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Old 06-06-2011, 02:28 PM   #16
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

We are talking about the same McNabb who had the most passes over 50 yds throughout the first half of the season in an offense that could barely find a spark in the ground game over the same duration. The same dude who threw for over 400 yds in a game against Houston in an offense that, according to the coaches, his grasp of was tenuous at best. 5 of his 14 games he threw for over, or on the cusp of 300 yds and only 2 of those 14 games did he throw for under 200 yds. This all did occur in his first season learning a new offense in which the reads and progessions that he had become so accustom to in Philly after 12 years in the same system were completely reversed. Sometimes we as Redskins fans can be a fickle bunch. Buying into the sensationalized bs that spans the radio, TV, and other online sports media outlets. It's about time we use a little citical thought to define our opinions about this team and what would be best for its prolonged success. There's no way you can convince me that Grossman is a better option then McNabb unless the competition happens to be, who would make the best human ball warmer.
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Old 06-06-2011, 02:45 PM   #17
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

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Originally Posted by fanarchist View Post
We are talking about the same McNabb who had the most passes over 50 yds throughout the first half of the season in an offense that could barely find a spark in the ground game over the same duration. The same dude who threw for over 400 yds in a game against Houston in an offense that, according to the coaches, his grasp of was tenuous at best. 5 of his 14 games he threw for over, or on the cusp of 300 yds and only 2 of those 14 games did he throw for under 200 yds. This all did occur in his first season learning a new offense in which the reads and progessions that he had become so accustom to in Philly after 12 years in the same system were completely reversed. Sometimes we as Redskins fans can be a fickle bunch. Buying into the sensationalized bs that spans the radio, TV, and other online sports media outlets. It's about time we use a little citical thought to define our opinions about this team and what would be best for its prolonged success. There's no way you can convince me that Grossman is a better option then McNabb unless the competition happens to be, who would make the best human ball warmer.
Um, welcome to the board?

I don't think anyone went out of their way to say McNabb is a scrub or Grossman is a lost Manning but the evidence was pretty clear that the McNabb/Shanahan pairing wasn't a winner.
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Old 06-06-2011, 02:47 PM   #18
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

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We are talking about the same McNabb who had the most passes over 50 yds throughout the first half of the season in an offense that could barely find a spark in the ground game over the same duration. The same dude who threw for over 400 yds in a game against Houston in an offense that, according to the coaches, his grasp of was tenuous at best. 5 of his 14 games he threw for over, or on the cusp of 300 yds and only 2 of those 14 games did he throw for under 200 yds. This all did occur in his first season learning a new offense in which the reads and progessions that he had become so accustom to in Philly after 12 years in the same system were completely reversed. Sometimes we as Redskins fans can be a fickle bunch. Buying into the sensationalized bs that spans the radio, TV, and other online sports media outlets. It's about time we use a little citical thought to define our opinions about this team and what would be best for its prolonged success. There's no way you can convince me that Grossman is a better option then McNabb unless the competition happens to be, who would make the best human ball warmer.
First off, welcome to the board!!

Donovan did not play well last year. Nobody can say that he did. He played mediocre, and sometimes below average. Sadly, that is what we are accustomed to with redskins QB's here, a standard that Jason Campbell beautifully lived up to. Say what you want, but the whole team performed better when Rex was in there. They looked dangerous against the cowboys.
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Old 06-06-2011, 03:43 PM   #19
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

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Originally Posted by fanarchist View Post
We are talking about the same McNabb who had the most passes over 50 yds throughout the first half of the season in an offense that could barely find a spark in the ground game over the same duration. The same dude who threw for over 400 yds in a game against Houston in an offense that, according to the coaches, his grasp of was tenuous at best. 5 of his 14 games he threw for over, or on the cusp of 300 yds and only 2 of those 14 games did he throw for under 200 yds. This all did occur in his first season learning a new offense in which the reads and progessions that he had become so accustom to in Philly after 12 years in the same system were completely reversed. Sometimes we as Redskins fans can be a fickle bunch. Buying into the sensationalized bs that spans the radio, TV, and other online sports media outlets. It's about time we use a little citical thought to define our opinions about this team and what would be best for its prolonged success. There's no way you can convince me that Grossman is a better option then McNabb unless the competition happens to be, who would make the best human ball warmer.
The sensationalized BS has pretty much fallen squarely into the "McNabb was screwed, Mike Shanahan is a hack, Kyle Shanahan is a moron, everyone else on the team sucks" category. Pretty much no one is on the Shanahan's side in the media-at-large.

Yeah, he threw for a lot of yards. But...take the Texans game. He threw for over 400 yards against a pass defense that was the worse in the league. For comparison's sake, rookie quarterback Tim Tebow carved up the Texans secondary. That game was an abberation, and even then, he only threw for one touchdown, and couldn't close out the game with a score.

Most of the time he was throwing for that many yards because the team got down early and had to throw the football to get back in the game. That's why how many yards a quarterback throws for is a cruddy indicator of their overall in game performance. If you throw for 300 yards, but you only have one touchdown and one pick, then you're not really being effective.

He had a lot of passes over 50 yards, but even with that cannon of an arm of his, a lot of those throws were underthrown. How many times did we see Anthony Armstrong take the top off the defense and have no defenders around him, only for AA to have to come back to the ball or slide down to make the catch. Easy touchdowns if he makes the throw, but he doesn't.

And when the Redskins managed to go on length drives, he couldn't thrown touchdown scores. Everyone kept going on about needing taller receivers or running it or whatever...but pretty much every time Rex drove the Redskins into the red zone, the Redskins walked out of those situations with touchdowns.

Rex's four touchdown passes against Dallas were ALL in the red zone. Quarterbacks make their money on 1.) converting third downs and 2.) production in the red zone, meaning touchdowns. McNabb couldn't do either of those things. Some of it was what was around him, but a lot of it was him just not getting the ball out, or sometimes him only reading half the the field.

That pick he threw in the Tennessee game, where Joey Galloway actually managed to pop wide open? He's only reading half the field. He's reading right and doesn't even think to come back to the left until it's WAY too late.

It's the stuff like that that makes it clear that he was struggling, and it wasn't just a "he doesn't know the offense" thing. He had a whole training camp and thirteen games to get the offense down, and the only time he looked really comfortable with it was against Indianapolis.

It's not that Rex gives the team the best chance to win. It's that Donovan [i]doesn't[/i.]
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Old 06-06-2011, 03:45 PM   #20
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

Well said NLC
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Old 06-06-2011, 07:28 PM   #21
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

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Yeah, I can see that and combined with Cooley's comments last week on NFL Total Access that both parties were surprised at the learning curve of the offense I don't think McNabb was prepared to come in and be 'coached'. Reid did more coddling and yielding to what suited McNabb than Kyle did and I think that may have been a source of conflict as well. Mike and Kyle seem to be of the school of thought-'you are a pro, prepare and act like one' and McNabb may have been comfortable with getting by on talent and supporting cast. I won't be surprised to see him successful somewhere else in 2011 but he just wasn't a good fit with the Shanahans.
I like McNabb and I like Kyle.
I think Kyle could be an innovative mind in the passing game like McDaniels.
But, lets not forget they chose McNabb.
They traded for him.

If you traded for a pro-bowl talent then shouldn't at least some of the blame fall in their (Kyle's) lap for not suiting his strengths?
Afterall that's what coaches do, and in McNabb's case where there is a proven track of success and high level play shouldn't there be an even greater level adaption to suit him?


You have coaches that are getting production out of lesser talented QBs through coaching ala Gailey w/ Fitzpatrick or McDaniels (that prick) w/ Orton or even Zorn w/ Campbell. Yet Kyle has basically guided a pro-bowl QB to the worst season of their career; and most fans are ready to heap all the blame for McNabb's lack of success solely on McNabb.

Don't get me wrong McNabb didn't play well.
For whatever reason McNabb didn't play up to his own high standards, but the blame for his failing in Washington is a shared failing w/ Kyle.
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:38 PM   #22
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

If Mike and Kyle pride themselves on having the innate ability to recognize and systemically implement QB talent why were these widely preexisting deficiencies in McNabb's game not addressed during the inception of the brianstorming sessions that ultimately led to them trading for him?

If recollection serves, although time does tend to distort perception, at the end of the Texans game McNabb threw a perfectly timed ball, in stride, over his left shoulder to Joey Galloway for a TD and the early microcosm for the entire season crept in and was abruptly stamped. DROP! As far as I'm concerned McNabb threw a game winning pass. What happened on the opposite end of the wire can not be anchored to McNabb, but instead belongs in the unwelcoming, arthritic palms of Galloway and possibly the mastermind who decided Galloway still had a couple gallons left in the tank.

Drops from Cooley. Drops from Moss. I can't remember the opponent but I distinctly recall Fred Davis dropping a TD pass. Armstrong was, at best, 60/40 in catchable targets with McNabb at the helm. All of those drops have to manifest themselves in some way. For us it was 3rd down conversion percentage.

I'll chalk up the mistimed long balls to McNabb's lack of comfortability with the timing of a new offense. The dude ran the same scheme his entire career before coming to the Redskins. The least you could give the guy is a single season grace period to become more entrenched and acclimated to timing with new receivers, an overall understanding of the system and whats expected of him in terms of progression so he is playing without thinking. Reading deep to short as opposed to short to deep. Bad habits die hard and I believe that was a major contributor to McNabb's inconsitency.

I understand it's a "win now" league, but regardless of that nomenclature we haven't been able to manipulate, from the FO down, that famous football colloquialism. So I suggest patience as a possible solution and I get chastised because of a simple indepentant belief that McNabb dosen't give us the best chance to win. Grossman was somewhat effective in the limited action he accumulated. His completion percentage was average and he threw 4 ints in 3 games. He also lost 3 out of 4 games in which he could have been a determining factor in the outcome. And yes I'm including the benching and fumble return for a TD in Detroit. The single game that he won was decided in overtime. I agree that McNabb isn't the QB that gives us the best chance to win league wide, but on our roster to date, in my opinion, he is, unquestionably, the best QB currently employed by the Washington Redskins and between Beck, Grossman, and McNabb I believe McNabb does gives us the best chance to win.
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:42 PM   #23
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

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I like McNabb and I like Kyle.
I think Kyle could be an innovative mind in the passing game like McDaniels.
But, lets not forget they chose McNabb.
They traded for him.

If you traded for a pro-bowl talent then shouldn't at least some of the blame fall in their (Kyle's) lap for not suiting his strengths?
Afterall that's what coaches do, and in McNabb's case where there is a proven track of success and high level play shouldn't there be an even greater level adaption to suit him?


You have coaches that are getting production out of lesser talented QBs through coaching ala Gailey w/ Fitzpatrick or McDaniels (that prick) w/ Orton or even Zorn w/ Campbell. Yet Kyle has basically guided a pro-bowl QB to the worst season of their career; and most fans are ready to heap all the blame for McNabb's lack of success solely on McNabb.

Don't get me wrong McNabb didn't play well.
For whatever reason McNabb didn't play up to his own high standards, but the blame for his failing in Washington is a shared failing w/ Kyle.
Well, in fairness to Kyle all indications are that the move to get McNabb was against his wishes and something he had openly stated before they traded for him he didn't think would work
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:50 PM   #24
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

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Well, in fairness to Kyle all indications are that the move to get McNabb was against his wishes and something he had openly stated before they traded for him he didn't think would work
Which makes me wonder if Kyle was faster to throw up his hands with McNabb than he would have been with another guy. Not saying McNabb was the man for the job, just wondering if it was doomed to fail before it even began?
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:54 PM   #25
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

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Which makes me wonder if Kyle was faster to throw up his hands with McNabb than he would have been with another guy. Not saying McNabb was the man for the job, just wondering if it was doomed to fail before it even began?
Yeah, that's a good point. Could be
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Old 06-06-2011, 11:49 PM   #26
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

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McNabb's situation seems similiar to Haynesworth's. Guys say and do all the right things during the interviewing process and the first few weeks of being on board, then their hair is let down...
Yes but in both situations there were warning signs that should have alerted the front office about what they were about to get. Haynesworth, while a dominant DT, had a history of character issues and other problems that showed up later on as expected. With McNabb, the fact that the Eagles were willing to trade him to a division rival should have been a warning sign. Not to mention the fact that the McNabb trade was the same bad habit that the previous FO had (giving up picks on veterans). I hope the FO has learned its lesson...I hope.
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Old 06-06-2011, 11:59 PM   #27
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

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Originally Posted by fanarchist View Post
If Mike and Kyle pride themselves on having the innate ability to recognize and systemically implement QB talent why were these widely preexisting deficiencies in McNabb's game not addressed during the inception of the brianstorming sessions that ultimately led to them trading for him?

If recollection serves, although time does tend to distort perception, at the end of the Texans game McNabb threw a perfectly timed ball, in stride, over his left shoulder to Joey Galloway for a TD and the early microcosm for the entire season crept in and was abruptly stamped. DROP! As far as I'm concerned McNabb threw a game winning pass. What happened on the opposite end of the wire can not be anchored to McNabb, but instead belongs in the unwelcoming, arthritic palms of Galloway and possibly the mastermind who decided Galloway still had a couple gallons left in the tank.

Drops from Cooley. Drops from Moss. I can't remember the opponent but I distinctly recall Fred Davis dropping a TD pass. Armstrong was, at best, 60/40 in catchable targets with McNabb at the helm. All of those drops have to manifest themselves in some way. For us it was 3rd down conversion percentage.

I'll chalk up the mistimed long balls to McNabb's lack of comfortability with the timing of a new offense. The dude ran the same scheme his entire career before coming to the Redskins. The least you could give the guy is a single season grace period to become more entrenched and acclimated to timing with new receivers, an overall understanding of the system and whats expected of him in terms of progression so he is playing without thinking. Reading deep to short as opposed to short to deep. Bad habits die hard and I believe that was a major contributor to McNabb's inconsitency.

I understand it's a "win now" league, but regardless of that nomenclature we haven't been able to manipulate, from the FO down, that famous football colloquialism. So I suggest patience as a possible solution and I get chastised because of a simple indepentant belief that McNabb dosen't give us the best chance to win. Grossman was somewhat effective in the limited action he accumulated. His completion percentage was average and he threw 4 ints in 3 games. He also lost 3 out of 4 games in which he could have been a determining factor in the outcome. And yes I'm including the benching and fumble return for a TD in Detroit. The single game that he won was decided in overtime. I agree that McNabb isn't the QB that gives us the best chance to win league wide, but on our roster to date, in my opinion, he is, unquestionably, the best QB currently employed by the Washington Redskins and between Beck, Grossman, and McNabb I believe McNabb does gives us the best chance to win.
But all indications were that it wasn't just the on the field stuff. I'm not chastising you, I'm just saying, it's not just the team around him. It's not just the drops.

It was the way he played, but probably more so, it was the way he acted. If you know Mike Shanahan, you know how big a deal practice is to him, that he's a no hit guy who takes care of his players, but he wants the tempo of practice to be good as well.

He spoke of having those days in practice where the ball never hit the ground. All indications are that they never had that. Then there's issues with him coming out either last or late for practice. Than there's the wristband stuff that's pretty much been widely confirmed by anyone who has a source in the building.

So it seems to me that Mike Shanahan (and Mike alone; as someone pointed out, Kyle didn't think he'd be a good fit in the offense and was against the trade to begin with) thought he was getting one player, and ended up with another. He thought he was getting a consummate pro, the hardest worker on the team, and a playmaker that had all things he wanted.

What he seemed to get was a slightly image conscious, kinda lazy (or at least not up to Shanahan's standards) quarterback who benefited greatly from being in a system in which Andy Reid allowed him to improvise more than he was required to be precise, and despite having a lot of time to get better, he either couldn't process it or didn't put the work in to do it.

I also don't really buy that Kyle didn't do enough to try and maximize what Donovan was good at. All these screen passes and the checkdowns to the running backs seem like it was "give him a high read, a low read, and then a checkdown". That's pretty much what they ran with him in Philly.

It was a mutual thing, this whole nasty break up. But Donovan had his fair share of problems, and it wasn't all drops by wide receivers. I think anyone will tell you that it's hard to catch a football that's thrown at your knees.

If anything, keeping Donovan despite all the problems would be more of a "win now" move than seeing what they have in John Beck and Rex. Best case scenario, they have a quarterback that can right the ship while they replenish positions of need on the team. Worst case, they just draft a quarterback next year.
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Old 06-07-2011, 06:58 AM   #28
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

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We are talking about the same McNabb who had the most passes over 50 yds throughout the first half of the season in an offense that could barely find a spark in the ground game over the same duration. The same dude who threw for over 400 yds in a game against Houston in an offense that, according to the coaches, his grasp of was tenuous at best. 5 of his 14 games he threw for over, or on the cusp of 300 yds and only 2 of those 14 games did he throw for under 200 yds. This all did occur in his first season learning a new offense in which the reads and progessions that he had become so accustom to in Philly after 12 years in the same system were completely reversed. Sometimes we as Redskins fans can be a fickle bunch. Buying into the sensationalized bs that spans the radio, TV, and other online sports media outlets. It's about time we use a little citical thought to define our opinions about this team and what would be best for its prolonged success. There's no way you can convince me that Grossman is a better option then McNabb unless the competition happens to be, who would make the best human ball warmer.
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Old 06-07-2011, 11:18 AM   #29
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

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But all indications were that it wasn't just the on the field stuff. I'm not chastising you, I'm just saying, it's not just the team around him. It's not just the drops.

It was the way he played, but probably more so, it was the way he acted. If you know Mike Shanahan, you know how big a deal practice is to him, that he's a no hit guy who takes care of his players, but he wants the tempo of practice to be good as well.

He spoke of having those days in practice where the ball never hit the ground. All indications are that they never had that. Then there's issues with him coming out either last or late for practice. Than there's the wristband stuff that's pretty much been widely confirmed by anyone who has a source in the building.

So it seems to me that Mike Shanahan (and Mike alone; as someone pointed out, Kyle didn't think he'd be a good fit in the offense and was against the trade to begin with) thought he was getting one player, and ended up with another. He thought he was getting a consummate pro, the hardest worker on the team, and a playmaker that had all things he wanted.

What he seemed to get was a slightly image conscious, kinda lazy (or at least not up to Shanahan's standards) quarterback who benefited greatly from being in a system in which Andy Reid allowed him to improvise more than he was required to be precise, and despite having a lot of time to get better, he either couldn't process it or didn't put the work in to do it.

I also don't really buy that Kyle didn't do enough to try and maximize what Donovan was good at. All these screen passes and the checkdowns to the running backs seem like it was "give him a high read, a low read, and then a checkdown". That's pretty much what they ran with him in Philly.

It was a mutual thing, this whole nasty break up. But Donovan had his fair share of problems, and it wasn't all drops by wide receivers. I think anyone will tell you that it's hard to catch a football that's thrown at your knees.

If anything, keeping Donovan despite all the problems would be more of a "win now" move than seeing what they have in John Beck and Rex. Best case scenario, they have a quarterback that can right the ship while they replenish positions of need on the team. Worst case, they just draft a quarterback next year.

Some players are gamers, others are diligent workers that have to supplement their lack of natural talent with a solid practice regiment and endless hours of film study in order to assert a mental edge over their opponent. Occationally you find that perfect symbiosis of guys who have both, but it is a rarity. Granted McNabb did not meet Fam Shanahan's expectation as a hard worker on the practice field and in the film room. Perhaps his lack of commitment in those areas, when the lights are off, is the reason why he's not the proud owner of a superbowl ring, but it's undeniable that he has created a lasting legacy in this league playing his way.

I think that there is a vast difference between designed screens, which is what Philly did with McNabb under center and reading high to low and making a checkdown. The designed screen really didn't emerge as a staple in Kyle's play calling until well into the season. Which would suggest that he wasn't doing everything in his power to allow McNabb and the entire offense for that matter to succeed with the weapons they had a their disposal. You would hope as a fan that the adaptation to a screen game to supplement the lack of rushing attack would have occured much earlier in the season. It was always my understanding that the progession for McNabb in Philly was low-intermediate-high and not the other way around.

The point I was attempting to make with the "win now" statement is that after a decade of poor football from this Redskins organization you would think that they would be a slightly more patient than 13 games with their big name acquisitions. I was not suggesting that we give less athletically gifted players the opportunity to start as opposed to trying to win football games with the best players on our roster. That would be absurd. It was more of a "allow your newest acquistions to florish in a new system without prematurely pulling the plug" philosophy.

If Mike's initial intension was to trade for McNabb, play him a single season, then use him as trade bait for a future draft pick, I would have said it's not the greatest way to accumulate draft picks, but atleast it's forward thinking. Instead what they've done is defame the character and devalue the trade potential of a player who, had you allowed him to play the entire season, might have yeilded a future 3rd round pick. This whole approah is fundamentally flawed.
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Old 06-07-2011, 12:08 PM   #30
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

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The point I was attempting to make with the "win now" statement is that after a decade of poor football from this Redskins organization you would think that they would be a slightly more patient than 13 games with their big name acquisitions. I was not suggesting that we give less athletically gifted players the opportunity to start as opposed to trying to win football games with the best players on our roster. That would be absurd. It was more of a "allow your newest acquistions to florish in a new system without prematurely pulling the plug" philosophy.

If Mike's initial intension was to trade for McNabb, play him a single season, then use him as trade bait for a future draft pick, I would have said it's not the greatest way to accumulate draft picks, but atleast it's forward thinking. Instead what they've done is defame the character and devalue the trade potential of a player who, had you allowed him to play the entire season, might have yeilded a future 3rd round pick. This whole approah is fundamentally flawed.
MS should have never traded for McNabb period. I know that it probably seemed like a good idea at the time, but he should've stuck to rebuilding (as they seem to be doing now). I still don't understand why MS would do something (trading picks away for a veteran past his prime), that symbolized the dysfunctional front office that this team had for the past decade, in his first year. I think that the team would be in better rebuilding phase right now if they had kept those draft picks given up for McNabb.
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