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Time to Build an Offensive Line

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Old 02-18-2010, 05:38 PM   #61
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

Do anyone know whether if Shanahan wants to retain Levi Jones? I don't think he's athleticism enough to play block zone, but once again, we are limited with T choices.. Especially if Shanahan really wants to draft a QB with the first pick..
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Old 02-18-2010, 06:07 PM   #62
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

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Originally Posted by Ruhskins View Post
So once again I will create thread on a good subject that I'm sure will get under 30 responses since it doesn't involve Campbell, a rookie QB, or some of the other overused topics people like to debate ad nauseam.

With that being said, here is your challenge. You are the GM (or Shanahan), how do you build the Redskins offensive line? Who do you keep? Who do you cut? Who would you draft? And which free agent would you go after?

Now, no crazy Madden-esque trades. Also, remember if you have an RFA in mind, that means that you trading picks for them (i.e. San Diego's tackle Marcus McNeill). And of course, if someone is under contract, well I say it's not even worth mentioning them.

Oh and don't just answer with the phrase "Shanahan can build an offensive line with just about anyone."
Damnit Ruhskins, I wasn't even going to worry about discussing real issues until the middle of March. Look what you're doing to my schedule!!!111!!

First of all, I think we have to leverage the 4th overall pick into one of three franchise left tackles. Guys who can actually play the position are in crazy high demand, and if you wait until the second round, you get a guy who might end up being Tony Ugoh or Duane Brown. This seems like the type of player that Bruce Campbell might be. A fringe LT prospect who should make a good RT. But there are also a lot of really interesting RTs in this draft that, once we nail down the LT position (or at least we think we do) opens up the rest of the draft to address other spot on our line at a leisurely pace.

I have Anthony Davis and Russell Okung 1 and 1a at LT on my draft board. I'm more worried about Brian Bulaga at that position. One of the advantages of picking in the top five is that, even if Bulaga is the best prospect, you don't have to worry about taking him that high if the marginal value between him and say, Charles Brown, or my guy Trent Williams, or even linemate Kyle Calloway isn't really all that great.

If it was me, I would take Okung. I can see the allure of Davis, however. He's perhaps more of a natural athlete, even if he's more raw as a lineman. If one's gone, I'd take the other. I don't think either is as good as Michael Oher, but then again, there isn't a pass rusher in this draft as strong as Orakpo.

I'm very skeptical to say that we will pick at 37 in the second round. I think we'll either trade up for a quarterback/defensive stud, or down for a receiver/safety or for value. If we stay there, I like trying to grab an elite interior lineman if Iupati or Pouncey is there, or a very good right tackle prospect if they aren't.

In the 4th round, I would take Matt Tennant if he falls that far, but there's also a good chance that we might use this pick to trade up from the second round back to the bottom of the first. After the fourth round, we're getting into a strict BPA range. Developmental tackles on the cheap are always fun (Sam Young?), but adding a guard tends to offer better long term prospects, particularly if we solidify the tackle situation in the early rounds.

I also want to sign Casey Wiegmann to a 1 year, $1.5 million deal if we don't land Pouncey or Tennant.
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Old 02-18-2010, 06:21 PM   #63
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

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Not sure anyone has mentioned him, but Kory Liechtensteiger has a strong chance to make the team and potentially start at C or G
I had him in there last night, but I think he has to make the team before we (myself included, apparently) concern ourselves with having to spell Liechtensteiger. People still struggle with Rinehart. And he's been here for two years.
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Old 02-18-2010, 10:47 PM   #64
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

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Originally Posted by 30gut View Post
I've tried to envision a scenario where we upgrade the OL independent of the 4th pick and while i can come up with improvements its only because of how bad the OL was last year.

LT-Stephon Heyer-it would require hope that a healthy Heyer can show the promise he showed at the end of 2008 when he took over the LT spot from an injured Samuels, Heyer played the majority of the season with a knee injury that often prevented him from practicing: Ratng... Serviceable to good,

LG-Dockery-Good

C-Edwin Williams-- I think its time to find out if Edwin Williams is ready to step up, as a rookie UDFA pressed into playing out of position at RG he played well. Maybe moving him to his natural position of Center will make the middle of the OL more stout then its been with Rabach. Rabach is a decent center but he's a FA and he's not strong at the point (and Ratliff owns him twice err!!) On the flip side he could provide veteran leadership on an OL in tranisition-but on the flip side of that why wait to build the OL into a young cohesive unit ready to grow and improve togother starting with the Center?-Rating: Serviceable to good

RG-Rinehart i thought he played well after he was finally placed into the starting line-up after needless handwringing and concern. One thing i never understood was why they let Rinehart get all the reps while Randy Thomas was recovering from his injuries then broke the cohesion by putting Thomas in as the starter when he returned from his injury. But when Thomas was injured again the acted like Rinehart wasn't ready to play and tried playing Montgomery and Williams instead? And imo Rinehart played better then both those guys.

RT-2nd round pick hopefully Bruce Campbell but that's unlikely maybe... Duccase or Charles Brown lasts they could play RT until/if they show they're ready to play LT or they could stat at LT until they show they can't handle it, i would prefer they start at RT then move over, but if there is a run on OT which is likely Ducasse and Brown might not even being around when we pick in the 2nd and don't like hope as a strategy for landing OL via the draft

FA:
Tony Pashos via FA he's cheap and familiar with new OL coach Forester
Pashos could challenge for the RT against a rookie and provide some depth

I think this OL or a similiar OL would be an improvement because they would be young players building cohesion and could grow together and improve with playing experience

But, imo it would be easier and yield greater improvement if we began fixing the OL by solidifying either OT with the 4th pick:

LT-Okung / Davis-Good
LG-Dockery-Good
C-Ed Williams-Seriveable to Good
RG-Rinehart-Serviceable to Good
RT-Heyer-Serviceable to Good

Cut/Released/Retired:

Chris Samuels
Randy Thomas
Casey Rabach
Mike Williams


Sorry, I cannot let this one go by...


Heyer is not "servicable to good". Heyer is like your emergency 3rd string QB. When he has to go into the game in the second quarter, the s*hit has already hit the fan and you are downwind.


Edwin Williams did not "play good" at guard. He did not soil himself; he did not embarrass his family. Other than that, you would have to look really hard to come up with positive statements about his play on the line.


Rinehart has never - - as in not ever - - done anything on a Sunday in Washington that would distinguish him from an off-duty piano mover in a Redskins' uniform. MAYBE he will blossom into an offensive guard someday; maybe he will go back to his home and take up needlepoint for a living. So far, the performance on the field in real NFL games on Sundays tends to make me think about the "needlepoint option".


If the Redskins OL for 2010 has E. Williams, Rinehart and Heyer as starters, maybe we need to sign Barry Sanders to play QB - - because the QB will be running for his life for much of the season...
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Old 02-18-2010, 11:39 PM   #65
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

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Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon View Post
Sorry, I cannot let this one go by...


Heyer is not "servicable to good". Heyer is like your emergency 3rd string QB. When he has to go into the game in the second quarter, the s*hit has already hit the fan and you are downwind.


Edwin Williams did not "play good" at guard. He did not soil himself; he did not embarrass his family. Other than that, you would have to look really hard to come up with positive statements about his play on the line.


Rinehart has never - - as in not ever - - done anything on a Sunday in Washington that would distinguish him from an off-duty piano mover in a Redskins' uniform. MAYBE he will blossom into an offensive guard someday; maybe he will go back to his home and take up needlepoint for a living. So far, the performance on the field in real NFL games on Sundays tends to make me think about the "needlepoint option".


If the Redskins OL for 2010 has E. Williams, Rinehart and Heyer as starters, maybe we need to sign Barry Sanders to play QB - - because the QB will be running for his life for much of the season...
I agree with this post.

Anyone who is placing these guys in our starting lineup for next season is severely underestimating our need for a complete OL overhaul.

It's real, believe it, we actually need 4 completely new solutions for positions on our OL. The only remaining starter being Dockery.
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Old 02-18-2010, 11:43 PM   #66
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

Well we don't need 5 studs on the line, but it's important to have at least 2.. and 3 guys that can work along with them

We could work with a couple of the pieces that we have, but Dockery seems the most certain vs a lot of questionables otherwise on the line already
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Old 02-18-2010, 11:52 PM   #67
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

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Well we don't need 5 studs on the line, but it's important to have at least 2.. and 3 guys that can work along with them

We could work with a couple of the pieces that we have, but Dockery seems the most certain vs a lot of questionables otherwise on the line already
Give me this...we need more playable guys on our OL than we'll be able to get this year.

We don't need them all to be Samuels, but we'll need them to not be D'Anthony Baptiste.
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Old 02-19-2010, 01:35 AM   #68
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

Reading through this thread is sort of like inducing nightmarish flashbacks. Heyer at LT!!! I mean seriously, how is that possible in a billion dollar franchise? HOW I ASK YOU?

...but then you can get to laughing too. Remembering Heyer trying to find a defender at the second level, then making the approach, then watching him remember to try to get back into form to make the block, then missing altogether or falling off balance at the last second (keep in mind that by the time Heyer found someone to block the play was typically over so it resulted in a late hit penalty or just a busted play). This should not happen at the pro level.
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Old 02-19-2010, 01:56 AM   #69
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

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Originally Posted by CultBrennan59 View Post
LT: Charles Brown USC(2nd round), Levi Jones
LG: Dockery, Ben Hamilton, Chester Pitts (FA)
C: Matt Tennant (4th round), Ben Hamilton, Edwin Williams, Kory Litchenstreiger
RG: Chris Kuper, Edwin Williams, Kory Litchenstreiger, Shelly Smith (7th round pick)
RT: Jason Fox (5th round pick), Stephon Heyer, Tony Pashos

Draft Bradford, If he's gone, get Okung in the first and Maurkice Pouncey in the second, and mitch petrus in the fourth.
So in this scenario, what would you give Denver to get Kuper? He's an RFA, and will likely be tendered by McD.
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Old 02-19-2010, 02:12 AM   #70
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

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Originally Posted by GTripp0012 View Post
Damnit Ruhskins, I wasn't even going to worry about discussing real issues until the middle of March. Look what you're doing to my schedule!!!

First of all, I think we have to leverage the 4th overall pick into one of three franchise left tackles. Guys who can actually play the position are in crazy high demand, and if you wait until the second round, you get a guy who might end up being Tony Ugoh or Duane Brown. This seems like the type of player that Bruce Campbell might be. A fringe LT prospect who should make a good RT. But there are also a lot of really interesting RTs in this draft that, once we nail down the LT position (or at least we think we do) opens up the rest of the draft to address other spot on our line at a leisurely pace.

I have Anthony Davis and Russell Okung 1 and 1a at LT on my draft board. I'm more worried about Brian Bulaga at that position. One of the advantages of picking in the top five is that, even if Bulaga is the best prospect, you don't have to worry about taking him that high if the marginal value between him and say, Charles Brown, or my guy Trent Williams, or even linemate Kyle Calloway isn't really all that great.

If it was me, I would take Okung. I can see the allure of Davis, however. He's perhaps more of a natural athlete, even if he's more raw as a lineman. If one's gone, I'd take the other. I don't think either is as good as Michael Oher, but then again, there isn't a pass rusher in this draft as strong as Orakpo.

I'm very skeptical to say that we will pick at 37 in the second round. I think we'll either trade up for a quarterback/defensive stud, or down for a receiver/safety or for value. If we stay there, I like trying to grab an elite interior lineman if Iupati or Pouncey is there, or a very good right tackle prospect if they aren't.

In the 4th round, I would take Matt Tennant if he falls that far, but there's also a good chance that we might use this pick to trade up from the second round back to the bottom of the first. After the fourth round, we're getting into a strict BPA range. Developmental tackles on the cheap are always fun (Sam Young?), but adding a guard tends to offer better long term prospects, particularly if we solidify the tackle situation in the early rounds.

I also want to sign Casey Wiegmann to a 1 year, $1.5 million deal if we don't land Pouncey or Tennant.
Sorry for putting you ahead of schedule Tripp. LOL. It's just that I was getting of sick of everyone breaking down the the whole drafting a QB like they were John Clayton, meanwhile when anyone would mention the offensive line the typical response is "oh, Shanhan can build an offensive line with just about anyone."

In regards to your post, when looking at both Okung and Davis, if we drafted Davis could he start at LT right away?

Also, any thoughts on Bruce Campbell? Could he be available later in the first round if we were somehow to trade down from the 4th spot?
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Old 02-19-2010, 02:31 AM   #71
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

If we opted to trade dockery what would bring for us?
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Old 02-19-2010, 02:39 AM   #72
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

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If we opted to trade dockery what would bring for us?
I highly doubt that we would trade the only starter-caliber offensive lineman we have on the team.
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Old 02-19-2010, 08:02 AM   #73
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

I think Rodger Saffold from Indiana might be a good 4th-5th round choice

Been hearing some talk of Selvish Capers in the 2nd round for the Skins this week. Not sure what to make of that.
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:26 AM   #74
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

We don't need no stinkin linemen !!!!!!
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:27 AM   #75
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Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line

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Originally Posted by CultBrennan59 View Post
Supposedly McDaniels won't retain him/tender him, because he wants bigger OLineman.
From the Denver Post's Mike Klis.

Quote:
I believe Kuper will be back. Yes, McDaniels wants to strengthen his offensive interior line. And yes, Kuper, as a right guard, is an interior lineman who was drafted by the Broncos in 2006 as a prototype zone blocker. But Kuper is too young, too talented, too competitive, and even as a restricted free agent, too inexpensive to let go. Chris Kupers are simply too difficult to find to let go.
Any marquee RFA is extremely likely to be tendered or signed to a new contract by their team. This is why I criticize the QB-first camp, as much as Shanny can build an offensive line, he's going to have to do it with older and less talented players.

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We don't need no stinkin linemen !!!!!!
Nice!
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