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Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

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Old 01-01-2010, 05:01 PM   #61
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

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Originally Posted by Dirtbag359 View Post
I can see Edwin Williams working in Shanahans system but Rhinehart feels like he wouldn't be quick enough. Maybe I'm wrong but if anything we should probably try to come away with two tackles and a guard come draft day. Personally I would love to see Edwin Williams take over at Center.
It seems to me most people that are calling for a nearly all O-Line draft expect all of them to be starting and playing effectively in their first year. A first round pick should fit that bill, maybe a 2nd.. anything past that and you never know if he'll ever pan out, much less start his first year. Drafting 3 or 4 linemen doesn't necessarily mean we'll be playing them though.
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Old 01-01-2010, 05:05 PM   #62
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

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i agree . what do you think kept the skins from using Williams at center this year, because i think Rabach really is sub par?
Not to answer for him but Bugel likes his vets, Rabach is probably more familiar with the line calls even if he sucks at them, and the contracts. Maybe not the right reason, but the likely ones I think.
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Old 01-01-2010, 06:36 PM   #63
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

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Originally Posted by tryfuhl View Post
It seems to me most people that are calling for a nearly all O-Line draft expect all of them to be starting and playing effectively in their first year. A first round pick should fit that bill, maybe a 2nd.. anything past that and you never know if he'll ever pan out, much less start his first year. Drafting 3 or 4 linemen doesn't necessarily mean we'll be playing them though.
Fair enough. Howevr, I am of the "dartboard" school of thought when it comes to the draft. Throw lots of darts and hope some hit. Quite frankly, though a bit extreme - if we drafted just O-Line this draft, I would not be too upset. Draft, develop, draft - a cycle that wins.

On a related issue, with the expiration of the CBA - what happens to compensatory draft picks for lost UFA's? do they just go away?
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Old 01-02-2010, 04:01 AM   #64
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

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Fair enough. However, I am of the "dartboard" school of thought when it comes to the draft. Throw lots of darts and hope some hit. Quite frankly, though a bit extreme - if we drafted just O-Line this draft, I would not be too upset. Draft, develop, draft - a cycle that wins.

On a related issue, with the expiration of the CBA - what happens to compensatory draft picks for lost UFA's? do they just go away?
For the 2011 draft, the players lost in this next offseason still become compensatory picks.

After this offseason, it's whatever the terms of the next CBA decide. 2011 is the final currently scheduled draft, and there won't be a 2011 season to follow, pending further development.
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Old 01-02-2010, 07:39 AM   #65
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

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Bad personnel moves are not necessarily the result of bad scouting. We clearly have made "bad personnel moves" which have been detailed in various threads. Again, was good scouting advice ignored? My thought is yes. (We're talking Vinny here). Again, I specifically recall one post from Smootsmack that demonstrated, as far as draft picks go, we had as many starters from picks as New England did (or something like that).

IMO, the scouting has not been a significant flaw but rather the use of the information provided and choices made by EVP Vinny.
There's really no way of knowing whether the scouting advice has been followed unless somebody talks to the scouts. And even then, would they call out Vinny and say that they were ignored by him? Maybe, maybe not. Even if half of the time Vinny listened to them and half of the time he didn't, the point remains -- a 4-12 record after years of mediocrity is a failure of personnel, and scouting has to be a part of that.

True, our draft picks selected have made up a larger number of the active roster than in years past -- but look at where New England is, and then look at where we are. What does that tell you about our draft picks and the quality of those scouting/selecting them?
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Old 01-02-2010, 07:49 AM   #66
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

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It is possible for a team to have good personnel but misuse them, resulting in a 4-12 record.
I might agree, but not to the extent of a 4-12 record. If you put, say, the 49ers of the 80's in a smashmouth offense, would they really be reduced to a 4-win season? I don't think so. Good players overcome lots of obstacles.

Plus, while there have been players that haven't been used right, Orakpo and Devin Thomas (at least in terms of playing time) come to mind, I would hardly say that the entire roster has been misused to the point that we could have been significantly better.

Is it your contention that we are really an 8-8 or 9-7 team and that the coaches are solely to blame?
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Old 01-02-2010, 07:57 AM   #67
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

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True, our draft picks selected have made up a larger number of the active roster than in years past -- but look at where New England is, and then look at where we are. What does that tell you about our draft picks and the quality of those scouting/selecting them?

it could be that ne plays it's most talented players, regardless of how much money their making. the skins seem to play the players with the biggest contracts, regardless of how talented they are. thats not bad scouting, thats just a bad philosaphy(sp).
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Old 01-02-2010, 08:12 AM   #68
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

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it could be that ne plays it's most talented players, regardless of how much money their making. the skins seem to play the players with the biggest contracts, regardless of how talented they are. thats not bad scouting, thats just a bad philosaphy(sp).
It depends on which scouts you're talking about - isn't there a pro/free agent scouting division?

I go back to what Defensewins said: why wouldn't we want the best scouting department in the NFL? Why are people so quick to try and obsolve our scouting department of any blame? Aren't they at least part of it?
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Old 01-02-2010, 08:26 AM   #69
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

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There's really no way of knowing whether the scouting advice has been followed unless somebody talks to the scouts. And even then, would they call out Vinny and say that they were ignored by him? Maybe, maybe not. Even if half of the time Vinny listened to them and half of the time he didn't, the point remains -- a 4-12 record after years of mediocrity is a failure of personnel, and scouting has to be a part of that.

True, our draft picks selected have made up a larger number of the active roster than in years past -- but look at where New England is, and then look at where we are. What does that tell you about our draft picks and the quality of those scouting/selecting them?
First, I am talking only about scouting - the review and evaluation of talent, particularly colllege talent, by field workers who transmit information to the personnel decision makers. Obviously, scouting may be a part of the losing record. A winning footballl operation, however, is like any good team, it takes all the parts to work well for success.

Losing is easy, it only takes one part of the organization to screw things up.

This season, poor coaching and a history of bad personnel decisions created the problems. We could have a terrific scouting department, but who would ever know if VC consistently ignored their advice and torpedoed the career of anyone who contradicted him.
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Old 01-02-2010, 10:14 AM   #70
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

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It depends on which scouts you're talking about - isn't there a pro/free agent scouting division?

I go back to what Defensewins said: why wouldn't we want the best scouting department in the NFL? Why are people so quick to try and obsolve our scouting department of any blame? Aren't they at least part of it?
Who's trying to absolve them of any blame?
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Old 01-02-2010, 11:00 AM   #71
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

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For the 2011 draft, the players lost in this next offseason still become compensatory picks.

After this offseason, it's whatever the terms of the next CBA decide. 2011 is the final currently scheduled draft, and there won't be a 2011 season to follow, pending further development.
I know this is kinda off topic but assuming 2011 is a lost season, what would happen to draft eligible players in 2011/2012? Would they become free agents or would the 2012 draft be crazy deep? How about traded draft picks (like Oakland's trade to NE for Seymour included a 2011 1st round pick) would that roll over into 2012?
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Old 01-02-2010, 12:28 PM   #72
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

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I might agree, but not to the extent of a 4-12 record. If you put, say, the 49ers of the 80's in a smashmouth offense, would they really be reduced to a 4-win season? I don't think so. Good players overcome lots of obstacles.

Plus, while there have been players that haven't been used right, Orakpo and Devin Thomas (at least in terms of playing time) come to mind, I would hardly say that the entire roster has been misused to the point that we could have been significantly better.

Is it your contention that we are really an 8-8 or 9-7 team and that the coaches are solely to blame?
No, that is not my contention.

I also am not giving scouting a pass. I hope that, starting Monday, the entire organization is put under the microscope and problems are fixed, including in scouting.

At the same time, I find it hard to blame scouting alone for 4-12, as your previous post seemed to do.
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Old 01-02-2010, 01:02 PM   #73
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

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I know this is kinda off topic but assuming 2011 is a lost season, what would happen to draft eligible players in 2011/2012? Would they become free agents or would the 2012 draft be crazy deep? How about traded draft picks (like Oakland's trade to NE for Seymour included a 2011 1st round pick) would that roll over into 2012?
huh...that is a really interesting question but I hope we don't have to live through 2011 without football, that would just be too horrible to contemplate
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Old 01-02-2010, 01:11 PM   #74
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

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I know this is kinda off topic but assuming 2011 is a lost season, what would happen to draft eligible players in 2011/2012? Would they become free agents or would the 2012 draft be crazy deep? How about traded draft picks (like Oakland's trade to NE for Seymour included a 2011 1st round pick) would that roll over into 2012?
Good question about traded draft picks, but assuming there is no draft then draft eligible players become free agents. It'd be like when the USFL came along and the teams would outbid each other to signed players out of college
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