and half hispanic, one is about the same color as a 90% cacao chocolate bar, and two are white.

You are as close-minded as these racists that you think that everybody is and seem to be the one insulting other races here, not the other way around, grow up. Sure racism exists, but a lot of discrimination of all types do.

So since you've seen and noticed that there were groups of minorities, what did you think? Nothing out of the ordinary... you just thought... oh that's normal and that you were among people like you.

You know what I said about the racist slur when referring to a group of minorities might have been a bit extreme for some, but I bet you did notice that it was different than seeing a group of white people together, where it is considered just normal.

And you and your best friends may have the perfect friendship where you properly act and behave, but I have never met 2 best friends that don't offend each other either seriously or joking around - and they are picked on with what they are different about - like their race.

If you tell me your best friends have never joked each other about their race, then I apologize, but you are in the minority (pardon the pun). And one last thing - I am not closed minded - I am just telling you what I have experienced and observed. You may live in lala land where everybody is a different color and part of the same rainbow, but I can't deny what I have seen and heard. Just because you ignore it and don't talk about it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist and it will go away by itself. But also since you are white, you have the luxury of thinking that this is not an issue. Try talking to your non-white friends about this and I think you may discover what you are telling me may be different from what they tell you. But like I said again, if I'm wrong I apologize...

... and another thing, try talking to them about this and look at their body language - if they look down or away or hesitate about talking about it - it may be that they don't feel comfortable in talking about it with you.

wolfeskins · 12-19-2009, 08:37 AM

i don't like the rooney rule, it may be a well intended rule, but it's wrong to force employers to interview people that they have no intention of hireing, regardless of sex or race.

Paintrain · 12-19-2009, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfeskins

i don't like the rooney rule, it may be a well intended rule, but it's wrong to force employers to interview people that they have no intention of hireing, regardless of sex or race.

I respect (but strongly disagree with) this viewpoint but I'd counter with the Steelers had no 'intention' of hiring Mike Tomlin when they interviewed him. The NFL, like all major sports, is very much a good old boys club. When you don't have generations of being in the league it's hard to crack that rotation. Look at how long it took Dungy to get a job after being regarded as 'ready' for years. Same thing with Sherm Lewis, he never got his chance-partially because of the playoff/interview rules at the time-but the rule is primarily about exposing owners to coaches they may not have otherwise encountered.

Please don't buy into (or sell) the naive point of view that people see talent equally and 'other factors' have no bearing on their decisions.

wolfeskins · 12-19-2009, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paintrain

I respect (but strongly disagree with) this viewpoint but I'd counter with the Steelers had no 'intention' of hiring Mike Tomlin when they interviewed him. The NFL, like all major sports, is very much a good old boys club. When you don't have generations of being in the league it's hard to crack that rotation. Look at how long it took Dungy to get a job after being regarded as 'ready' for years. Same thing with Sherm Lewis, he never got his chance-partially because of the playoff/interview rules at the time-but the rule is primarily about exposing owners to coaches they may not have otherwise encountered.

Please don't buy into (or sell) the naive point of view that people see talent equally and 'other factors' have no bearing on their decisions.

i agree with what your saying. i just don't like the idea of anyone telling another who to hire, who to interview, how to run your buisness etc..

as for the line i highlighted, i would say, it's not so much that way anymore. most teams want to be winners, they'll hire the best guy or girl for the job, but they don't need rules telling them who they need to interview. just my personal opinion.

12-19-2009, 12:30 AM	#47
WaldSkins Playmaker Join Date: May 2007 Location: Harrisburg, PA Age: 29 Posts: 2,714	Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules I could care less either way __________________ "I would change that around, Jesus isn't Cutler. I guarantee you Jesus couldnt thread the ball like Jay does."-Monksdown

12-19-2009, 01:04 AM	#51
FRPLG Franchise Player Join Date: May 2004 Age: 34 Posts: 9,232	Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules Has the Rooney rule explicitly allowed a minority to obtain a job as a HC in the NFL? Very likely not. It'd be hard to identify a situation where it's even somewhat conceivable. What the Rooney Rule has done though is draw a line. Through various management classes as so forth I have asked of my professors/lecturers/trainers, often and in a myriad of ways, how one goes about changing a culture within a business since systemic culture is so very often the cause of inefficiency and failure. Their answers usually boil down to "you have to crack it". Not blow it away but create a situation that forcefully propels an organization to reevaluate and do things differently. Something that actually starts the process of change in a perceptible way. That is what the Rooney Rule has started. It has drawn a line and creates a tiny crack. Teams are now forced to actually consider diversity in their coaching searches. That in it self is a very major step forward in remaking the culture. Progressing the issue from one of largely ignorable rhetoric and blather to something teams actually pay attention to. That is really very important. It may seem small but it is not at all.

12-19-2009, 02:39 AM	#56
GTripp0012 Living Legend Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Age: 25 Posts: 15,143	Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules Wrong thread edit. __________________ Shanahan: “The bad thing is he's [Sav Rocca] probably our best offensive weapon and that’s not good.”

12-19-2009, 08:37 AM	#58
wolfeskins The Starter Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: chesapeake,va. Posts: 2,160	Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules i don't like the rooney rule, it may be a well intended rule, but it's wrong to force employers to interview people that they have no intention of hireing, regardless of sex or race. __________________ Hail to Allen/Shanahan .... bring in some baby hogs and load up on diesel fuel !!! (budw38)

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