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Game Tape: Ryan Torain

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Old 05-26-2011, 05:16 PM   #16
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Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain

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Old 05-26-2011, 05:22 PM   #17
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Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain

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I think Torain makes a lot of good things happen simply by moving his feet in the hole. He doesn't really ever run to daylight, so there's limited upside to his strong balance and lower body strength. The upside is that he'll keep running until two or three guys bring him down. But Keiland Williams, for example, runs with much better vision and often does find space to break a long run that Torain wouldn't have.

Ryan Torain is a hard runner who rarely gives up on a play. He's just not a particularly effective runner. But he's the kind of guy who will tear to shreds a terrible run defense (such as Tampa Bay) because there are gaping holes in the defense created by the blocking, and he usually powers through the first tackle and drags other players for extra yards.

Those yards after first contact aren't meaningless, but they don't outweigh the frequency at which a Torain carry can put the Redskins in long yardage.
I think we agree for about Torrain for the most part but I don't understand why you would call him ineffecitve or think he puts the team in long yardage any more then any other RB.

I think Torrain's vision and his ability as a runner are better then you give him credit for.
I'm not saying he's a special back because he's not; but he's decent.

He likes to keep the play frontside he's not looking to cutback, which limits the explosive runs he can make (on his own) in this scheme.
I also think Torrain is right not to look for the cutback because he doesn't cutback very well, which might be because of his upright running style and stiff hips.
He also lacks the top end speed to exploit the huge holes when then happen.

Torrain's best ability is that for some reason he's hard to bring down, he doesn't have wiggle nor does it look like he's running hard, but he's tough to bring down.

Torrain success as a runner comes from trusting/being dependent on the OL and his ability to stay up.

And at a 4.5 ypc carry clip he's not a bad back.


I like Keiland more then Torrain also, but Keiland is a young back who needs playing time (that he didn't get) to build confidence.

Where Torrain lacks the ability and is right not to make aggressive cutback moves I think Keiland does have the ability but lacks the confidence that comes with experience to make those risky cutbacks.
Therefore Kei often runs with the aim of picking up whatever yards are there at the POA much like Torrain.
But, I think Keiland has the potential to be more then a frontside runner.
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Old 05-26-2011, 05:23 PM   #18
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Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain

Dirt-
Are you taking requests?

Could you cut up Keiland Williams stuff from the Titans game?

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Old 05-26-2011, 06:19 PM   #19
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Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain

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I think we agree for about Torrain for the most part but I don't understand why you would call him ineffecitve or think he puts the team in long yardage any more then any other RB.

I think Torrain's vision and his ability as a runner are better then you give him credit for.
I'm not saying he's a special back because he's not; but he's decent.

He likes to keep the play frontside he's not looking to cutback, which limits the explosive runs he can make (on his own) in this scheme.
I also think Torrain is right not to look for the cutback because he doesn't cutback very well, which might be because of his upright running style and stiff hips.
He also lacks the top end speed to exploit the huge holes when then happen.

Torrain's best ability is that for some reason he's hard to bring down, he doesn't have wiggle nor does it look like he's running hard, but he's tough to bring down.

Torrain success as a runner comes from trusting/being dependent on the OL and his ability to stay up.

And at a 4.5 ypc carry clip he's not a bad back.


I like Keiland more then Torrain also, but Keiland is a young back who needs playing time (that he didn't get) to build confidence.

Where Torrain lacks the ability and is right not to make aggressive cutback moves I think Keiland does have the ability but lacks the confidence that comes with experience to make those risky cutbacks.
Therefore Kei often runs with the aim of picking up whatever yards are there at the POA much like Torrain.
But, I think Keiland has the potential to be more then a frontside runner.
All good points. I'll address the YPA argument here because it's something I haven't already covered above.

RBs get their value (well, rushing value, blocking/receiving are such underrated skills for RBs) in one of two ways, they must either consistently get positive yards that are also valuable, or they must provide the "shock" play, usually a long TD run, at a better than average rate. I struggle to put Torain in one of these two categories because he doesn't neatly fit.

Torain provides "shock" plays to a starving offense, which is why I believe some overvalue him in an offense like the Redskins. When Torain gets loose on the edge and moves beyond the linebackers and into the secondary with long strides, the Redskins move down the field fairly quickly. Torain has a knack for bunching his 17 yard gains together and moving the offense down the field. In the red zone, he's an average player. His skill set doesn't diminish in the red zones: his TDs scored are pretty proportional to all of his value statistics.

On the other hand, Torain would probably be better classified as a running back who gets his value from consistently getting positive yards. When the Redskins move down the field on the back of their running game, it's usually because Torain is stringing together a bunch of plays. So Torain gets and deserves the credit for these drives. But if we increase the sample to include all Redskins drives in the ten games Torain was active for, the offensive production doesn't look like it has a 4.5 YPC running back touching the football 17 times per game. Mostly because if we think of Torain as a 4.5 YPC back, we miss the boom or bust nature of his runs. Ryan Torain lost yards on 28 of his 164 (17%) carries. Clinton Portis, who was deemed too old and ineffective to earn a roster spot next year, lost yards on 6 of his 54 (9%) carries behind the same (arguably worse because it was earlier in the season) OL.

So it's not the OL that's causing Torain to lose yards so frequently. It might be Cooley and Sellers, but the reason I believe that those two are blowing so many blocks that causes Torain to be TFL is because he never cuts it up inside the tight end, so he's putting those players in a no win situation on blocking...a situation that Cooley and Fred Davis are actually winning way more likely than they should.

Like I said above, YPC is always going to overstate Torain's effectiveness on runs, but if he either stops losing yards so frequently or learns to take the ball to the house from 40+ yards out, you'll see that YPC extend over 5.0 and he'll be a positive value runner at that point. Right now, I think he's slightly negative in terms of value as a runner, although he's an above average pass blocker and he adds something to the passing attack as a receiver.
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Old 05-26-2011, 06:50 PM   #20
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Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain

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Dirt-
Are you taking requests?

Could you cut up Keiland Williams stuff from the Titans game?

BTW-You are my hero.
I take donations. Big donations and cup holders. Lol, but yeah, Titans game is a good game to study so making a Keiland Williams cut shouldn't be a problem. I'm glad though you asked for a running back. The Landry videos were fun to put together but sort of time consuming. The QB's were a little tedious to put together but at the same time easily the most informative. Running Backs are by far the easiest ones to assemble.

Actually the funny thing is InsaneBoost deserves a lot of the credit as he provided the raw material for virtually every single video I've posted the past week. Kind of hope he starts posting here again so I can thank him.
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Old 05-26-2011, 09:38 PM   #21
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Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain

I'm loving these. I was so disappointed in last season, I stopped watching after awhile. Other things contributed too. Thanks Dirt' and 'Boost.
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Old 05-26-2011, 11:26 PM   #22
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Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain

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I take donations. Big donations and cup holders. Lol, but yeah, Titans game is a good game to study so making a Keiland Williams cut shouldn't be a problem.
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Actually the funny thing is InsaneBoost deserves a lot of the credit as he provided the raw material for virtually every single video I've posted the past week. Kind of hope he starts posting here again so I can thank him.
InsaneBoost and tenyard torrents are under my favorites.
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Old 05-27-2011, 01:53 AM   #23
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Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain

Para 30gut-san.
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Old 05-27-2011, 09:27 AM   #24
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Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain

I personally love the way he played last year. He ran tough, made right thought we'd draft more Oline or possible corners. I hope they allow Torain to keep the job. He did a really good job last year when healthy. Hopefully he can stay healthy.
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Old 05-27-2011, 08:29 PM   #25
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Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain

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Para 30gut-san.
Kei ran had several nice cutback runs, far more then a remembered he showed nice moves/footwork/wiggle/pitter patter whatever you want to call it Kei made several cuts that I don't think Torrain can make.

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Old 05-27-2011, 10:10 PM   #26
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Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain

No problem. Actually I was able to put it together in 15 minutes by using the game book off NFL.com which showed me the exact points where Keiland touched the ball. So rather then having to watch every single offensive snap I was able to just scroll to the seconds leading up to the snap. Hell of a time saver.
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Old 05-27-2011, 10:10 PM   #27
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Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain

Thanks again Dirtbag!! Hard to judge him against these teams as I imagine anybody will look like a pro-bowler going up against those guys. That said, I'll make some my observations on him.

Positives:
1) Runs hard
2) Not easy to bring down


Negatives:
1) Has absolutely no game breaking speed
2) Seems to slow down to a halt for some cuts and jukes
3) Limited vision. Some of his cuts went the wrong way.


All in all, I like Ryan Torain and I'd rather have him in the backfield than Portis. However, I think Torain is at best a backup, and I have a feeling Helu is going to be starting if/when the season ever gets underway. That is on the condition that Helu actually absorbs Shanny's offense and understands what to do. (unlike a D. Thomas)
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Old 05-28-2011, 12:49 AM   #28
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Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain

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Kei ran had several nice cutback runs, far more then a remembered he showed nice moves/footwork/wiggle/pitter patter whatever you want to call it Kei made several cuts that I don't think Torrain can make.

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You my friend, are a beast.
Cheers-
I thought K. Williams looked below average at best on that film. Maybe I was looking at it wrong.
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Old 05-28-2011, 06:44 AM   #29
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Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain

If you have request please let me know. Doesn't mean I'll put together the video right away but I'll certainly try to get to it. Brian Orakpo, MeAngelo (not so much an insult as much as I love the way it rolls off the tongue), Los, Cooley, Moss, and McNabb are among the other players I've considered highlighting. Both Dallas games, Indy, New York Week 17, Houston, Tennessee, and Tampa are the easiest games for me to put together right now.

Speaking of short videos check out Anthony Armstrong Weeks 14-17. Lol, now I'm reminded why I hate receivers. Fletcher, Landry, Torain, Williams, and Grossman have all produced one game videos no shorter then 6 minutes. Armstrong on the other hand I can fit 4 weeks worth of games in one video.
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Old 05-31-2011, 03:21 AM   #30
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Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain

Ryan Torain vs Bears without sound can be found here. Seems to flow better though without sound as I was allowed to focus simply on getting the right shots rather then making sure I included relevant commentary.


Santana Moss Week 16 and 17 video will be available by the time most of you read this.
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