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Time to Build an Offensive Line

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Old 03-10-2010, 01:15 AM   #286
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

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Originally Posted by Ruhskins View Post
Tripp, Levi as a RT...upgrade from Heyer or about the same?
Against 2009 Heyer, he's a run blocking downgrade and a pass blocking upgrade, which I'd call a slight net gain.

But against 2010 Heyer, there's no easy answer. He's probably a downgrade, especially as a full-time option, but I can't say for sure, because if Heyer has maxed out his ability to block opposing pass rushers at the age of 26, then his run blocking (best on the team, based on the current roster) probably isn't dominant enough to justify a roster spot much longer.

At the point which Levi Jones can no longer handle left tackle, which might have been two years ago, he no longer has value as an NFL player.
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Old 03-10-2010, 01:46 AM   #287
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

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Against 2009 Heyer, he's a run blocking downgrade and a pass blocking upgrade, which I'd call a slight net gain.

But against 2010 Heyer, there's no easy answer. He's probably a downgrade, especially as a full-time option, but I can't say for sure, because if Heyer has maxed out his ability to block opposing pass rushers at the age of 26, then his run blocking (best on the team, based on the current roster) probably isn't dominant enough to justify a roster spot much longer.

At the point which Levi Jones can no longer handle left tackle, which might have been two years ago, he no longer has value as an NFL player.
Not sure how confident we can be in this assumption going forward (though you would know better based on the details of zone-blocking vs Zorn-blocking). Heyer seemed to struggle mightily when forced to block into the 2nd level...struggle to find his target, quickly get to him and then break down to block w/ proper form.
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Old 03-10-2010, 01:55 AM   #288
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

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I don't actually think Okung will be gone when we pick. I think Detroit and Tampa Bay will have serious internal discussions about taking him, and I think Detroit is more likely to take him, but ultimately, won't be able to pass on Suh or McCoy.
Don't forget that Anthony Davis will be there as well. That guy goes from being my least favorite to now one of my favorites. Of course Bradford should easily be the guy if he's there.
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Old 03-10-2010, 02:11 AM   #289
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

clausen > bradford
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Old 03-10-2010, 02:14 AM   #290
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

Okung > Bradford/Clausen
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Old 03-10-2010, 02:28 AM   #291
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

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Not sure how confident we can be in this assumption going forward (though you would know better based on the details of zone-blocking vs Zorn-blocking). Heyer seemed to struggle mightily when forced to block into the 2nd level...struggle to find his target, quickly get to him and then break down to block w/ proper form.
Indeed you are correct, but not quite as hilariously as in past years.

His screen blocking is still fun to watch, at least in the abstract, not concerned with outcome of play sense.
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Old 03-10-2010, 02:41 AM   #292
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

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Okung > Bradford/Clausen
2010 Okung >>>>>>>> 2010 Bradford

2012 Bradford >>>>>>>>>>> 2012 Okung
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Old 03-10-2010, 03:01 AM   #293
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

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2010 Okung >>>>>>>> 2010 Bradford

2012 Bradford >>>>>>>>>>> 2012 Okung
Certainly, it's hyperbole in one spot on the other. If Bradford really is as good as his strongest supporters advertised, he'd have some value right off the bat.

Agreed that his improvement curve will be a lot steeper than Okung's, as most QBs are compared to OTs, but QBs who are below replacement in their first two seasons tend not to improve to a point that would justify....that many 'greater than' signs?

My point is this: if we're not comfortable playing Bradford or Clausen right away, we're never actually going to be comfortable playing them. They might take some lumps early, but if they can't outplay Stafford and Sanchez from last year, they don't deserve to be high picks.
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Old 03-10-2010, 03:29 AM   #294
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

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Certainly, it's hyperbole in one spot on the other. If Bradford really is as good as his strongest supporters advertised, he'd have some value right off the bat.

Agreed that his improvement curve will be a lot steeper than Okung's, as most QBs are compared to OTs, but QBs who are below replacement in their first two seasons tend not to improve to a point that would justify....that many 'greater than' signs?

My point is this: if we're not comfortable playing Bradford or Clausen right away, we're never actually going to be comfortable playing them. They might take some lumps early, but if they can't outplay Stafford and Sanchez from last year, they don't deserve to be high picks.
I guess that's my biggest wonder

can they do more than the people before them trusted to do the same job

at the same point it's not my job to figure that out.. so... yeah
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Old 03-10-2010, 12:07 PM   #295
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

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Just saw Rick Maese tweet that the Redskins have offered Levi Jones a 1-year deal. Does anyone know anything about this? I wonder if he'd play RT? Any thoughts on this as a possible line:

LT: Okung
LG: Dock
C: Rabach
RG: Hicks
RT: Jones

Wow seeing it like this makes me pretty scarred. Even if we get a tackle with our first pick, this oline is gonna take a while to fix. I honestly believe we have to go o line with our first and second round picks, and still hope something else works out for us too.
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Old 03-10-2010, 12:28 PM   #296
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

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Certainly, it's hyperbole in one spot on the other. If Bradford really is as good as his strongest supporters advertised, he'd have some value right off the bat.
You know that most likely thats not the case with a rookie QB. Plus if we got Bradford he wouldn't even start as JC would likely be the teams starter.
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Old 03-10-2010, 01:56 PM   #297
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruhskins View Post
Just saw Rick Maese tweet that the Redskins have offered Levi Jones a 1-year deal. Does anyone know anything about this? I wonder if he'd play RT? Any thoughts on this as a possible line:

LT: Okung
LG: Dock
C: Rabach
RG: Hicks
RT: Jones
I like it, but not as much as i'd like

LT: Okung
LG: Dock
c: Rabach
RG: Rinehart
RT Hicks

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Originally Posted by mlmpetert View Post
Wow seeing it like this makes me pretty scarred. Even if we get a tackle with our first pick, this oline is gonna take a while to fix. I honestly believe we have to go o line with our first and second round picks, and still hope something else works out for us too.
i actually agree with you. good call.

so... i have to ask - do you still want danny to sell the team or have you just forgotten to update your sig?
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Old 03-10-2010, 02:40 PM   #298
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

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Originally Posted by mlmpetert View Post
Wow seeing it like this makes me pretty scarred. Even if we get a tackle with our first pick, this oline is gonna take a while to fix. I honestly believe we have to go o line with our first and second round picks, and still hope something else works out for us too.
Hmmm, francise QB or franchise LT? Joe Thomas or Phillip Rivers? Stop being so short sighted people. This is going to be a two year process. I agree that one of the first two picks should be O-Line but lets not pretend that all of our problems will be fixed by picking two O-Lineman with our first two picks. All that did for the Jags was get them to 8-8.

You don't pass up a franchise QB and it's clear to most scouts right now that Bradford is that type of guy. Just pray that he falls to us, in which case you'll thank the front office in a few years.
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Old 03-10-2010, 03:43 PM   #299
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

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Hmmm, francise QB or franchise LT? Joe Thomas or Phillip Rivers? Stop being so short sighted people. This is going to be a two year process. I agree that one of the first two picks should be O-Line but lets not pretend that all of our problems will be fixed by picking two O-Lineman with our first two picks. All that did for the Jags was get them to 8-8.

You don't pass up a franchise QB and it's clear to most scouts right now that Bradford is that type of guy. Just pray that he falls to us, in which case you'll thank the front office in a few years.
You make it sound like it is the end of the world if we don't get Bradford. Jacksonville may have been 8-8, but they were still in the playoff hunt before they fell apart. Besides, there are issues in Jax outside of football that are hunting that franchise. Furthermore, I can show you a Miami or a NYJets as teams that addressed their line first, and then went QB (Jets) or addressed the line and were able to develop their 2nd round QB (Henne).

Tackles can be just as important as QBs. Given that we have a serviceable QB that could play for a year or two, it's really hard to pass up on a franchise tackle when we had the JaMarcus Russell equivalent of an offensive line.

I know Bradford appears to have a lot of talent, but in the end he got injured during his senior year and did not play the majority of his final season in college. I'm sure for the sane mind this is not much of an issue and players do come back from these injuries and can be successful. But you are asking a team to gamble on this player with those two things in mind (injury and not playing), and pass up on the bast tackle that can be a huge improvement to the unit that just lost its best player (Samuels), and has been a big contributor to the losing ways of this team.

If Jason Campbell had put up JaMarcus Russell numbers over the past two years, a.) he probably would have been cut and b.) I'd be riding the Bradford bandwagon. Outside of that, I can't see how not taking Bradford and picking up Okung would be the end of the world.
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Old 03-10-2010, 04:23 PM   #300
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

I don't think it's clear at all whether Bradford is a true franchise QB or not. I think once he has his pro day we'll clear some things up.
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