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Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

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Old 06-08-2011, 09:35 AM   #61
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

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They are publicly blame shifting. Turning the focus from a poor system/player/personality evaluation to McNabb not wanting to wear a wristband, or McNabb not practicing with great urgency. If Shany would accept his portion of the blame I would consider it reciprocal fault, but he hasn't for the sake of maintaining appearences. Sounds like scapegoating to me.

Either that or Shanahan simply can't admit to himself, because of his own egocetricities, that he made a mistake.

If they wouldn't have publicly leaked this information his image would have remainded relatively untarnished and so would McNabb's. I think the fact that it came to light actually does more harm them good to Mike's image and to DMs stock. The fact that he couldn't motivate a guy that is obviously respected league wide indicates that he isn't as great of a leader of men as we initially thought.
Sorry for being late to the party but .... I don't see it as shifting blame, it's simply more information coming out. They came out and said this is why we benched him, then some how the wrist band incident came out, I'd guess there might have been maybe a couple of other issue's that we fans just don't know about. We fans need to stop making excuses for McNabb and look at the whole picture. McNabb did have all these issue's. Heck, some of us here were against the team picking up McNabb and some of us pointed out flaws we were concerned with him and they showed up on the field, ie; he's no longer the elusive QB he used to be due to his knees, he has no sense of urgency, he has no clock management for the 2 min. drill, etc. etc. These qualities are not the type MS or KS needed to run their scheme.

I won't put all the blame on McNabb though our OL sucked, only 1 WR, terrible run blocking.....
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Old 06-08-2011, 11:18 AM   #62
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

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Sorry for being late to the party but .... I don't see it as shifting blame, it's simply more information coming out. They came out and said this is why we benched him, then some how the wrist band incident came out, I'd guess there might have been maybe a couple of other issue's that we fans just don't know about. We fans need to stop making excuses for McNabb and look at the whole picture. McNabb did have all these issue's. Heck, some of us here were against the team picking up McNabb and some of us pointed out flaws we were concerned with him and they showed up on the field, ie; he's no longer the elusive QB he used to be due to his knees, he has no sense of urgency, he has no clock management for the 2 min. drill, etc. etc. These qualities are not the type MS or KS needed to run their scheme.

I won't put all the blame on McNabb though our OL sucked, only 1 WR, terrible run blocking.....

I don't feel like I'm making excuses for McNabb. I've addressed the topic in previous posts. Saying I don't think McNabb is blameless in this senario. Even in my post that you quoted I go on to use the phrase "reciprocal fault", meaning that I feel both parties shoulder a portion of the responsibility for the maladriot fashion in which our offense functioned. However, I don't consider it an honorable move to deride and defame McNabb in the mainstream media, regardless of who it was who actually leaked the information. The way I percieve it, it's an underhanded tactic used to distort a well rounded focus on all the contributing factors in our poor offensive production, to shifting the blame to a single man. It's fine if you don't see it that way. You're entitled to your perspective.

I still contend that McNabb is the best QB on our roster. Just like I believed Campbell was the best QB on our roster before we traded for McNabb. Where's JC now, sweeping divisions on the west coast in his first season. Granted it's not as dominant of a division, but they still face the Chargers twice a season. A team that last year was top 10 in both passing offense and defense. No small feat. Do I know what the future holds for Beck or Grossman in this offense, no. But if it comes down to either of them playing starting QB for the Redskins, I'll be right there hoping for both prosperity and success. All I'm doing is stating what is currently an irrefutable fact. McNabb is the best QB on our roster.
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Old 06-08-2011, 11:23 AM   #63
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

He may be the best QB on the roster but more importantly he's shown he's not the best fit for this offense.
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Old 06-08-2011, 11:51 AM   #64
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

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He may be the best QB on the roster but more importantly he's shown he's not the best fit for this offense.
With the * that Kyle wasn't keen on having him run the offense from the beginning. I don't feel like your statement is an irrevocable truth when you consider the possibility that he wasn't given all the tools he needed to succeed. I think great coaches have to adapt to the personel that they are given, or that they inherit. I think that instead of working in concert for the betterment of the collective whole, there was an underlying power struggle between McNabb and Kyle. Both parties effected the outcome, but it's a coaches job to make his players feel comfortable, welcome and like there is an open line of communication, not simply to impose their will without any outside input.
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Old 06-08-2011, 12:10 PM   #65
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

Kyle added stuff to the offense that clearly was more like stuff they run in Philly than it was stuff that he ran in Houston. In the second half of the season (after the benching), there were a lot more plays that "McNabb would be comfortable with" called.

It might be a coaches' job to make his players feel comfortable, but it's a player's job to go out and execute the plays as called. Donovan just didn't execute the way he was supposed to.

And there probably was a power struggle, but I think it had as much to do with veteran hard-headedness as it did with Kyle being slow to change his offense.

It's give and take. Even not wanting McNabb, I very much believe Kyle wanted to make it work. It didn't.
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Old 06-08-2011, 12:35 PM   #66
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

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With the * that Kyle wasn't keen on having him run the offense from the beginning. I don't feel like your statement is an irrevocable truth when you consider the possibility that he wasn't given all the tools he needed to succeed. I think great coaches have to adapt to the personel that they are given, or that they inherit. I think that instead of working in concert for the betterment of the collective whole, there was an underlying power struggle between McNabb and Kyle. Both parties effected the outcome, but it's a coaches job to make his players feel comfortable, welcome and like there is an open line of communication, not simply to impose their will without any outside input.
Obviously for whatever reasons Kyle S. and McNabb just didn't mesh. I'm not going to pretend to know who's more at fault or more to blame, at this point it's just best for both parties to chalk it up as a mistake and move on.
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Old 06-08-2011, 12:47 PM   #67
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

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Obviously for whatever reasons Kyle S. and McNabb just didn't mesh. I'm not going to pretend to know who's more at fault or more to blame, at this point it's just best for both parties to chalk it up as a mistake and move on.
Agreed.
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Old 06-08-2011, 01:13 PM   #68
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

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Kyle added stuff to the offense that clearly was more like stuff they run in Philly than it was stuff that he ran in Houston. In the second half of the season (after the benching), there were a lot more plays that "McNabb would be comfortable with" called.

It might be a coaches' job to make his players feel comfortable, but it's a player's job to go out and execute the plays as called. Donovan just didn't execute the way he was supposed to.

And there probably was a power struggle, but I think it had as much to do with veteran hard-headedness as it did with Kyle being slow to change his offense.

It's give and take. Even not wanting McNabb, I very much believe Kyle wanted to make it work. It didn't.

You're right. Eventually Kyle implemented a screen game. My question is why didn't he concede to doing it earlier in the season when we were having some fundamental problems in the run game? Not to say that screens cure all that ails, but it's definitely a proven and effective method to manifest some of the yards lost from forcing the run. They also help to expand a condensed and over persuing defense opening the middle of the field for quick slants and drag routes across the middle. The Saints use them. So do the Patriots and Indy runs designed wheel routes out of the backfield which essentially serves the same purpose. The Chargers, the Jags, Dallas. Obviously Philly uses the screen with great frequency and success.

I believe this is the forth time now that I'm saying that McNabb played his part in the downward spiraling.

If Kyle truly wanted to make it work he would have recognized DMs skill set and adapted his offense earlier.
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Old 06-08-2011, 01:51 PM   #69
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

Well I don't think it's like we didn't run screens at all before then. We just didn't run them with the frequency that we did later in the season.

You have to look at the circumstances of the game. The first Dallas game was just a struggle no matter what was the case. Versus the Texans, we were ripping their secondary to shreds, so the screen game becomes less neccessary.

Versus the Rams, the run game was functional enough that they did need to use the screen game. Torain exploded versus the Eagles the next week.

The Packers killed us defensively, and maybe using more screens would've been key there. But then you have Torain running for over 100 yards for Indy the next week (where they still ran some screen plays), and then he rushed for 100 versus the Bears in a team that's not suspetible to getting fooled by screens.

I think the Lions game is where we start to see them used more frequently, which is apparently where all the trouble really started to take place.

The screens worked to great effectiveness versus the Titans the following week, but the Giants were ready for it the next week and completely killed the screen game, which seemed like it was our whole gameplan. The same thing goes for the Vikings game the week after that. And then the next week you have Torain bulldozing every one in Tampa.

So when you go back and look at the game situations and how the team did and looked offensively, McNabb had trouble running the offense that Kyle wanted. And then when Kyle implemented more things McNabb was more comfortable with, McNabb still had more trouble with it.

Once teams figured out we were going to be running more screen passes, they did a better job of stopping us from using them. And that forced McNabb to play more within the regular offense, which he couldn't execute.
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Old 06-08-2011, 02:06 PM   #70
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

fanarchist,
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However, I don't consider it an honorable move to deride and defame McNabb in the mainstream media, regardless of who it was who actually leaked the information. The way I percieve it, it's an underhanded tactic used to distort a well rounded focus on all the contributing factors in our poor offensive production, to shifting the blame to a single man.
Honestly, I don't think any of us really have any idea what actually went on. Unless you work for the team and stood there and observed everything you really don't know. What were the play calls? what was McNabb supposed to do? where was the ball supposed to go? did the OL break down? did the WR run the right route? etc. etc. etc. The only people who know what was right and wrong with each play is the coaching staff and the players. Maybe it is all one sided.... maybe it is all McNabb? We don't know.

In regards to the public issue's, people can't have it two ways. I loved Gibbs and how he coached. I grew up with that. Anything went wrong it was on him. Even when we fans knew that it might have been specific players on different plays Gibbs told the media it was he who screwed up. I'm totally with you on the not putting the dirty laundry through the media. However Shanahan is not that type of coach. No one cares that Haynesworth's crap is happening through the media because he's a douche. The only reason people are upset about McNabb's dirty laundry being aired through the media is because he's a nice guy. Doesn't mean the info is not true it just means his talent level is diminishing due to age and because he's a nice guy people are upset about it being made public.

Matty,
Quote:
He may be the best QB on the roster but more importantly he's shown he's not the best fit for this offense.
Totally agree with you. Except the best QB is on the downward slide and if Grossman is picked back up then we have a QB who is stagnant. Then you have Beck.... who now is supposed to be "the man."

fanarchist,
Quote:
I think great coaches have to adapt to the personel that they are given, or that they inherit.
Totally with you. What sets coach's apart is how well they use their players talents. Except I would still argue that although our coaching staff said the Skins were not "rebuilding" and did not dump everyone and start anew by "rebuilding" I still feel they are "rebuilding." Had it not been then the offense might have been the same somewhat because Zorn already implimented the WCO but the defense was a 4-3 and the team would have continued to use that and only dabbled with the 3-4 until they got the right personell. Instead they went all in as in "rebuilding" and implimented the 3-4 in hopes that most of the players will understand it better and that they would only have to change a few pieces.

NLC,
Quote:
It might be a coaches' job to make his players feel comfortable, but it's a player's job to go out and execute the plays as called. Donovan just didn't execute the way he was supposed to.
and there in lies the problem. Although coach's should use the talent they have, players must be adaptable also. I'm sure the player adapted from little league to high school. They adapted from high school to college. and they adapted from college to the pro's. They should be able to adapt from one scheme to the next but we all need to remember McNabb was under one system for how long? He's getting old and starting to wear down. Right now McNabb's perfect situation would be to be on a team with an excellent OL to block for him and give him all day in the pocket to throw. Unfortunatly Shanahan's system is not that, it's got more roll outs and the second issue is our OL sucked, why? new scheme and new blocking style.
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Old 06-08-2011, 02:13 PM   #71
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

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Well I don't think it's like we didn't run screens at all before then. We just didn't run them with the frequency that we did later in the season.

You have to look at the circumstances of the game. The first Dallas game was just a struggle no matter what was the case. Versus the Texans, we were ripping their secondary to shreds, so the screen game becomes less neccessary.

Versus the Rams, the run game was functional enough that they did need to use the screen game. Torain exploded versus the Eagles the next week.

The Packers killed us defensively, and maybe using more screens would've been key there. But then you have Torain running for over 100 yards for Indy the next week (where they still ran some screen plays), and then he rushed for 100 versus the Bears in a team that's not suspetible to getting fooled by screens.

I think the Lions game is where we start to see them used more frequently, which is apparently where all the trouble really started to take place.

The screens worked to great effectiveness versus the Titans the following week, but the Giants were ready for it the next week and completely killed the screen game, which seemed like it was our whole gameplan. The same thing goes for the Vikings game the week after that. And then the next week you have Torain bulldozing every one in Tampa.

So when you go back and look at the game situations and how the team did and looked offensively, McNabb had trouble running the offense that Kyle wanted. And then when Kyle implemented more things McNabb was more comfortable with, McNabb still had more trouble with it.

Once teams figured out we were going to be running more screen passes, they did a better job of stopping us from using them. And that forced McNabb to play more within the regular offense, which he couldn't execute.
Also the screen is usually used against teams with aggressive defenses. The reason it was used more frequently might have been that other teams realized our OL sucked and they had pretty good chances at getting to the QB so the QB might have changed what ever play was called to a screen if he saw the rush was coming.

Might also be why KS favored Grossman over McNabb.
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Old 06-08-2011, 03:19 PM   #72
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

There are very few Qb's that can come into a new system, new team, with new teammates that are frankly substandard and expect do well. Not only did our offensive line, Rb's and Wr's suck last year and the year before, but our defense was awful. I think the expectation level placed on McNabb on the part of the Shanahan's, the press and the fans was unrealistic. There was this unspoken and unrealistic expectation that McNabb was going to make us a playoff team. I think the people that are still bashing Mcnabb still believe we are a Qb away from being a playoff team. We are not.
But then again when are the expectation levels of the Redskins fans realistic? The part that gets to me about this whole situation is in less than one season the Shanahan's made up their mind about Donovan and they did not allow for the normal learning curve process to take place. Then add to that the mysterious leaks that nobody has MAN-ed up to. The guy that made the leaks is still hiding like a big pussy.
At least Haslett has the balls to man up about his recent comments on AH.
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Old 06-08-2011, 03:47 PM   #73
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

Wasn't one of the things McNabb used to be renowned for is making a bunch of unknown and less than talented receivers look like star talent?

And that doesn't explain how Rex friggin' Grossman, with the same weapons, with the same bad o-line, with the same playcaller, was able to come in, after not playing for a year (whether he knew the offense or didn't) and was able to at least appear to play well and milk more production out of those weapons.

Jay Cutler had to learn a completely different offense, coming off a bad year, with a bad offensive line, and only one Pro Bowl receiver, and the other favorite target he had was benched by the offensive coordinator. He struggled at first, but over the course of the year, you saw that he was getting more and more comfortable with the offense.

Mike Martz molded his offense to things Jay was more comfortable doing, and Jay became more comfortable running Martz offense.

This notion that Donovan didn't have enough time in the offense is silly. We traded for him in April. He was at every OTA, every minicamp, had a whole training camp, two preseason games and thirteen regular season games to get a handle of the offense. Kyle added things he was more comfortable with and he still couldn't run it. He just wasn't a fit here, and was apparently a little hard-headed and wanted to do things his way.

The best offensive coordinator/quarterback relationships come from a willingness to work together. At some point, it became clear that there wasn't going to be a middle ground found between the two.

I am under no delusions that we are anywhere close to being a playoff team. Far friggin' from it. I think we're closer to being decent than we are from being cellar dwellers, but playoff teams are built, and we still have a lot of building to do.

And rather than getting upset about who leaked what, why not get upset by the fact that, instead of being interested in winning football games and being better, McNabb was more concerned with the fact that wearing an wristband would make him "look bad".

Why not get upset that he didn't practice hard? That he's the last guy on the practice field instead of the first? That he wasn't in the best condition?

I respect what McNabb has done in the past, and I think the organization had a hand in some of the shennigans that happened, but McNabb had more than his fair share to do with it. That's all anyone is saying.

The blame is shared.
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Old 06-08-2011, 04:51 PM   #74
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

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Wasn't one of the things McNabb used to be renowned for is making a bunch of unknown and less than talented receivers look like star talent?

And that doesn't explain how Rex friggin' Grossman, with the same weapons, with the same bad o-line, with the same playcaller, was able to come in, after not playing for a year (whether he knew the offense or didn't) and was able to at least appear to play well and milk more production out of those weapons.

Jay Cutler had to learn a completely different offense, coming off a bad year, with a bad offensive line, and only one Pro Bowl receiver, and the other favorite target he had was benched by the offensive coordinator. He struggled at first, but over the course of the year, you saw that he was getting more and more comfortable with the offense.

Mike Martz molded his offense to things Jay was more comfortable doing, and Jay became more comfortable running Martz offense.

This notion that Donovan didn't have enough time in the offense is silly. We traded for him in April. He was at every OTA, every minicamp, had a whole training camp, two preseason games and thirteen regular season games to get a handle of the offense. Kyle added things he was more comfortable with and he still couldn't run it. He just wasn't a fit here, and was apparently a little hard-headed and wanted to do things his way.

The best offensive coordinator/quarterback relationships come from a willingness to work together. At some point, it became clear that there wasn't going to be a middle ground found between the two.

I am under no delusions that we are anywhere close to being a playoff team. Far friggin' from it. I think we're closer to being decent than we are from being cellar dwellers, but playoff teams are built, and we still have a lot of building to do.

And rather than getting upset about who leaked what, why not get upset by the fact that, instead of being interested in winning football games and being better, McNabb was more concerned with the fact that wearing an wristband would make him "look bad".

Why not get upset that he didn't practice hard? That he's the last guy on the practice field instead of the first? That he wasn't in the best condition?

I respect what McNabb has done in the past, and I think the organization had a hand in some of the shennigans that happened, but McNabb had more than his fair share to do with it. That's all anyone is saying.

The blame is shared.
This.

I hate that this devolved into a blame game between Kyle and Donovan because at the end of the day it's meaningless.

Here's the forward spin, Kyle will be here in 2011 (and beyond) and Donovan won't. With what Grossman said, are we in good hands with a QB who is totally bought in and experienced in the system-as flawed as he is?
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Old 06-08-2011, 04:59 PM   #75
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Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday

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Wasn't one of the things McNabb used to be renowned for is making a bunch of unknown and less than talented receivers look like star talent?

And that doesn't explain how Rex friggin' Grossman, with the same weapons, with the same bad o-line, with the same playcaller, was able to come in, after not playing for a year (whether he knew the offense or didn't) and was able to at least appear to play well and milk more production out of those weapons.

Jay Cutler had to learn a completely different offense, coming off a bad year, with a bad offensive line, and only one Pro Bowl receiver, and the other favorite target he had was benched by the offensive coordinator. He struggled at first, but over the course of the year, you saw that he was getting more and more comfortable with the offense.

Mike Martz molded his offense to things Jay was more comfortable doing, and Jay became more comfortable running Martz offense.

This notion that Donovan didn't have enough time in the offense is silly. We traded for him in April. He was at every OTA, every minicamp, had a whole training camp, two preseason games and thirteen regular season games to get a handle of the offense. Kyle added things he was more comfortable with and he still couldn't run it. He just wasn't a fit here, and was apparently a little hard-headed and wanted to do things his way.

The best offensive coordinator/quarterback relationships come from a willingness to work together. At some point, it became clear that there wasn't going to be a middle ground found between the two.

I am under no delusions that we are anywhere close to being a playoff team. Far friggin' from it. I think we're closer to being decent than we are from being cellar dwellers, but playoff teams are built, and we still have a lot of building to do.

And rather than getting upset about who leaked what, why not get upset by the fact that, instead of being interested in winning football games and being better, McNabb was more concerned with the fact that wearing an wristband would make him "look bad".

Why not get upset that he didn't practice hard? That he's the last guy on the practice field instead of the first? That he wasn't in the best condition?

I respect what McNabb has done in the past, and I think the organization had a hand in some of the shennigans that happened, but McNabb had more than his fair share to do with it. That's all anyone is saying.

The blame is shared.
Yes, when he has a good offensive line in front of him that can pass protect, something he did not have last year.
How long has Rex Grossman been in Kyle Shanhan's system? Grossman, who was with the Houston Texans with Kyle Shanahan in 2009 and came to Washington with him last year, is much more familiar with the system and the way the coordinator wants it executed.

How funny that you mention Cutler. He is exactly what I am talking about being given a second year to get used his new offense system. McNabb and Cutlers numbers are near identical their first year with the new team.

Culter in 2009 (first year with Chicago):
QB rating of 76.8, threw 26 interceptions and was sacked 35 times

Donovan in 2010:
QB rating 77.1, threw 15 interceptions and was sacked 37 times.

Kyle Shanahan emerges as a full-blown control freak | ProFootballTalk
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