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Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts

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Old 02-08-2010, 04:18 PM   #241
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Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts

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No they didn't. Brady didn't play for the 86 Bears or the 2000 Ravens. His Defenses were good, not great. AND Manning has had WAY MORE talent around him, yet he consistently under-achieves. As a matter of fact, if it weren't for Brady's pathetic Receivers (future hall of famers, Troy Brown and Jabar Gaffney) dropping passes, last night would have been Manning's first Super Bowl. Manning is this generations Dan Marino. Brady is this generation's Joe Montana. Manning has 29TDs and 18INTs in the playoffs. AVERAGE!

Manning is Brady's bitch!
With all due respect, particularly to the 2006 Patriots, the better Brady's offense has gotten around him, the MORE dominant Manning has been in the head to head series.

In the time frame between 2001-2005, New England's defense was the best overall defense in the time range. They may never have had a single year where they could be in the "greatest defense of all time" debate, but you'd have to put the early-decade Patriots in the same class as the great Titans defenses from earlier this decade and the Steelers defenses from more recent times, and the mid-decade Bears as the best defensive unit of the last ten years. No defense has been better longer since the Patriots.

And Brady hasn't won anything since his defenses were relevant. He's 2-2 in his last four playoff games, and 5-4 in his last nine. We can rip Manning for his overall playoff record being out of line with his regular season record, but he hasn't been a worse (or better) quarterback in the postseason than Brady. Saying otherwise is ignoring the evidence.

It's 2010 now. You need a new narrative.
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Old 02-08-2010, 04:21 PM   #242
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Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts

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Coaching was key in this game and Sean Payton won hands down. I was disappointed the Colts sent Stover out for the 51 yard FG. He's not very good from long distance anymore and I thought the Colts would have been better off going for it or punting for field position.
Yeah I don't think the Colts did anything to match NO's aggressiveness, and they clearly needed to in some spots. Stover doesn't have the range anymore for 50+, I thought they should have gone for it.
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Old 02-08-2010, 04:22 PM   #243
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Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts

Now, if you want to argue that Drew Brees is a better quarterback in the postseason than either of them, there's only limited evidence on him, but he's actually 4-2 in the postseason since first reaching it in 2004, and has very comparable numbers to his regular season stats. You'll need like 3 more seasons on him before conclusions can be reached, but he was marvelous last night.
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Old 02-08-2010, 04:26 PM   #244
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Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts

The Saints made another "bold move" toward the end of the 1st half by going for it on 4th down and the Colts D stuffed them. Indy blew it by going 3 and out deep in their own territory right after that. Colts had a huge chance to make something to end the first half after a 4th down goal-line stand and then start the 2nd half with the ball. That seems to have been forgotten
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Old 02-08-2010, 04:28 PM   #245
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Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts

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NFL Network is now anointing the Saints "America's Team" with none other than Michael Irvin leading the charge. Is he forgetting that team he used to play for or what?

I'm really happy for the Saints, but it's amazing the things people will say after a big win like yesterday, praise comes from everywhere from some of the most unlikely sources. I too give it up for the Saints, no team more deserving.
Well it could be easy to call them America's Team because over half the citizens live of our tax dollars.
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Old 02-08-2010, 04:29 PM   #246
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Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts

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The Saints made another "bold move" toward the end of the 1st half by going for it on 4th down and the Colts D stuffed them. Indy blew it by going 3 and out deep in their own territory right after that. Colts had a huge chance to make something to end the first half after a 4th down goal-line stand and then start the 2nd half with the ball. That seems to have been forgotten
Yeah that 3 and out was big, no doubt. I guess they just didn't want to risk a turnover but it was odd to not see the Colts come out in attack mode like they usually do.
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Old 02-08-2010, 04:31 PM   #247
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Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts

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I think if someone said that onside kick was the gutsiest call they had ever seen in their entire lifetime I don't think I would be interested in arguing with them. It is just insane how much of a risk/reward calculation that play call was.
It was insanely ballzy, but it's more insane that it hadn't been used in any of the prior 43 super bowls. A surprise onside kick, so long as it hasn't been used so often as that it is not surprise, offers a chance to risk 30 yards of field position (expected point value of 1.4) for what is essentially a turnover (expected point value of 3.0) at a near even rate. That's a great play to take the risk on.

I'd imagine that coaches shy away from it only because of media criticism and the fear that the other team might be well coached enough as to be prepared for it. But Payton is clearly oblivious to what people think about him, which is one of the primary qualifications of a great head coach.
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Old 02-08-2010, 04:33 PM   #248
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Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts

Very happy for the Saints well deserved, a little jealous to when will the SKINS get back there hopefully soon.
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Old 02-08-2010, 04:35 PM   #249
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Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts

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I call "bullshit" on this post. Only because it's absurd to suggest that Manning is in Tom Brady's league in playoff performance.

He absolutely is not.
Says who?

Tom Brady Career Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Peyton Manning Career Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Each has 18 playoff starts. Manning has a QB rating 87.6, Brady has one of 85.5. QB rating is not a nearly accurate enough statistic to judge anything conclusive from that, or to say one is better than the other, but 18 football games is a lot of data, and that's a nearly identical performance--generally speaking.
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Old 02-08-2010, 04:43 PM   #250
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Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts

I know a lot of Brees' playoff starts have been in warm weather/indoors, in fact, his worst playoff start is his only game played outdoors, in cold weather, in January,

but these playoff numbers (see bottom of page) are cartoonish.

Drew Brees Career Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com

He officially has my support for the hall of fame, whatever it's worth to him.
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Old 02-08-2010, 04:44 PM   #251
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Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts

Saints' Super Bowl win nips 'MASH' finale for most-watched show ever | Company Town | Los Angeles Times
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Old 02-08-2010, 04:48 PM   #252
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Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts

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Says who?

Tom Brady Career Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Peyton Manning Career Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Each has 18 playoff starts. Manning has a QB rating 87.6, Brady has one of 85.5. QB rating is not a nearly accurate enough statistic to judge anything conclusive from that, or to say one is better than the other, but 18 football games is a lot of data, and that's a nearly identical performance--generally speaking.

This was before this year's playoffs:

Brady vs. Manning - CBSSports.com

Joe Montana Tom Brady Peyton Manning
Playoff Record: 16-7 14-3 7-8
Playoff TD-INT: 45-21 26-12 22-17
Playoff Passer Rating: 95.6 93.4 84.6
Super Bowl Record: 4-0 3-1 1-0
Super Bowl TD-INT: 11-0 7-1 1-1
Super Bowl Passer Rating: 127.8 99.88 81.80
Super Bowl MVPs: 3 2 1
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Old 02-08-2010, 04:54 PM   #253
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Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts

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Because unlike you Greg, I don't place such a high value on statistics.

Stats are very telling and useful and all, but they are far from the whole the story.
That's fine and all, but I'm thinking that the alternative to the gross statistical totals (which are--as you pointed out--far from the whole story) is stuff that happened more than five years ago, when a 26 year old Brady was thought to be, if nothing else, more "clutch" than a 28 year old Manning.

Which is, in my opinion, not more inclusive than the statistics show, but far less.

I don't wish to make a conclusive argument that Manning and Brady are playoff equals, I just wish to show that there's no noticeable difference between what one has done and what the other has. And if there's not a noticeable difference, then unsupported quips that suggest that EVERYONE should know that the statistics are wrong are just that- unsupported.

Not wrong. Not by any means. Just unsupported.
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Old 02-08-2010, 05:00 PM   #254
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Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts

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This was before this year's playoffs:

Brady vs. Manning - CBSSports.com

Joe Montana Tom Brady Peyton Manning
Playoff Record: 16-7 14-3 7-8
Playoff TD-INT: 45-21 26-12 22-17
Playoff Passer Rating: 95.6 93.4 84.6
Super Bowl Record: 4-0 3-1 1-0
Super Bowl TD-INT: 11-0 7-1 1-1
Super Bowl Passer Rating: 127.8 99.88 81.80
Super Bowl MVPs: 3 2 1
This is strong evidence and all, but I want to suggest that the significance of it all could be brought into question by simply adding another year of performance to the equation, particularly one that brings Brady and Manning to the same number of playoff starts, completely eliminates the performance differences between them.

Montana brings me to another great point. There's a guy who had a great playoff career. Excellent playoff performer. But if you cut off his career at 1985 or 1986, not so much. Montana's playoff numbers only became great due to what he accomplished in his thirties.

Therefore, the less time we allow Manning to perform in the playoffs, the weaker his playoff argument gets. We absolutely HAVE to include this year in the analysis, and probably, this playoff quarterback comparison cannot end until Brady and Manning both reach the point of their careers where they are complementary parts in their offenses.
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Old 02-08-2010, 05:02 PM   #255
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Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts

The implied clause in my argument is that BOTH quarterbacks will be back in the playoffs next year, and they both have multiple playoff games left. There is no reason to try to declare one better than the other, especially because they are so close right now.
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