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the great Joe Bugel

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Old 01-05-2010, 11:55 PM   #31
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Re: the great Joe Bugel

tryfuhl:

Bobby Beathard drafted and presented Joe Bugel - - and Joe Gibbs by extension - - Mark May and Russ Grimm. Beathard also signed Joe Jacoby as an undrafted free agent and when Jake arrived in camp the staff tried to put Jake on the DL until Beathard told them that Jake was signed as an OT. Those three guys - - two HoF quality players and a guy who might be considered in that class - - were handed to Bugel virtually on Day One. To his credit, Bugel did not screw that up.


Several years later as age hit "The Hogs", Beathard - - and no one else - - engineered a trade with the Chargers to acquire Jim Lachey who is another HoF caliber OT. Joe Bugel had that one land in his lap; he didn't develop anything there; Lachey was already a Pro Bowler when he arrived in DC.


Bugel is a good coach who happened to be in the right place at the right time and get a bunch of guys who would make him "famous". He has been an OL coach in other places since that run in the 80s when he had HoF quality talent under his tutelage and guess what:
With ordinary talent, his offensive lines have been - - "ordinary".
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Old 01-06-2010, 12:01 AM   #32
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Re: the great Joe Bugel

I like what Casserly said on WPL today. He said Buges was the best o-line coach he'd ever been around. No matter who he coached, that player got better. He also reminded people that George Stark was the only real veteran 0-lineman on our first SB winning team, the rest were 2nd year players.
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Old 01-06-2010, 12:23 AM   #33
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Re: the great Joe Bugel

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Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon View Post
tryfuhl:

Bobby Beathard drafted and presented Joe Bugel - - and Joe Gibbs by extension - - Mark May and Russ Grimm. Beathard also signed Joe Jacoby as an undrafted free agent and when Jake arrived in camp the staff tried to put Jake on the DL until Beathard told them that Jake was signed as an OT. Those three guys - - two HoF quality players and a guy who might be considered in that class - - were handed to Bugel virtually on Day One. To his credit, Bugel did not screw that up.


Several years later as age hit "The Hogs", Beathard - - and no one else - - engineered a trade with the Chargers to acquire Jim Lachey who is another HoF caliber OT. Joe Bugel had that one land in his lap; he didn't develop anything there; Lachey was already a Pro Bowler when he arrived in DC.


Bugel is a good coach who happened to be in the right place at the right time and get a bunch of guys who would make him "famous". He has been an OL coach in other places since that run in the 80s when he had HoF quality talent under his tutelage and guess what:
With ordinary talent, his offensive lines have been - - "ordinary".
Thanks for the history lesson. Do you think that Beathard really knew that he'd be getting HoF guys in the late late rounds though? I mean it's obvious Bugel didn't draft the guys. Not to discredit Beathard one bit.
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Old 01-06-2010, 12:29 AM   #34
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Re: the great Joe Bugel

How about Mark Schlereth, Ed Simmons, McKenzie, etc. all pretty good OL.
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Old 01-06-2010, 08:06 AM   #35
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Re: the great Joe Bugel

So talent makes a coach look better? Brilliant.

Buges did have a significant hand in making some of those diamonds in the rough sparkle.
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Old 01-06-2010, 09:05 AM   #36
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Re: the great Joe Bugel

Quote:
Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon View Post
Bobby Beathard drafted and presented Joe Bugel - - and Joe Gibbs by extension - - Mark May and Russ Grimm. Beathard also signed Joe Jacoby as an undrafted free agent and when Jake arrived in camp the staff tried to put Jake on the DL until Beathard told them that Jake was signed as an OT. Those three guys - - two HoF quality players and a guy who might be considered in that class - - were handed to Bugel virtually on Day One. To his credit, Bugel did not screw that up.


Several years later as age hit "The Hogs", Beathard - - and no one else - - engineered a trade with the Chargers to acquire Jim Lachey who is another HoF caliber OT. Joe Bugel had that one land in his lap; he didn't develop anything there; Lachey was already a Pro Bowler when he arrived in DC.


Bugel is a good coach who happened to be in the right place at the right time and get a bunch of guys who would make him "famous". He has been an OL coach in other places since that run in the 80s when he had HoF quality talent under his tutelage and guess what:
With ordinary talent, his offensive lines have been - - "ordinary".
Go depress folks somewhere else with this nonsense. Do you actually believe this stuff or are you just trying to get a rise out of people?

Reality:
1) Hogs are the greatest OL of all time consistently over a period of over 10 years, Bugel coached nine of those years.
2) May was the only 1st rounder, Grimm was a 3rd rounder, Jacoby was undrafted. Bugel's coaching played a very significant role in making that OL the Hogs. Last time I checked there were 5 positions on the OL, not to mention backups. 1st round or Pro Bowl caliber players at one position, does not make a solid OL.
3) (from wiki) Bugel's offensive line was also instrumental in the Oilers' stunning 1979 playoff upset over the high-powered San Diego Chargers, led by Dan Fouts. Working without Earl Campbell, Bugel's line, led by All-Pro tackle Leon Gray, made one-playoff-game heroes out of the likes of Rob Carpenter, Ronnie Coleman, Gifford Neilsen and Boobie Clark.
4) Here are some stats on Bugel's OLs. Outside of his stint in SD and 2007 & 2009 here (coming off the Spurrier debace he gets a pass for '04) his lines have been in the top third of the league in either Yard per Att or Sacks, or both.

...........Rank YPA Rank Sacks
Oilers 77 13 3.9 4 23
Oilers 78 11 4.1 1 17
Oilers 79 10 4.2 10 32
Oilers 80 1 4.6 5 27

Skins 81-89 Nuff said

Oak 95 9 4.2 17 36
Oak 96 1 4.8 24 45

SD 98 18 3.8 14 37
SD 99 30 3.0 22 46
SD 2000 31 3.0 26 53
SD 2001 21 3.9 6 27

Skins 04 28 3.7 19 38
Skins 05 10 4.2 12 31
Skins 06 8 4.5 3 19
Skins 07 24 3.8 13 29
Skins 08 7 4.4 23 38
Skins 09 29 3.9 28 46

Joe Bugel had a great career and deserves to be in the Ring of Honor. All Redskins fans should appreciate his contributions.
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Old 01-06-2010, 03:20 PM   #37
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Re: the great Joe Bugel

i now vote SC the biggest redskin hater on this site. in his own words, how about a poll?
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Old 01-06-2010, 06:00 PM   #38
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Re: the great Joe Bugel

I don't know about hiring Alex Gibbs to replace Bugel. For God's sake the guy is one year younger then Bugel. Personally this would be a hell of a time to extend a job offer to Ray Brown. Currently he's working for the Bills.

He (Ray Brown) was hired as assistant offensive line coach for the Buffalo Bills on January 17, 2008.
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Old 01-06-2010, 10:11 PM   #39
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Re: the great Joe Bugel

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Originally Posted by dmek25 View Post
i now vote SC the biggest redskin hater on this site. in his own words, how about a poll?

Don't like reality much do you?
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Old 01-06-2010, 10:16 PM   #40
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Re: the great Joe Bugel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33 View Post
Go depress folks somewhere else with this nonsense. Do you actually believe this stuff or are you just trying to get a rise out of people?

Reality:
1) Hogs are the greatest OL of all time consistently over a period of over 10 years, Bugel coached nine of those years.
2) May was the only 1st rounder, Grimm was a 3rd rounder, Jacoby was undrafted. Bugel's coaching played a very significant role in making that OL the Hogs. Last time I checked there were 5 positions on the OL, not to mention backups. 1st round or Pro Bowl caliber players at one position, does not make a solid OL.
3) (from wiki) Bugel's offensive line was also instrumental in the Oilers' stunning 1979 playoff upset over the high-powered San Diego Chargers, led by Dan Fouts. Working without Earl Campbell, Bugel's line, led by All-Pro tackle Leon Gray, made one-playoff-game heroes out of the likes of Rob Carpenter, Ronnie Coleman, Gifford Neilsen and Boobie Clark.
4) Here are some stats on Bugel's OLs. Outside of his stint in SD and 2007 & 2009 here (coming off the Spurrier debace he gets a pass for '04) his lines have been in the top third of the league in either Yard per Att or Sacks, or both.

...........Rank YPA Rank Sacks
Oilers 77 13 3.9 4 23
Oilers 78 11 4.1 1 17
Oilers 79 10 4.2 10 32
Oilers 80 1 4.6 5 27

Skins 81-89 Nuff said

Oak 95 9 4.2 17 36
Oak 96 1 4.8 24 45

SD 98 18 3.8 14 37
SD 99 30 3.0 22 46
SD 2000 31 3.0 26 53
SD 2001 21 3.9 6 27

Skins 04 28 3.7 19 38
Skins 05 10 4.2 12 31
Skins 06 8 4.5 3 19
Skins 07 24 3.8 13 29
Skins 08 7 4.4 23 38
Skins 09 29 3.9 28 46

Joe Bugel had a great career and deserves to be in the Ring of Honor. All Redskins fans should appreciate his contributions.


Put him in the Ring of Honor if that makes you feel good. He had one great run with OLs in the 1980s and had 4 Hall of Fame level talents play most of that time on his offensive lines. I'm not saying he is a bum or a failure; I am saying that his achievements have to be measured in terms of the contributions that others handed to him. That's all.

Given really sub-standard talent to work with in 2008 and 2009, the Redskins' OL under his tutelage and his motivation were sub-standard. If that isn't obvious to you, I don't know how else to explain a combined record of 12-20 with minimal offensive output.
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Old 01-06-2010, 10:28 PM   #41
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Re: the great Joe Bugel

Quote:
Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon View Post
Given really sub-standard talent to work with in 2008 and 2009, the Redskins' OL under his tutelage and his motivation were sub-standard. If that isn't obvious to you, I don't know how else to explain a combined record of 12-20 with minimal offensive output.
How about injuries to your best 3 lineman? Samuels, Thomas and Jansen. This year even the backups were injured which made 3rd and 4th stringers start. Who would you consider a better OL coach in your opinion?
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Old 01-06-2010, 10:28 PM   #42
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Re: the great Joe Bugel

Quote:
Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon View Post
Put him in the Ring of Honor if that makes you feel good. He had one great run with OLs in the 1980s and had 4 Hall of Fame level talents play most of that time on his offensive lines. I'm not saying he is a bum or a failure; I am saying that his achievements have to be measured in terms of the contributions that others handed to him. That's all.
I'm saying that at least 3 of those 4 HoF caliber players would likely not be in that position without Joe Bugel's coaching. I wouldn't put anyone in the Ring of Honor to feel good, only if they deserve it....and Buges certainly does.

Quote:
Given really sub-standard talent to work with in 2008 and 2009, the Redskins' OL under his tutelage and his motivation were sub-standard. If that isn't obvious to you, I don't know how else to explain a combined record of 12-20 with minimal offensive output.
I know my numbers in the post were a little hard to read due to the formatting, but Buges' OLs have performed very well for 19 out of 25 years since 1977. I don't know how else to explain that you can't summarize 25+ years of coaching in the final two years of Buges' career, coaching a system (Zone Blocking) he wasn't experienced with, with a dysfunctional FO and coaching staff/structure surrounding him.
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Old 01-06-2010, 10:40 PM   #43
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Re: the great Joe Bugel

Peace!
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Old 01-06-2010, 10:41 PM   #44
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Re: the great Joe Bugel

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Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33 View Post
I'm saying that at least 3 of those 4 HoF caliber players would likely not be in that position without Joe Bugel's coaching. I wouldn't put anyone in the Ring of Honor to feel good, only if they deserve it....and Buges certainly does.

I know my numbers in the post were a little hard to read due to the formatting, but Buges' OLs have performed very well for 19 out of 25 years since 1977. I don't know how else to explain that you can't summarize 25+ years of coaching in the final two years of Buges' career, coaching a system (Zone Blocking) he wasn't experienced with, with a dysfunctional FO and coaching staff/structure surrounding him.
Well said SS33 . He took T) Starke # 74 and eliminated all those holding penalties . Other's G) F. Dean , C) Bostic < cut/philly > , G) R Mckenzie .... we won 3 Super Bowls with 3 diff. QB's being protected by Buges line . We also had diff. starting RB's in all three SB wins . No coach wins SB rings with poor talent , Buges took no names and gave OL ... a name .... HOGS #1 ... Thanks coach Buges .... good luck in all you do !
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Old 01-06-2010, 11:11 PM   #45
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Re: the great Joe Bugel

Quote:
Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon View Post
Put him in the Ring of Honor if that makes you feel good. He had one great run with OLs in the 1980s and had 4 Hall of Fame level talents play most of that time on his offensive lines. I'm not saying he is a bum or a failure; I am saying that his achievements have to be measured in terms of the contributions that others handed to him. That's all.

Given really sub-standard talent to work with in 2008 and 2009, the Redskins' OL under his tutelage and his motivation were sub-standard. If that isn't obvious to you, I don't know how else to explain a combined record of 12-20 with minimal offensive output.
Do you feel the same about Joe Gibbs? he never won a SB without the hogs. His teams struggled without superior talent.

Would Jacoby have been as successful if he played for another team?
I doubt it.

Lachey and May are the only two players who are superior athletes. Jacoby and Grimm didn't come out of college playing like hall of famers.

Last edited by jamf; 01-07-2010 at 12:02 AM.
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