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Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

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Old 06-30-2011, 06:48 PM   #106
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

I think there are four hall of fame receivers from the current era: Terrell Owens, Marvin Harrison, Randy Moss, and Derrick Mason.

Carter, and hopefully Tim Brown, need to go into Canton in the next two years before Harrison is eligible and then Owens and Moss shortly thereafter.
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Old 06-30-2011, 06:49 PM   #107
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

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Dude, McNabb had his best season EVER with T.O. It's not even close.

3,875 yards is the second most for McNabb. 64% completion percentage is a career high. 31 touchdowns, eight interceptions and his highest ever quarterback rating period. Yeah, they went to a bunch of NFC Championship games without T.O, but T.O helped them get over the hump without a doubt.
Numbers may be overrated by McNabb was accurate with T.O. That should say something
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Old 06-30-2011, 06:56 PM   #108
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

All that matters in the Hall of Fame is numbers. How many winning season did O.J Simpson have with Buffalo while he was there? Not a whole lot. There's a lot of guys who never made it to a Super Bowl, hell, guys who never made it to a NFL/AFL/NFC/AFC Championship game.

The numbers come first, always. You get into the HOF based off numbers first and foremost.
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Old 06-30-2011, 07:26 PM   #109
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

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Can be easily argued TO is the 2nd greatest WR after Rice ever. Me, I prefer to give that title to Randy Moss, NO ONE was as dominating at WR in their prime IMO. Moss is the greatest deep ball reciever ever by an enormous margin.
So you would say the NFL's 2nd greatest WR is a one trick pony that gave up on plays and had a horrible attitude.

Without a doubt, Moss could have been the NFL's best ever to play the WR position based on talent alone. The problem is, Moss has never (or ever will be) a complete WR. He was a one trick pony. If it wasn't the deep ball, then chances are Randy isn't trying to catch it. I've seen Jerry Rice take 5 yard slants to the house on numerous occasions. Catch balls over the middle, one handed catches on the sideline. There wasn't a route he couldn't run with perfection. I look for a WR to be complete in all aspects and Moss isn't even remotely in that category.

In fact, he's not even on Steve Largent's class in terms of what a WR should be. You shouldn't get into the Hall of Fame merely because you were more athletic and could jump over people to obtain a bunch of numbers. It should be based on how hard you worked and the effort you put for to get there and the dedication to your position you exhibited. Many guys in there didn't have 1/3 the athletic talent that Randy has and still got the job done through practice, hard work, and respect for the game. He has none of that. One thing you could never fault Owens for was his dedication to his craft. He worked hard, he ran his routes precisely, and he executed more times than not. It's just unfortunate that he chose to open his mouth one too many times.
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Old 06-30-2011, 07:42 PM   #110
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

As bad as T.O is...I love the guy. I know the character stuff, I know he's locker room poison...but I can't hate the guy. Him and Ochocinco.

They make the game fun to watch, if they don't always make it fun to play for the guys on the field. And as NC said, T.O is dedicated to his craft. He's always in shape, he runs the entire route tree (or most of it), he makes the quarterback he's playing with better, usually.

Should T.O get in on the first ballot? In terms of numbers, work ethic and overall impact on the game, yeah. If you want to dock him on character, there's a lot of prick's in the Hall of Fame. A ton of them. And there's plenty of guys with excellent character out of it. But I don't think he'll get in as a first ballot Hall of Famer anyway, because the press will try to humble him, or some bullshit.
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Old 06-30-2011, 08:18 PM   #111
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

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So you would say the NFL's 2nd greatest WR is a one trick pony that gave up on plays and had a horrible attitude.

Without a doubt, Moss could have been the NFL's best ever to play the WR position based on talent alone. The problem is, Moss has never (or ever will be) a complete WR. He was a one trick pony. If it wasn't the deep ball, then chances are Randy isn't trying to catch it. I've seen Jerry Rice take 5 yard slants to the house on numerous occasions. Catch balls over the middle, one handed catches on the sideline. There wasn't a route he couldn't run with perfection. I look for a WR to be complete in all aspects and Moss isn't even remotely in that category.

In fact, he's not even on Steve Largent's class in terms of what a WR should be. You shouldn't get into the Hall of Fame merely because you were more athletic and could jump over people to obtain a bunch of numbers. It should be based on how hard you worked and the effort you put for to get there and the dedication to your position you exhibited. Many guys in there didn't have 1/3 the athletic talent that Randy has and still got the job done through practice, hard work, and respect for the game. He has none of that. One thing you could never fault Owens for was his dedication to his craft. He worked hard, he ran his routes precisely, and he executed more times than not. It's just unfortunate that he chose to open his mouth one too many times.
To be fair to Moss, he didn't have a whole lot to prove re: the hall of fame after his seven years with the Vikings, when he was the most dominant receiver of the pre-shogun spread era.

Any questions on Moss as a hall of fame player after that point were answered when he was put in one of the great passing offenses of all time and was its centerpiece for three seasons.

Randy Moss has had a couple of really waste-of-a-year dreadful seasons (2006 and 2010), but this is a guy who is just a half year older than Plaxico Burress is, and I guess what I'm saying is that if there's anyone out there who would take Burress over Moss in free agency, let the record show that they're passing on a hall of famer for a guy who hasn't played football in two seasons.

The eyeball test says Moss is done as an elite receiver, but the guy is so undeniably talented that who knows. He could be the best free agent signing of the year. Or, I suppose, that he could really be done.
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Old 06-30-2011, 10:07 PM   #112
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

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All that matters in the Hall of Fame is numbers. How many winning season did O.J Simpson have with Buffalo while he was there? Not a whole lot. There's a lot of guys who never made it to a Super Bowl, hell, guys who never made it to a NFL/AFL/NFC/AFC Championship game.

The numbers come first, always. You get into the HOF based off numbers first and foremost.
True on OJ, but OJ also changed his team. They were a much better team when he was there and you can talk to some of the guys who played with him - they just love(d) the guy. Again, none of T.O.s teams actually got better by him being on them.
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Old 06-30-2011, 10:30 PM   #113
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

Should he go in at some point, yes. However, not first ballot.
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Old 07-01-2011, 08:10 AM   #114
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

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As bad as T.O is...I love the guy. I know the character stuff, I know he's locker room poison...but I can't hate the guy. Him and Ochocinco.

They make the game fun to watch, if they don't always make it fun to play for the guys on the field. And as NC said, T.O is dedicated to his craft. He's always in shape, he runs the entire route tree (or most of it), he makes the quarterback he's playing with better, usually.

Should T.O get in on the first ballot? In terms of numbers, work ethic and overall impact on the game, yeah. If you want to dock him on character, there's a lot of prick's in the Hall of Fame. A ton of them. And there's plenty of guys with excellent character out of it. But I don't think he'll get in as a first ballot Hall of Famer anyway, because the press will try to humble him, or some bullshit.
That's certainly not my point, or at least I would state it differently. Not saying don't let him in the hall cause he's a prick. I would "dock him" on job performance. His job performance, which for ally players includes interviews, teammate relationships & sideline conduct, was harmful to his teams.

Rather than debate "character" just look at what the guy did for his teams. He made plays but he also tore a couple teams apart.
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Old 07-01-2011, 09:06 AM   #115
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

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Numbers may be overrated by McNabb was accurate with T.O. That should say something
Considering Owens routinely led the league in DROPS, this does speak well of McNabb and is famous "inaccuracy".
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Old 07-01-2011, 09:32 AM   #116
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

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So you would say the NFL's 2nd greatest WR is a one trick pony that gave up on plays and had a horrible attitude.

Without a doubt, Moss could have been the NFL's best ever to play the WR position based on talent alone. The problem is, Moss has never (or ever will be) a complete WR. He was a one trick pony. If it wasn't the deep ball, then chances are Randy isn't trying to catch it. I've seen Jerry Rice take 5 yard slants to the house on numerous occasions. Catch balls over the middle, one handed catches on the sideline. There wasn't a route he couldn't run with perfection. I look for a WR to be complete in all aspects and Moss isn't even remotely in that category.

In fact, he's not even on Steve Largent's class in terms of what a WR should be. You shouldn't get into the Hall of Fame merely because you were more athletic and could jump over people to obtain a bunch of numbers. It should be based on how hard you worked and the effort you put for to get there and the dedication to your position you exhibited. Many guys in there didn't have 1/3 the athletic talent that Randy has and still got the job done through practice, hard work, and respect for the game. He has none of that. One thing you could never fault Owens for was his dedication to his craft. He worked hard, he ran his routes precisely, and he executed more times than not. It's just unfortunate that he chose to open his mouth one too many times.
I think the year Moss set the record for 23 TD catches in a season, the same year TO lead the league in drops. Maybe im a year off. Dominance does not equal one trick pony. Moss is a huge prick, but imo TO was/is a locker room cancer which is way worse. Like I said, you can easily argue TO 2nd greatest all time, Id prefer Moss all day long. And yeah, Id probably take Moss over Steve Largent.
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Old 07-01-2011, 09:57 AM   #117
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

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I think the year Moss set the record for 23 TD catches in a season, the same year TO lead the league in drops. Maybe im a year off. Dominance does not equal one trick pony. Moss is a huge prick, but imo TO was/is a locker room cancer which is way worse. Like I said, you can easily argue TO 2nd greatest all time, Id prefer Moss all day long. And yeah, Id probably take Moss over Steve Largent.
You mean the same Moss that gave up on the Vikings (the infamous time he walked out of the field before the game was over during a Redskins/Vikes game) and didn't even try with the Raiders? I'm not going to deny Moss' abilities, but come on he was no saint. I think Moss got really lucky to land with a team like the Pats. But he was a bit of a one-trick pony, of course I would take that trick any time (you could just fling a bomb downfield to Moss and he would beat any receiver to catch it). But TO could do more, as it is seen by his YAC stats.

In the end, both TO and Moss are very good receivers. If you take out their attitudes...I would lean slightly towards TO. But, their numbers are pretty similar, and it seems silly to make one out much better than the other:


----Gm--|--Rec--|--Yds----|-Y/G-|-Avg--|-Lg-|-YAC-|-1Dw-|-TD
TO: 219-|-1078--|-15934---|-72.8-|-14.8-|-98-|-5.3-|-742-|-153
RM: 202-|-954---|-14858---|-73.6-|-15.6-|-82-|-3.9-|-682-|-153
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Old 07-01-2011, 10:16 AM   #118
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

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You mean the same Moss that gave up on the Vikings (the infamous time he walked out of the field before the game was over during a Redskins/Vikes game) and didn't even try with the Raiders? I'm not going to deny Moss' abilities, but come on he was no saint. I think Moss got really lucky to land with a team like the Pats. But he was a bit of a one-trick pony, of course I would take that trick any time (you could just fling a bomb downfield to Moss and he would beat any receiver to catch it). But TO could do more, as it is seen by his YAC stats.

In the end, both TO and Moss are very good receivers. If you take out their attitudes...I would lean slightly towards TO. But, their numbers are pretty similar, and it seems silly to make one out much better than the other:


----Gm--|--Rec--|--Yds----|-Y/G-|-Avg--|-Lg-|-YAC-|-1Dw-|-TD
TO: 219-|-1078--|-15934---|-72.8-|-14.8-|-98-|-5.3-|-742-|-153
RM: 202-|-954---|-14858---|-73.6-|-15.6-|-82-|-3.9-|-682-|-153


No it must be done to satisfy the Football Gods
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Old 07-01-2011, 11:31 AM   #119
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

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No it must be done to satisfy the Football Gods
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Old 07-01-2011, 12:55 PM   #120
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

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That's certainly not my point, or at least I would state it differently. Not saying don't let him in the hall cause he's a prick. I would "dock him" on job performance. His job performance, which for ally players includes interviews, teammate relationships & sideline conduct, was harmful to his teams.

Rather than debate "character" just look at what the guy did for his teams. He made plays but he also tore a couple teams apart.
His job performance is judged by what he did on the field and nothing else. Like I said; tons of pricks in the Hall of Fame. Tons of guys who didn't have the best relationships with their teammates, didn't handle themselves the best way in interviews, weren't boy scouts on or off the field.

I mean maybe that's the way it should be, but that's not the way it is, And there's plenty of guys without outstanding character who don't make it while total jerks do.

The Hall of Fame and it's voting process are nutty. Should he be first ballot based on his numbers? Yes. Should he be based on his overall impact on football teams? Probably not. But the voting process is so frakked up that it's hard to guess what they'll be thinking.
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