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Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

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Old 12-30-2009, 04:35 PM   #1
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Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

Let me post this now - - before Jim Zorn is fired early next week and we all begin to fantasize about how wonderful things will be under the new regime starting with free agent signings and going all the way through the Super Bowl in Feb 2011 where the Redskins will surely be favored by at least 2 TDs. I don’t want anyone complaining that all I want to do is rain on a parade.

The Redskins need an extreme makeover. This roster is insufficient when it comes to talent and depth. This coaching staff is insufficient when it comes to creativity and motivational skills. This front office - - or at least the one under the now departed EVP - - was insufficient. The likelihood that all of those insufficiencies will be corrected and that all of the new folks brought in here will blossom immediately into huge success figures is remote. This is gonna take time folks; gird yourself for it; this team is significantly worse than the one at the end of the “Spurrier Era”.

What I would like for folks to focus on is an area of the football operation here that seems not to have come under sufficient scrutiny in the past year or so. That would be the scouting department.

Look, I think Vinny Cerrato is a football goofball; I shed nary a tear when he left town and I sincerely hope that he will NOT get a “consulting contract” with the Redskins or any kind of “advisory position” with Danny Boy. But don’t rule that out…

Having said that I think Cerrato is a football goofball, I am sure that he is not the only person in the organization who worked at evaluating college and pro players who ought to be brought to the team for evaluation on the practice/playing field. Even if Cerrato was the guy who made the final call on draft day the last few years, he did not pull the list of potential players out of his own head without the input of others. When he went around to sign free agents or scour other teams “culls” to bring someone in for an evaluation to fill a roster hole, he had to have input from someone else.

So, who was it in the scouting department who created the input that led to some of these decisions:
1. Chad Rinehart could play OG well enough that the Skins should spend a 3rd round pick on him. I’ve seen him play in about 3 games and have seen no sparks of brilliance from him. Which scout saw what games in college that led to Rinehart being on the list as a potential third-rounder?

2. Wil Montgomery was an NFL-caliber offensive lineman. Two words jump to mind here - - can't play.

3. Devin Thomas was a better football player than Desean Jackson. I know there were “character issues” around Jackson on draft day; and if that is why the Skins took Thomas over Jackson, that’s fine with me. But if any of the scouts made notes saying that Jackson was the inferior player, I’d want to consider finding a new scout for that region of the country.

4. D’Anthony Batiste was an NFL-caliber offensive lineman. Have you seen enough of this guy? I have.

5. C.J. Brooks, Paul Fanaika, William Robinson - - you get the picture.

6. DeAngelo Hall was worth $20M+ guaranteed as a cornerback. Remember, he was jettisoned by the Raiders in mid-season because he was too big a pain in the ass there to keep around. How spectacular were the Raiders in 2008 that they could just throw away a stud cornerback? I seem to recall that the Raiders stunk in 2008...

7. Kevin Huntley was going to be a quality DE in the NFL - - it’s been 3 years now…

The point is that the new GM or President of Football Operations or Grand Wizard of Football who comes in here has to depend on his scouting staff to a large degree because there are not enough hours in a year for that person to evaluate all of the players that need evaluating. And if the scouting staff is missing good players and identifying stiffs, then maybe part of the housecleaning has to be in that wing of the building.

I promise you will hear nothing from the podium when Danny Boy introduces his next victim - - I mean head coach - - about how the failures of the personnel department in the past led to the situation that the new guy is here to fix. But, that is potentially a HUGE part of the problem and we will have to take it as an article of faith that Danny Boy and the new guy have figured that out. For the record, I don’t think Danny Boy has that figured out at all…

Why did I call the next head coach a victim? Consider this:
Since Danny Boy bought the team and inherited Norv Truner as his coach, he has had one interim coach and four permanent head coaches since firing Norv. Not a single one of them has ever coached another NFL game once Danny Boy fired them.
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Old 12-30-2009, 04:57 PM   #2
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

A few thoughts:

- your posts are rather "rantish" today.Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? did you eat something thats upsetting your intestinal tract? have you suffered a severe head trauma?

- I noticed the url in your sig. why did the internet let you have a website?

- Devin Thomas is tall and we already had 2 starting smurfish WRs. DeShean Jackson isnt. Cerrato said on his radio show prior to the 2008 draft, the team was very impressed with Jackson but he just didnt fit the teams needs (tall posession receiver) at the time.

- you sure are criticizing alot of decisions on undrafted free agents. its not like they are generally accepted to become starting caliber players. otherwise, they would have, you know, been drafted.

- I dont think the scouting department has anything to do with deciding contract terms.

- Bruce Allen will make all contract decisions from now on.

- no scouting department is right 100% of the time. even the best teams in the NFL only hit on about 60% of their picks.

- since you don't like our scouting department, you might like this. we discussed it a couple of weeks ago in the shanahan thread.

NFL.com Blogs » Blog Archive Redskins hiring Allen first move towards Shanahan? «

Quote:
continue to hear from multiple league sources that Mike Shanahan remains the most likely choice to take over as the Washington Redskins’ head coach in 2010, and the hiring of Bruce Allen is but one move in an organizational overhaul....

...The Redskins will explore candidates to round out the front office in player-personnel roles, according to sources, with current personnel executives such as Eric DeCosta (Baltimore), Bobby DePaul (Chicago) and Doug Williams (Tampa Bay) among possibilities. The Redskins came close to hiring DePaul to replace Cerrato twice during the Gibbs regime, according to sources, and DeCosta, a rising star as Ozzie Newsome’s top lieutenant with the Ravens, began his career with the Redskins. Williams won a Super Bowl as the Redskins’ quarterback and worked under Allen for the Buccaneers in personnel.

Snyder also has been impressed with the work of Morocco Brown, in his first season as Washington’s director of pro personnel, and he could be someone to remain in a revamped front office.
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Old 12-30-2009, 05:05 PM   #3
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

I'm not ready to praise or condemn any football decisions before they occur (as we could often do with Vinny) until I see the people in place and the structure. You have a point that Vinny wasn't operating in a vacuum and making all of those decisions independently but some of the Redskins FO personnel are highly regarded in the league like Morocco Brown and Scott Campbell. Your cautious tone is noted but see what develops before burying the new regime already.
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Old 12-30-2009, 05:12 PM   #4
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon View Post
I don’t want anyone complaining that all I want to do is rain on a parade.
You wouldn't be curmudgeon if you didn't

Quote:
Look, I think Vinny Cerrato is a football goofball; I shed nary a tear when he left town and I sincerely hope that he will NOT get a “consulting contract” with the Redskins or any kind of “advisory position” with Danny Boy. But don’t rule that out…
He won't be

Quote:
1. Chad Rinehart could play OG well enough that the Skins should spend a 3rd round pick on him. I’ve seen him play in about 3 games and have seen no sparks of brilliance from him. Which scout saw what games in college that led to Rinehart being on the list as a potential third-rounder?

2. Wil Montgomery was an NFL-caliber offensive lineman. Two words jump to mind here - - can't play.

3. Devin Thomas was a better football player than Desean Jackson. I know there were “character issues” around Jackson on draft day; and if that is why the Skins took Thomas over Jackson, that’s fine with me. But if any of the scouts made notes saying that Jackson was the inferior player, I’d want to consider finding a new scout for that region of the country.

4. D’Anthony Batiste was an NFL-caliber offensive lineman. Have you seen enough of this guy? I have.

5. C.J. Brooks, Paul Fanaika, William Robinson - - you get the picture.

6. DeAngelo Hall was worth $20M+ guaranteed as a cornerback. Remember, he was jettisoned by the Raiders in mid-season because he was too big a pain in the ass there to keep around. How spectacular were the Raiders in 2008 that they could just throw away a stud cornerback? I seem to recall that the Raiders stunk in 2008...

7. Kevin Huntley was going to be a quality DE in the NFL - - it’s been 3 years now…
1. There were a lot of teams that saw Rinehart as a 3rd-4th round pick. Let's not close the book on him

2. Cerrato and the scouts signed Montgomery to a minimum risk contract to come in and compete with the many other linemen they brought in (it's what every single team in the NFL does). It's the coaching staff that decided to keep him on the roster

3. We're still bitching about this?

4. Feels like the 100th time I've told you, he's not on the roster

5. Chris Samuels injured, Randy Thomas injured, Chad Rinehart injured...you get the picture

6. The scouts have nothing to do with the players get paid

7. Kevin Huntley? Holy crap, you're really reaching now. You're blasting the scouting department for bringing in a mini-camp body?

Quote:
The point is that the new GM or President of Football Operations or Grand Wizard of Football who comes in here has to depend on his scouting staff to a large degree because there are not enough hours in a year for that person to evaluate all of the players that need evaluating. And if the scouting staff is missing good players and identifying stiffs, then maybe part of the housecleaning has to be in that wing of the building.

I promise you will hear nothing from the podium when Danny Boy introduces his next victim - - I mean head coach - - about how the failures of the personnel department in the past led to the situation that the new guy is here to fix. But, that is potentially a HUGE part of the problem and we will have to take it as an article of faith that Danny Boy and the new guy have figured that out. For the record, I don’t think Danny Boy has that figured out at all…
There were changes to the scouting dept. when Vinny took over in 2008 and there certainly will be this off-season as well.

Quote:
Since Danny Boy bought the team and inherited Norv Truner as his coach, he has had one interim coach and four permanent head coaches since firing Norv. Not a single one of them has ever coached another NFL game once Danny Boy fired them.
Marty Schottenheimer? Even Terry Robiskie did for a couple of games in Cleveland I believe

Mudge, in spite of your perpetual negativity I think you're a smart guy but this was your worst post ever
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Old 12-30-2009, 05:32 PM   #5
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

I WILL be disappointed if...........this coming season, the Skins are not significantly improved! We'll have to wait on the SB for now.
AND since we are sitting around speculating on the obvious shortcomings of our "dead FO walking", do you not think these things may have crossed Bruces mind?
AND, AND you do sound a little.......rantish (courtesy BHA) today
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Old 12-30-2009, 05:36 PM   #6
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

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Originally Posted by SmootSmack View Post
You wouldn't be curmudgeon if you didn't
I agree he definitely is a crusty, ill-tempered, and usually old man.
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Old 12-30-2009, 05:49 PM   #7
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

OMG. Is there no satisfying everyone? For years some of us have been wanting a rebuilding of the team. Me especially. I'm tired of the whole ..."next year is the year", "just one more player", "if we had player X we'd be a contender."

I'm actually looking at this as rebuild. I hope DS is. I hope other fans are and not getting all caught up again in the Allen and Shanahan will fix this whole mess and we will be SB bound next year. Maybe this is what your trying to say, but I'm expecting at least 3-5 years to get there. I just want us to look somewhat competative starting next year.
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Old 12-30-2009, 06:30 PM   #8
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

Let me translate Mudges post:

OMG WTF! What if the problem with the franchise was the scouts? OMFG with a new GM we will still have the same problem OMFG.
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Old 12-30-2009, 06:39 PM   #9
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon View Post
...

Why did I call the next head coach a victim? Consider this:
Since Danny Boy bought the team and inherited Norv Truner as his coach, he has had one interim coach and four permanent head coaches since firing Norv. Not a single one of them has ever coached another NFL game once Danny Boy fired them.
So that list is:
Robiskie
Schottenheimer
Spurrier
Gibbs
Zorn

I just don't get what you wanted to prove. It seemed irrelevant to your post in general, and I think everyone can agree that each one, except Zorn whose future is unclear as to where he will go and Robiskie, has unique circumstances unrelated to DS: Schottenheimer did coach after as Smoot said; Spurrier is back successful in college where he belongs, Gibbs ?where else would he have coached??, and Zorn - who will probably end up in Cleveland, lucky him.

I don't know how much the rest of your post holds water, but I am hoping for Bruce Allen to be able to hire/fire and build the exact staff he wants. And then I hope its a good one.
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Old 12-30-2009, 07:01 PM   #10
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

Hidden problems? These issues have been blogged about before in the Locker Room. Picking Devin Thomas over Jackson wasn't that bad of a decision. Thomas has come around somewhat, just need a line to protect the QB and probably a new gunslinger behind center and he might be able to do some damage in 2010 and beyond. As for the undrafted/drafted young linemen that haven't panned out? Shit happens. THis is what you get when you do not use your top picks for linemen. Folks have been bitching about this for geez since Norv even.
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Old 12-30-2009, 07:11 PM   #11
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

I will be upset if this organization doesn't build this team the right way. Draft guys, and DEVELOP our your talent. I am tired of seeing these teams draft guys and they are on the field contributing. We have a problem developing our young guys. I think Chris Wilson, Blades to name a couple on the D that look like good players, but rarely get on the field. Offense, Reihart (whatever) looked pretty good to me in the couple of games he played. Lets develop this guy. Devin Thomas and Malcom Kelly have to play. Marco Mitchel, another tall fast receiver that needs developed. We get these guys and they just sit, maybe play about 4 or 5 snaps a game. exception is Thomas. He came on strong toward the end of the season, and that was because he was on the field learning. We need to put this win now crap to rest and build a team that is stacked with young talent, depth, and capable of competing every year. If it means getting additional picks by trading some of the fan favorites (cooley, moss, portis) then so be it. We haven't done jack with them here, so why not start fresh and build a team of young hungry players instead of overpaid premadonnas.
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Old 12-30-2009, 08:43 PM   #12
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

I mean isn't the best part of Allen's reputation his ability to draft talent, acquire FA talent judiciously, and all of this in an efficient cap sense? I understand Shanny will have a strong hand in talent evaluation too...so be it. Shit man anything will be better than Vinny and his nonsensical approach to roster-building.

If there is a facet of the franchise to have come under little fire but possibly been responsible for much of the shit-show we've all endured, it would be the training/doctor group. Look 2 or our starting olineman had extremely serious injuries at season's beginning. We don't know whether there were candid conversations between trainers/doctors and the FO, and honestly I'm more likely to pin the blame on Toady the Moron for doing nothing about the oline. But nonetheless I'd like to know what kind of "diagnosis" the trainers/docs gave Chris and Randy.
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Old 12-30-2009, 08:49 PM   #13
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

has the skins organization EVER done anything right in your eyes?
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Old 12-30-2009, 09:01 PM   #14
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBXVII View Post
OMG. Is there no satisfying everyone? For years some of us have been wanting a rebuilding of the team. Me especially. I'm tired of the whole ..."next year is the year", "just one more player", "if we had player X we'd be a contender."

I'm actually looking at this as rebuild. I hope DS is. I hope other fans are and not getting all caught up again in the Allen and Shanahan will fix this whole mess and we will be SB bound next year. Maybe this is what your trying to say, but I'm expecting at least 3-5 years to get there. I just want us to look somewhat competative starting next year.
I agree on the shorter end of you prediction - this will take 3 full drafts to restock the team and become consistently competitive. And this incorporates the Skins making good picks and also not trading away picks for "one last piece". My hope with this team is one they focus on building the trenches first and then on the skill positions - and with drafting on the trenches they need to incorporate an approach of drafting at least one or two lineman every year as depth is so key in this area. Also I hope the team starts to focus on getting younger - if you look at the life expectancy of an nfl player they typically last 3.5 years - so building the team via older free agents simply is betting against the odds - lets look to Ted Lenosis and how he build the Caps into a powerhouse - build from within and keep your core guys - don't try to win the offseason championship - look at the disaster Jagr caused on the Caps and how landing the most expensive free agent completely backfired on the Caps with regards to that move.
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Old 12-30-2009, 09:37 PM   #15
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Re: Here is a "hidden problem" we haven't addressed yet...

Big Haired Asistocrat:

As a matter of fact, I'm really in a good mood today - - been with family and friends for the Holidays and I'm relaxing at a solitary weekend house in south-central PA mountains. Thanks for your concern about my mental state...

The Internet allowed me to have a website because I paid the price that it demanded to permit that to happen. Nothing more than that; nothing less.

If "tall" was the reason to take Devin Thomas over Desean Jackson and nothing else, then the person(s) making the decision should have their job in jeopardy. I understand how that can be the rationalization after the fact when Jackson is a productive receiver and Thomas still has to show he belongs in the NFL as a starter, but if that is the only reason you have on draft day, you got problems in the FO that go deeper than just Vinny the Goofball.

The scouts don't determine contract terms; that's for sure. But if the scouts were to tell the "contract people" that someone like DeAngelo Hall just isn't a top flight shut-down corner at the NFL level, you would like to think that the "contract people" might listen to that competent judgement and not offer the guy $20M+ in guaranteed money. If that isn't the mechanism, there are a boatload of problems. But if the scouts thought Hall was a "bona-fide shut down corner" and passed that message along to the "contact people", you have a simpler problem to resolve...

Bruce Allen will make all contract decsions now? Are you sure? How are you sure? Did Danny Boy swear "Scout's Honor" that would be the case? What if the New Coach wants a player "really bad"? Does Allen have the "ace of trump" over the New Coach? [If so, expect a top-shelf coach to stay here about 18 months to two years.] What happens if Danny Boy gets another "hankering" to sign a player that Allen doesn't think is worth all that much? Will Danny Boy step back and allow 100% of the final decision to rest with Allen? If you say yes, how do you know that? Please recall that Danny Boy has never done that before for very long...

Scouts make mistakes; that's for sure. I used to be a scout for an NBA team and I made several mistakes about players who I thought were marginal talents and who turned out to be stars whose names you would surely recognize. I - - and my comp0atriot scouts - - made far fewer mistakes about players who simply could not play than the Redskins scouts plus front office seem to have made in the last 3 years.

I didn't say I didn't like the scouting dept. I said that the new administration had better take a look at what the individual scouts said about a couple of dozen specific players to see if those individual scouts are worth keeping around. Even if you are ready to anoint Bruce Allen as a "football genius" - - before he does anything here in Washington more complex than finding the men's room at Redskins' Park - - he has to rely on the summary notes of the individual scouts and the folks who aggregate players under consideration for him.

Vinny was and is a "football goofball". Maybe he was even more "exposed" in his lack of insight by an imperfect scouting department/system? Might it be possible...?
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