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Old 04-10-2010, 09:30 AM   #16
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Re: building for a superbowl?

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Old 04-10-2010, 09:44 AM   #17
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Re: building for a superbowl?

I think that the moves that Shanahan and Allen are making this year are to win now and in the future. What's the one position that teams struggle the most to get 'right'? The QB position. With the McNabb trade we have immediately (and dramatically IMO) improved that position for hopefully the next 3-4 years. Perhaps that could have been done with a draft pick as well but at least some people thought that was done twice already in the past 10 years with the Ramsey and Campbell picks. The risk/reward on McNabb is far less than on a drafted QB.

The other moves they've made, adding depth to the backfield, signing Hicks to a 3 year deal, extending M. Williams to a 3 year deal, bringing in Buchanon, signing Ke'Moataue (or whatever), etc. are all moves to win and build depth at positions. They are not going to be able to change a stale, poorly constructed 4-12 roster overnight-especially with the restrictions on free agents this year.

I get the whole notion of 'stockpiling draft picks' but it takes a couple of things in order to do that. We need to have players that are desirable in a trade that we can move without suffering an impact on the roster. For all of the geniuses who want to trade Cooley, what happens if Davis pops a hamstring week 2? Then what? For everyone who is saying trade Landry and Moss, are you that comfortable with Chris Horton and Marko Mitchell? Those same fans will be bitching up a storm come October when we're sitting at 2-5 and those players are thriving elsewhere.

The same goes for trading down in the draft. There's a simple reason why that seldom, if ever happens anymore. No team wants to be on the hook for top 5 guaranteed money unless they are targeting a very specific player like the Jets with Sanchez last year and they didn't get a ransom of picks.

Teams like the Eagles and Pats didn't stock up by depleting their roster of impact players, they used players that fit a role well for them but they had depth enough to absorb the loss. Those teams also were not stuck in a position of drafting for need with every pick, they had a talented enough roster that they could afford to not take a player at a position because they had a gaping hole, which is a position that we've found ourselves in for more than a decade and quite frankly most teams are in as well.

Sorry for the long post, but to answer the OP question, yes, I believe we are building for a Super Bowl but not THIS Super Bowl.
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Old 04-10-2010, 09:50 AM   #18
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Re: building for a superbowl?

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Originally Posted by Paintrain View Post
I think that the moves that Shanahan and Allen are making this year are to win now and in the future. What's the one position that teams struggle the most to get 'right'? The QB position. With the McNabb trade we have immediately (and dramatically IMO) improved that position for hopefully the next 3-4 years. Perhaps that could have been done with a draft pick as well but at least some people thought that was done twice already in the past 10 years with the Ramsey and Campbell picks. The risk/reward on McNabb is far less than on a drafted QB.

The other moves they've made, adding depth to the backfield, signing Hicks to a 3 year deal, extending M. Williams to a 3 year deal, bringing in Buchanon, signing Ke'Moataue (or whatever), etc. are all moves to win and build depth at positions. They are not going to be able to change a stale, poorly constructed 4-12 roster overnight-especially with the restrictions on free agents this year.

I get the whole notion of 'stockpiling draft picks' but it takes a couple of things in order to do that. We need to have players that are desirable in a trade that we can move without suffering an impact on the roster. For all of the geniuses who want to trade Cooley, what happens if Davis pops a hamstring week 2? Then what? For everyone who is saying trade Landry and Moss, are you that comfortable with Chris Horton and Marko Mitchell? Those same fans will be bitching up a storm come October when we're sitting at 2-5 and those players are thriving elsewhere.

The same goes for trading down in the draft. There's a simple reason why that seldom, if ever happens anymore. No team wants to be on the hook for top 5 guaranteed money unless they are targeting a very specific player like the Jets with Sanchez last year and they didn't get a ransom of picks.

Teams like the Eagles and Pats didn't stock up by depleting their roster of impact players, they used players that fit a role well for them but they had depth enough to absorb the loss. Those teams also were not stuck in a position of drafting for need with every pick, they had a talented enough roster that they could afford to not take a player at a position because they had a gaping hole, which is a position that we've found ourselves in for more than a decade and quite frankly most teams are in as well.

Sorry for the long post, but to answer the OP question, yes, I believe we are building for a Super Bowl but not THIS Super Bowl.
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Old 04-10-2010, 10:36 AM   #19
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Re: building for a superbowl?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paintrain View Post
I think that the moves that Shanahan and Allen are making this year are to win now and in the future. What's the one position that teams struggle the most to get 'right'? The QB position. With the McNabb trade we have immediately (and dramatically IMO) improved that position for hopefully the next 3-4 years. Perhaps that could have been done with a draft pick as well but at least some people thought that was done twice already in the past 10 years with the Ramsey and Campbell picks. The risk/reward on McNabb is far less than on a drafted QB.

The other moves they've made, adding depth to the backfield, signing Hicks to a 3 year deal, extending M. Williams to a 3 year deal, bringing in Buchanon, signing Ke'Moataue (or whatever), etc. are all moves to win and build depth at positions. They are not going to be able to change a stale, poorly constructed 4-12 roster overnight-especially with the restrictions on free agents this year.

I get the whole notion of 'stockpiling draft picks' but it takes a couple of things in order to do that. We need to have players that are desirable in a trade that we can move without suffering an impact on the roster. For all of the geniuses who want to trade Cooley, what happens if Davis pops a hamstring week 2? Then what? For everyone who is saying trade Landry and Moss, are you that comfortable with Chris Horton and Marko Mitchell? Those same fans will be bitching up a storm come October when we're sitting at 2-5 and those players are thriving elsewhere.

The same goes for trading down in the draft. There's a simple reason why that seldom, if ever happens anymore. No team wants to be on the hook for top 5 guaranteed money unless they are targeting a very specific player like the Jets with Sanchez last year and they didn't get a ransom of picks.

Teams like the Eagles and Pats didn't stock up by depleting their roster of impact players, they used players that fit a role well for them but they had depth enough to absorb the loss. Those teams also were not stuck in a position of drafting for need with every pick, they had a talented enough roster that they could afford to not take a player at a position because they had a gaping hole, which is a position that we've found ourselves in for more than a decade and quite frankly most teams are in as well.

Sorry for the long post, but to answer the OP question, yes, I believe we are building for a Super Bowl but not THIS Super Bowl.
Guess that means me ...

If anyone pops a hamstring, snaps their Achilles, tears an ACL, it harms the team, there's nothing you can do about it. You could say the same for the Eagles if Kolb tears his rotator cuff in Week 3 of preseason.

Trading away marquee players in exchange for gobbling up multiple draft picks obviously has its drawbacks. That's the biggest risk you're taking if you go that route, but injuries can still happen regardless.

The crux of the issue here is whether you rely on young, unproven, but inexpensive players with anticipated potential or do you cast those aside for proven veterans. Looks like we're opting for the latter, and I'm willing to put more trust in Shanahan and Allen to do that rather than Vinny Cerrato.

Last edited by Beemnseven; 04-10-2010 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 04-10-2010, 11:24 AM   #20
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Re: building for a superbowl?

If a team makes it to the playoffs, they have a good shot at the SB. Just look at the Cardinals a few years back for an example. Everyone thought they were just a playoff team but not a super bowl caliber team and they were a game winning drive away from the ring.

Also, McNabb is still a very capable QB. I believe the Eagles made a terrible mistake by not only pissing him off but trading him to a team that plays them twice. He might say it's just another game but that's press conference speak. He wants to prove to them that he's still got it
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Old 04-10-2010, 11:30 AM   #21
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Re: building for a superbowl?

I do nt think taht it is far fetched to have our team buliy as a perennial contender within the next 2-3 years. Having an established QB will help us accelerate the learning curve for our young receivers, OL (the one's we will be drafting), and our heir apparent at QB(?).
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Old 04-10-2010, 11:50 AM   #22
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Re: building for a superbowl?

I honestly don't remember being this EXCITED before any season in a long time. The move to get McNabb was amazing on our part.. The guy is still a top 10 QB and is Hungry to win a SB.
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Old 04-10-2010, 12:09 PM   #23
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Re: building for a superbowl?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemnseven View Post
Guess that means me ...

If anyone pops a hamstring, snaps their Achilles, tears an ACL, it harms the team, there's nothing you can do about it. You could say the same for the Eagles if Kolb tears his rotator cuff in Week 3 of preseason.

Trading away marquee players in exchange for gobbling up multiple draft picks obviously has its drawbacks. That's the biggest risk you're taking if you go that route, but injuries can still happen regardless.

The crux of the issue here is whether you rely on young, unproven, but inexpensive players with anticipated potential or do you cast those aside for proven veterans. Looks like we're opting for the latter, and I'm willing to put more trust in Shanahan and Allen to do that rather than Vinny Cerrato.
Of course, injuries can happen at any turn but TE is the one position we have legitimate depth, by which I mean if one player goes out there is NO dropoff in production from that position and you want to eliminate that depth? Hell, if we were 3 deep and saw great potential out of our 3rd TE then sure, let's look at it but do you remember what happened last season when we were starting our 4th RG of the season, our 3rd LT of the season and our 4th RB? We don't have the luxury of trading one of the best young players on our team for a hope of a couple of college kids. That's just foolish if you ask me.

Honestly, on the open market, what would Cooley get us? Maybe a mid 2nd round pick? He's not elite enough to garner a bounty of picks, certainly not the value to build a team around.

Which 'young inexpensive players with anticipated potential' have we 'cast aside' for proven veterans? Quinton Ganther?
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Old 04-10-2010, 12:46 PM   #24
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Re: building for a superbowl?

Skinster, I don't mean to be a jerk but that was a long arse rant.

I can't say I honestly read the whole thing but from other peoples answers I'm agreeing with them.

#1- Be happy knowing Cerrato is out.
#2- We have an awsome GM now or atleast an upgrade.
#3- We have a boni fide HC again.

Shanahan alwasy has had one of the top offenses in the league if not the #1. We will be good soon enough. No different then Gibbs but Gibbs problem was he had too many cooks and everyone had a different phylosophy. Shanahan has been allowed to bring in a GM he likes or the GM has been allowed to bring in a HC he likes not sure which came first other then to say Allen was hired first. All the coach's will be on the same page.

My only issue now is defense. I'm not sold on Haslett. He has not done anything special. Now Haslett has talented players. He takes over a defense that was top 5. I'm expecting a drop off because of a new scheme but it needs to return quickly.

Are we SB contenders? Hell I've been in rebuild mode up until we picked up McNabb. Now it looks like they think they could make a run at the playoffs or more. They know better then me but I'd still prefer rebuild. You can't get rid of all the aged players in one yr and fix this mess. So if they each yr pick up younger talent to start taking over then I'm fine with their idea of rebuild.
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Old 04-10-2010, 12:58 PM   #25
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Re: building for a superbowl?

Paintrain I agree with you on the whole not throwing away all our impact players for picks only to have the ones left get injured and we have no depth.

but do we need 2 pass catching TE's. It has been reported that Shanahan only utilized 1 pass catching and 1 blocking TE. It might be interesting to see how they are utilized though.

Same with Landry. We have Landry who I believe is an awsome SS but not that great at FS. but we also have Doughty, and Horton. Doughty is just as good at SS and Horton might be even better. We could afford to trade one. I would have said Doughty but his name is not flashy so we won't get great value like we would have to Landry.

Then there is the issue of Carter. If he's on page to give it a try then good. But if he's not the proto typical LB/DE in this scheme we might as well trade him for mid round picks.

QB is another position. I feel like Tampa now. We have:

McNabb
Campbell
Grossman
Brennan
Bartel

Bartel is probably a non issue. He's fodder unless he shines for some reason. K.Shanahan has mentioned he likes Colt but what OC is going to say "na I don't like him" if he's on their team? Hopefully we can get decent value for JC. Maybe get our second rounder back. That would leave:

McNabb and Grossman, who have both been to a SB and lost. Both are eager to win.
Brennan, who might turn out to be great in this system.
Bartel, who is simply camp fodder.
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Old 04-10-2010, 01:04 PM   #26
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Re: building for a superbowl?

I think we are expecting more of the same. Not true! My expectations are low and mental defenses are high. Kind of like the first year Tom Brady took over in N.E. What do think of that!?
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Old 04-10-2010, 01:24 PM   #27
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Re: building for a superbowl?

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Originally Posted by SBXVII View Post
Paintrain I agree with you on the whole not throwing away all our impact players for picks only to have the ones left get injured and we have no depth.

but do we need 2 pass catching TE's. It has been reported that Shanahan only utilized 1 pass catching and 1 blocking TE. It might be interesting to see how they are utilized though.

Same with Landry. We have Landry who I believe is an awsome SS but not that great at FS. but we also have Doughty, and Horton. Doughty is just as good at SS and Horton might be even better. We could afford to trade one. I would have said Doughty but his name is not flashy so we won't get great value like we would have to Landry.

Then there is the issue of Carter. If he's on page to give it a try then good. But if he's not the proto typical LB/DE in this scheme we might as well trade him for mid round picks.

QB is another position. I feel like Tampa now. We have:

McNabb
Campbell
Grossman
Brennan
Bartel

Bartel is probably a non issue. He's fodder unless he shines for some reason. K.Shanahan has mentioned he likes Colt but what OC is going to say "na I don't like him" if he's on their team? Hopefully we can get decent value for JC. Maybe get our second rounder back. That would leave:

McNabb and Grossman, who have both been to a SB and lost. Both are eager to win.
Brennan, who might turn out to be great in this system.
Bartel, who is simply camp fodder.
I'd rather see what Shanny does with 2 pass catching TE before saying that he can't utilize both of them. If we move anyone young, I'd be more ok with Landry just because he hasn't lived up to his promise and appears to be a faster Roy Williams with the same coverage and tackling angle liabilities but without the impact plays. Carter is a bad fit so if we can get a 3rd for him I'd be fine with that as well, Chris Wilson can fill his LB role.

The QB situation will work itself out. The only way we get a 2nd for Campbell is if there is a late run at the end of the 1st for QB (Clausen, Tebow, McCoy) and some team like the Bills is stuck without someone who holds that round value. Other than that, we're lucky to get a high 4th for him.
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Old 04-10-2010, 02:14 PM   #28
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Re: building for a superbowl?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paintrain View Post
I think that the moves that Shanahan and Allen are making this year are to win now and in the future. What's the one position that teams struggle the most to get 'right'? The QB position. With the McNabb trade we have immediately (and dramatically IMO) improved that position for hopefully the next 3-4 years. Perhaps that could have been done with a draft pick as well but at least some people thought that was done twice already in the past 10 years with the Ramsey and Campbell picks. The risk/reward on McNabb is far less than on a drafted QB.

The other moves they've made, adding depth to the backfield, signing Hicks to a 3 year deal, extending M. Williams to a 3 year deal, bringing in Buchanon, signing Ke'Moataue (or whatever), etc. are all moves to win and build depth at positions. They are not going to be able to change a stale, poorly constructed 4-12 roster overnight-especially with the restrictions on free agents this year.

I get the whole notion of 'stockpiling draft picks' but it takes a couple of things in order to do that. We need to have players that are desirable in a trade that we can move without suffering an impact on the roster. For all of the geniuses who want to trade Cooley, what happens if Davis pops a hamstring week 2? Then what? For everyone who is saying trade Landry and Moss, are you that comfortable with Chris Horton and Marko Mitchell? Those same fans will be bitching up a storm come October when we're sitting at 2-5 and those players are thriving elsewhere.

The same goes for trading down in the draft. There's a simple reason why that seldom, if ever happens anymore. No team wants to be on the hook for top 5 guaranteed money unless they are targeting a very specific player like the Jets with Sanchez last year and they didn't get a ransom of picks.

Teams like the Eagles and Pats didn't stock up by depleting their roster of impact players, they used players that fit a role well for them but they had depth enough to absorb the loss. Those teams also were not stuck in a position of drafting for need with every pick, they had a talented enough roster that they could afford to not take a player at a position because they had a gaping hole, which is a position that we've found ourselves in for more than a decade and quite frankly most teams are in as well.

Sorry for the long post, but to answer the OP question, yes, I believe we are building for a Super Bowl but not THIS Super Bowl.
I get what you are saying about having talent now while building towards the future, and as a matter of principal I agree with you, but I feel that this situation does not apply to our team right now due to what I feel to be too many holes on our roster. My deal isn't that we have alot of holes now (which I do feel that we do), but is that in a couple years we will have significantly more holes due to the age of our team. A few players that we expect to currently have an impact (fletcher, rabach, carter, moss, daniels, all our RBs, etc) in reality probably will be somewhat irrelevant a couple yers down the road, and I do not see that we have the means to replace these players within the next few years. On top of that we are not accounting for the players we might lose (i.e.Rogers), and the players that play might just slip (i.e Hall...at 30 some quick CBs just lose their speed and cant make up for it). I do not want to bank on free agency to replace these guys, we do not know who will be available or what the cap situation will be. I also do not think that McNabb will be able to carry us in a couple of years; but I do think he will be good enough (like Elway was in his SB years) to win it for us IF we have the necessary talent around him, which I feel like we will not have.
And for the record, I still think that Shannahan is a great coach, just not great with personnel decisions.
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Old 04-10-2010, 02:19 PM   #29
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Re: building for a superbowl?

Here is another view. Look at the cowboys the last few years. Would you say that they had the same issues with holes on their team. Infact, they were stacked with great players (better than ours?) and can't make it to or through the playoffs. Winning comes down to talent, brains, ability but goes nowhere without heart. I hope our team is loaded with heart and passion. That's just me.
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Old 04-10-2010, 02:46 PM   #30
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Re: building for a superbowl?

I see us making a few trades on draft day to get some of those picks back...but only time will tell. Regardless of how you feel about the McNabb trade ( I like it ) we do still need to get younger across the entire team. I think that's something we all can agree on. But I believe in Shanaman's logic and I think he will be good for us...eventually I believe he will hand over the reigns to his son...kyyyyyllllleeeeeeeeeeeeee to take over.
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