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Old 12-02-2004, 07:08 PM   #16
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"Unity? You don't think the defense hates this right now?"

Of course this is YOU saying this and I haven't heard this from the ones who actually are playing ON the team so, yeah, I believe he has restored unity.

Of course any of us on here are light years ahead of proven coaches like Joe Gibbs because we've had years of experience playing Madden football on the playstation...and that counts for alot more than 30+ years of actually coaching football in real life.
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Old 12-02-2004, 07:49 PM   #17
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gibbs and parcells are both being toasted in the media,and they are the 2 best coaches in the league.all you have to is look at the 87 strike team that went 3-0 to see how much the game has changed since then.the skins and the cowboys have a better chance now to win than they have had in the last 10 years.if dick vermeil can figure out how to adapt,then parcells and joe gibbs damn sure can.
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Old 12-02-2004, 08:07 PM   #18
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Of course this is YOU saying this and I haven't heard this from the ones who actually are playing ON the team so, yeah, I believe he has restored unity.
That's a sentiment that many experts and EX COACHES say they believe is happening. No matter who the coach is players won't come out and say Offense better get it going.

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Of course any of us on here are light years ahead of proven coaches like Joe Gibbs
Thanks to skinsguy for pointing this out. I know it may come as a shock, but I don't have years of coaching experience under my belt. I will forever stop speculating and giving my opinion as to what we should do, because god knows if you're not an NFL coach you can't add any usefull input to this board.
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Old 12-02-2004, 11:34 PM   #19
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So tell me which "experts" and which "ex coaches" have stated such? Because I haven't heard such from any.

"Thanks to skinsguy for pointing this out."

Meant to be sarcasm and the rest of the quote should have included "because we've played our Madden football games on playstation"

"I know it may come as a shock, but I don't have years of coaching experience under my belt."

No actually it wasn't a shock at all it was quite obvious. I'm not saying you can't have an opinion, by all means have an opinion, but it just sounds like to me your quite frustrated when some of the rest of us don't listen or believe every word the media spews out of its mouth or that our opinions and faith in this coach isn't formed by what the media says. Sure our season has been rough, but then again comparing Gibbs' FIRST season back to Steve Spurriers SECOND season when he should have improved the team is comparing apples to oranges. I mean so what if we did score a few more points..the team dropped from 7-9 to 5-11 AND Spurrier quit on us. So, with that I would rather have a guy who promises to stick it out through it all and try to get this team headed in the right direction...we might end up 5-11..heck we might end up 3-13, but I promise you Gibbs will improve this team far more than what it has done this year. It might take 'em 3 years, and I for one am paitent enough to wait it out if it means returning us to greatness.
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Old 12-03-2004, 07:48 AM   #20
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For one Jimmy Johnson, JB, Sonny/Sam Huff show on Mondays, and I've heard numbers of countless forgettable guys say it.

Skinsguy: Ever since Gibbs was named coach I was reluctant to say that he's going to be the king of football in this down. When the media was parading that the Redskins were going to the super bowl and this board was so excited that we will finally eliminate mistakes, I stayed cautious like I always do. I hoped Joe Gibbs would take us to the playoffs, and I thought we'd do at least around 500 (hell, right now 500 would put us in the NFC picture.) I'm sure if you ask anyone who remembers my posts around there they also lacked enthusiasm.

The problem for me isn't our record. It's how we've lost the games. Playcalling, clock management, and silly mistakes. I'm not so sure this offense still works, ex-players would say that they would tell the other team where they're going. The defenses are more agile and faster than yester-year and I'm curious if it can win. We have enough players to have a middle of the pack offense.

Now, just because you want to blind yourself with optimism and fail to even see any wrong-doing at all on Gibbs' record then that's your perogative. A few games have been lost by WRs dropping balls, but most we haven't really been in a position to win due to screen passes on 4th and 8 plays. I watch what the media and normally take it for a grain of salt, unless someone who used to play a lot or someone I respect comes out and says something.

I'm not expecting anyone to believe what the media says. I have the ability to form my own opinions, and I hope you do to instead of following Gibbs like a sheep and refusing to look at him objectively.

I also am willing to give any coach 3 years to impliment their system and get it working at a decent rate. If Spurrier didn't get it that year I would have let him have another year. I still think Spurrier was forced out. That little Hey, I didn't quit meant a lot more than I think we realized. I think Joe Gibbs wanted to coach because Coy Gibbs said he wanted to learn the trade. Where else would he go besides here. Atlanta? He'd probably try to trade Vick so he could get someone who makes less mistakes.
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Old 12-03-2004, 11:19 AM   #21
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First of all, these guys said it would take Joe Gibbs LONGER to get this team turned around, but they’re not saying that Gibbs can’t do it. The only ones I have heard that said the game has passed Gibbs by is Terry Bradshaw (and anybody would be a fool to believe what he says), and the media.

Secondly, just because I am backing my coach up does not mean it’s a suggestion of my following Joe Gibbs blindly. It also does not point to my refusal to look upon the coach as objectively as I can be. I have stated and admitted over and over again that Gibbs has made mistakes – plenty of them. Gibbs has been out of coaching for 12 years, so I give him a year to play a little trial and error. By the second year, I believe a coach knows what he has as far as players and he sees what adjustments should be made in the system. I have all the confidence in the world that Gibbs is smart enough to see both and make the proper changes.

Thirdly, I do not get this crap about being “blinded with optimism.” I just treat that as some sort of cop out or inability to exhibit patience. The closer you get to thirty and beyond, the more you’ll come to appreciate a little patience. Knowing we have an older coach who will have an agonizing amount of it, we as fans have to realize that is how he is going to dictate his team. The “win now at all cost” just is not long term, and I would much rather go through the growing pains we are facing right now and have a team that will play solid and perform at a high level season in and season out, than to have one year of a good team and continue as a losing franchise the next season. And, going back to looking at things objectively, I believe if one actually follows that premise, they’ll find that we really have not been THAT far off from winning more than what we have so far. Seeing things through objective eyes means also seeing the whole picture, not just from the offensive point of view.

As far giving a coach three years, why don’t you do just that? If that is the case, why complain about what all he has done wrong with this team and back him for what he hopes to accomplish while he’s in Washington? Why compare him to what Steve Spurrier has done in Washington? There is no comparison. Steve Spurrier couldn’t cut it and he quit regardless of what you might hope to believe. Spurrier admitted he was not cut out for the NFL and would much rather coach in college. For Pete’s sake, talk about being down on an offensive system, everybody could see Spurrier’s system having no pass protection in it whatsoever; Ramsey’s injuries could attest to that. I still, however, felt that Spurrier could have done more to reinforce pass protection, but he felt the need to quit. I’ll continue to back Joe Gibbs and recognize what mistakes he will make along the way as well as commend him on the progress he’s making with the team as well. If he feels he stands in the way of progress, I’ll back the next guy that comes in just like I have done with Turner, Marty, and Spurrier. I will not, however, burn a Hall of Fame coach at the stake just because he does not magically make our dreams come true after one season.
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Old 12-03-2004, 11:34 AM   #22
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nice take skinsguy
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Old 12-03-2004, 12:26 PM   #23
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I saw we bring in a new O cordinator and let that p erson call the plays. Gibbs can still be the coach, and run practice, and make the plays, but someone else needs to do the playcallign right now.
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Old 12-03-2004, 01:03 PM   #24
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Skinsguy - show me one place where I've said I don't think Joe Gibbs will turn it around and he should retire? I've said people in other places have a different take, and I say that it could happen, but I've said in multiple places that I think he will turn the team around.

I'm all for building a team and I was all for Spurrier staying one more year as long as he changed OLine and D Coordinator coaches. In my opinion they hurt the team in a horrible fashion. I read an interview with Samuels saying Helton (Sp?) tried to change the way he's blocked ever since college, so it obviously didn't work. Spurrier needs tons of work on his system, no one can say he didn't. Like you don't want to put all the blame on Gibbs, I don't feel the same blame should be put on Spurrier. Someone said it was a joke for his son to be the WR coach. Last year we had less dropped balls than this year, and what exactly is Coy Gibbs job? Isn't he quality control but working primarily with the receivers? Football coaches are a lot like Presidents, they bring in their buddies and jobs like that is like being announced the ambassador to Jamacia!

I will continue to point out every problem I see with Gibbs system, which thus far hasn't come close to working, and I will also commend him. I thought his play-calling was improved in Pittsburgh, still lacked balance but I understand why we wanted to pass on fairly bad corners with a soggy field.

So since Im giving someone three years I shouldn't dare say they're making a mistake now? Please. He gave Mark Brunell half the season when he only played half a game that was anything worth a damn. I really feel Gibbs has dropped the balls in many areas and has alone given away 2-3 wins simply by not changing the QB situation.

As far as patience. Thanks to the salary cap, it's near impossible to be a contender every year. While we still have big name players Portis, Arrington, etc we will not be able to field a great team around them. We'll have mediocre talent most places and spectacular talent in a few. How many teams are able to stay performing at a great level today? Not many. Patriots and the Eagles are the only two that have been good solid for the last 3-4 years. A few have been middle of the pack, but not consistant contenders. Patience really doesn't have a huge place in today's NFL. It's win now and rebuild.
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Old 12-03-2004, 01:39 PM   #25
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I think we do agree on many things there Daseal. I don't put as much blame on Gibbs (or as much as he is going to place on himself) as what many possibly will. I might be more of a critic next season when I feel improvements should be taking place. Certainly by the third season I would expect this team to be in the playoffs at least.

We certainly disagree on alot of things. Possibly yanking Brunell out earlier might have put us in a better spot to win....but then again how many more points have we scored in a game with Ramsey in? Not blaming Ramsey, but he himself pointed out he wasn't ready and didn't understand the system fully. He believes he understands it now, and I'm glad of that. It goes back to WRs not catching the ball consistantly. Possibly this is a result of Coy Gibbs' inexperience in coaching...but at the sametime, the WRs get paid the big $$$ to catch the football and I can't see how a coach is going to make a difference when the WR drops a pass that hits him in between the numbers.

I don't believe its impossible to be a contender every year in the age of salary caps and free agency. Does it make it more challenging? Of course it does; but not impossible. The mentioned teams are good because they have good GMs and excellent coaches. I Think our GM sucks for the most part, but I think we have one of the best coaching staffs in the league. I feel if a team can get into the post season consistantly then that is a good team. Whether if they play on the level of New England or Philly, that's a different story. There are plenty of teams in the league that are GOOD teams that make the playoffs on a regular or semi-regular basis.

Speaking of the Eagles, its funny you mentioned them. What was Reid's record in his first season? The point is he was paitent (yes patience is a huge thing in the NFL still) and made sure he got the components he needed to have a good solid team. So, his team has been solid year in and year out. He's had players to come and go, but ya know..it goes back to coaching what is there! If those players want to play and give it all they have, then the team is going to be successful.

I believe we can have the same success in Washington with Gibbs. He's proven it in the past and now he has to prove it again.
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Old 12-03-2004, 02:03 PM   #26
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It doesn't matter who is coaching the WR's, you still have to catch the damn ball when it comes in your direction. You can't coach hands.

Gardner has always had this problem and probably always will. Coles I'm willing to cut some slack, he's really banged up with his toe, finger, hip and a concussion from that nasty shot from Ray-Ray. The injuries are costing him his focus in my opinion.
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Old 12-03-2004, 04:53 PM   #27
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yes just cos gibbs gets a little criticism right now doesnt mean he wont turn it around. he has in my mind the worst team in the NFL, at least relative to the talent. i def dont count SF and MIA is arguable. so its safe to say that JG is stinkin it up now, but i feel he'll get it together. it's his job to take criticism, he gets 6 million a yr. to me its called having a spine and taking the bad whens its bad and good when its good. right now joe gibbs gameplans suck, facts a fact
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Old 12-03-2004, 06:19 PM   #28
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What would you suggest as a gameplan?
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Old 12-03-2004, 08:13 PM   #29
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VTSkins.. You seriously think we lack talent even close to on a level of San Fran? We have decent receivers, an up-and-coming TE, some raw talent on the O line, a top HB, and a good young QB. Definitely needs work, however our defense is incrediable right now even though it's banged up.

My gameplan vs the Giants is very simple. You need a mix of screenpasses, counter plays, zoneblocking stretch plays, lots of 7-12 yard passes, mainly over the middle which seems to be what worked well last year, sometimes line 4-5 WRs wide and run the ball, I think Portis is the key to our wins. I'd like to see him get more catches out of the backfield. Let Ramsey start with high percentage throws, then start getting braver.
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Old 12-04-2004, 08:45 AM   #30
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Actually, for people on the opposite sides of the debate, Daseal and I agree on quite a bit>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daseal
Skinsguy: Ever since Gibbs was named coach I was reluctant to say that he's going to be the king of football in this down. When the media was parading that the Redskins were going to the super bowl and this board was so excited that we will finally eliminate mistakes, I stayed cautious like I always do. I hoped Joe Gibbs would take us to the playoffs, and I thought we'd do at least around 500 (hell, right now 500 would put us in the NFC picture.) I'm sure if you ask anyone who remembers my posts around there they also lacked enthusiasm.
Although I remember being a little more hopeful than Daseal, I was in a similar mindset. .500 sounded a little disappointing, considering my (continued) strong feelings about our talent level. When Bill Parcells said last year that we had one of the best rosters in football, that said to me (and to many others) that the problem didn't lie entirely with the players. The elimination of mistakes, and there were plenty of them last year, would amount to wins, and a winning season.

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Originally Posted by Daseal
The problem for me isn't our record. It's how we've lost the games. Playcalling, clock management, and silly mistakes. I'm not so sure this offense still works, ex-players would say that they would tell the other team where they're going. The defenses are more agile and faster than yester-year and I'm curious if it can win. We have enough players to have a middle of the pack offense.
Playcalling, clock management, and silly mistakes. Truer words were never spoken. One of the real hallmarks of the first Gibbs era was adaptability. This seemed to have been forgotten by Coach Gibbs in the first few games. We have a RB who is among the league's fastest players, and we called running plays that required a guard to pull across the line before he hit the hole. Much has been said of Gibbs's first season, where he went 0-5 with a pass-heavy offense before revamping his style to pound the ball. The lesson should have been "style your offense toward your personnel", not "pound the ball". When healthy, we have enough players for a top-tier offense - provided we taylor the offense toward those players.

The clock management issue also points to adaptability. Shifting formations is fine - if it confuses the defense. With a playclock five seconds quicker than it was upon his retirement, Gibbs needs to know that multiple shifts need to be complete that much faster. If the shift is done with three seconds left on the clock, the QB has no options if the play needs to be changed or amended. With the patchwork offensive line we have now, shifts should also be reduced to require athletes who aren't as skilled to stay in a three point stance for thirty seconds. I weigh 160 pounds and I wouldn't want to do that once,much less 50 times in three hours.

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Now, just because you want to blind yourself with optimism and fail to even see any wrong-doing at all on Gibbs' record then that's your perogative. A few games have been lost by WRs dropping balls, but most we haven't really been in a position to win due to screen passes on 4th and 8 plays. I watch what the media and normally take it for a grain of salt, unless someone who used to play a lot or someone I respect comes out and says something.
The playcalling is improving, though not fast enough. Brunell's gameplay hurt the development of this team in a number of ways. His inability to effectively throw the deep ball gave opposing defenses the freedom to stack the box on nearly every play. Portis was unable to break many big gains after the first game, because our opponents realized that they could put eight and nine guys up to stop the run, and Brunell couldn't kill them with the long ball. The defenses could rush four, and still have four men keyed on Portis. Not an effective way to build an offense. With Ramsey, safeties can't afford to cheat to the line on every play. It warmed my heart to see Darnerian McCants double-covered thirty yards downfield last week, because it meant the Steelers were as afraid of Ramsey as the run. Now that that fear exists, it can be exploited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daseal
I'm not expecting anyone to believe what the media says. I have the ability to form my own opinions, and I hope you do to instead of following Gibbs like a sheep and refusing to look at him objectively.

I also am willing to give any coach 3 years to impliment their system and get it working at a decent rate. If Spurrier didn't get it that year I would have let him have another year. I still think Spurrier was forced out. That little Hey, I didn't quit meant a lot more than I think we realized. I think Joe Gibbs wanted to coach because Coy Gibbs said he wanted to learn the trade. Where else would he go besides here. Atlanta? He'd probably try to trade Vick so he could get someone who makes less mistakes.
The media (and we) were too quick to annoint Joe Gibbs as a savior, and are too quick to make him a pariah. I also agree that three years is the proper evaluation period for a coach - provided the players are willing to feel the growing pains. As much as I wanted Spurrier to succeed (I think my admiration of him may be second to Daseal's, but few others), the discontinuity of year two after the promise of year one didn't leave OBC in a good position to do that. The arguement has always been that if Coach Spurrier put in more experienced assistants, he would have done better. Changing his support staff (again) in his third year would have created more change for the players to adapt to. It simply wasn't a good situation for Spurrier to succeed. That fact, more than anything else, forced Steve Spurrier to quit.

As for Coy Gibbs being the fulcrum upon which the Redskins coaching staff turns, I'm going to have to politely disagree. If Joe Gibbs wanted to get his son a position as a Quality Control Assistant (a position which would amount to "Clipboard Carrier" if not for unionized titles), he could have done that without returning to 20-hour workdays. I'm sure the Falcons, the team he owned part of and sold at less-than-premium prices to return, could have found a slot.

Coach Gibbs has had a number of obstacles to immediate success, some of them considerable. He doesn't have excuses, however, nor does he ask for them. Hence my signature.
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