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Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

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Old 07-02-2011, 10:53 AM   #121
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

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Old 07-02-2011, 06:52 PM   #122
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

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T.O. should be a first-ballot Hall of Famer, but . . . . | ProFootballTalk

I think he should be without a doubt, his numbers are undeniable, what do you think?
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Old 07-03-2011, 07:05 PM   #123
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

There's no question he's first ballot HOF. For the better part of his career he was no worse than the third best WR in the game and a convincing argument can be made that he was the best-better than Moss and Harrison. He put up monster numbers in spite of mostly mediocre QBs (after Steve Young) that he played with.

I wouldn't want him mentoring young WR on teamwork but he's an all time great.
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Old 07-04-2011, 01:42 PM   #124
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

First ballot, IMO, No. Within 1-2 years afterwards, definitely. First ballot is a special honor, with no SBs and being a less than stellar teammate, I'd make him wait. No question he was a dominant WR in his era and deserves to be in the HoF.

Rice as unquestioned WR GOAT...definitely debateable. He played with not only two HoF QBs, but was caoched by one of the most innovative minds to ever walk the sideline. Here are some others that deserve to be in that conversation:

Charley Taylor
Randy Moss
and yes...Don Hutson.
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Old 07-05-2011, 01:11 PM   #125
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

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If I was a team that was close and needed a big time WR to get over the top, I'd take him for a one year rental only.
Matty, you think he should be a hall of famer, yet you'd only take him for a "one year rental" & that's only if the team is close to winning it all.
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Old 07-05-2011, 01:22 PM   #126
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

Freddy,

I am in the same boat as Matty. I think TO should be a shoe-in for the HOF, but the HOF is a full career consideration. TO is older now and not at the same level as maybe 2-4 years ago. That's why you take him for a year.
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Old 07-05-2011, 01:35 PM   #127
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

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Freddy,

I am in the same boat as Matty. I think TO should be a shoe-in for the HOF, but the HOF is a full career consideration. TO is older now and not at the same level as maybe 2-4 years ago. That's why you take him for a year.
He may be totally done now. My question was "in his prime" would you take him, not now. I would hope we all at least agree that the skins shouldn't even talk to rosenhaus about him!
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Old 07-05-2011, 02:18 PM   #128
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

Last year I wanted him. I won't lie. Granted, I was a little less...knowledgable about things, I suppose. But yeah, I still wanted him. T.O, Moss, Armstrong and Cooley? You kidding me? Shhoooooot, if T.O were healthy I'd take that line-up now.

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Old 07-05-2011, 02:22 PM   #129
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

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Matty, you think he should be a hall of famer, yet you'd only take him for a "one year rental" & that's only if the team is close to winning it all.
You're talking about two different things.

Based on his production, he's a clear cut HOF'er.

Based on what we know about his behavior, I would only want him as a rented gun on an established team with strong leadership.
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Old 07-05-2011, 02:45 PM   #130
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

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Originally Posted by NLC1054 View Post
Last year I wanted him. I won't lie. Granted, I was a little less...knowledgable about things, I suppose. But yeah, I still wanted him. T.O, Moss, Armstrong and Cooley? You kidding me? Shhoooooot, if T.O were healthy I'd take that line-up now.

...This is why I will never and should never be a GM.
If your trying to build a team the last thing you need is TO or say like a Hanyesworth, oh wait...
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Old 07-05-2011, 03:53 PM   #131
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

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You're talking about two different things.

Based on his production, he's a clear cut HOF'er.

Based on what we know about his behavior, I would only want him as a rented gun on an established team with strong leadership.
I don't think so, and that's my point, he should be judged by his impact on his teams, which includes both great plays & shenanigans on & off the field. You can't separate his production from his behavior. While some here have said the hall is not based on "character" I agree, but it can be based on something simple like helping your team win. I would argue he countered all of his positives equally or more so w/negatives in that area.

This will be an interesting one for Hall voters. They've shown that a player's personal problems off the field have not kept them out of the hall, but have they ever dealt w/a player who's conduct on & off field was so detrimental to his team?
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Old 07-05-2011, 04:38 PM   #132
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

Coming to this one late.. but I agree w/ freddyg12's assessment. I get that off-the-field character issues (for example - Lawrence Taylor) are not considered. TO's character issues, however, affected his team's play on the field and had a negative effect on the long term stability of those teams and their ability to remain competitive.

TO blew up a competitive SF team by forcing a competent starter out of town and was, as I recall, accused fostering/creating a negative "me-first" attitude amongst the young receivers. In Philly, yes - they got to the SB with him BUT, after that, he again tosses his QB under the bus, gets suspended for insubordination, and creates a situation where he cannot remain as part of the team. Rinse, Recycle and repeat in Dallas. Teams find ways to keep guys who, in their prime, are going to be HOF'ers. In TO's case, teams looked for ways to get rid of him.

How many HOF'ers had to be cut to preserve the team? Maybe there are some, I can't think of any. Someone name me a player in the HOF that was as big a team cancer as TO - not someone who was a jackass or who was difficult - someone who forced teams to dump the player and reconstruct themselves as a team.

I am sorry, HOF'ers (certainly first ballot HOF'ers) do not create destructive team situations. TO did just that.
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Old 07-05-2011, 04:58 PM   #133
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

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Coming to this one late.. but I agree w/ freddyg12's assessment. I get that off-the-field character issues (for example - Lawrence Taylor) are not considered. TO's character issues, however, affected his team's play on the field and had a negative effect on the long term stability of those teams and their ability to remain competitive.

TO blew up a competitive SF team by forcing a competent starter out of town and was, as I recall, accused fostering/creating a negative "me-first" attitude amongst the young receivers. In Philly, yes - they got to the SB with him BUT, after that, he again tosses his QB under the bus, gets suspended for insubordination, and creates a situation where he cannot remain as part of the team. Rinse, Recycle and repeat in Dallas. Teams find ways to keep guys who, in their prime, are going to be HOF'ers. In TO's case, teams looked for ways to get rid of him.

How many HOF'ers had to be cut to preserve the team? Maybe there are some, I can't think of any. Someone name me a player in the HOF that was as big a team cancer as TO - not someone who was a jackass or who was difficult - someone who forced teams to dump the player and reconstruct themselves as a team.

I am sorry, HOF'ers (certainly first ballot HOF'ers) do not create destructive team situations. TO did just that.
Nice Joe! well said, thanks.
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Old 07-05-2011, 05:56 PM   #134
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

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Originally Posted by freddyg12 View Post
I don't think so, and that's my point, he should be judged by his impact on his teams, which includes both great plays & shenanigans on & off the field. You can't separate his production from his behavior. While some here have said the hall is not based on "character" I agree, but it can be based on something simple like helping your team win. I would argue he countered all of his positives equally or more so w/negatives in that area.

This will be an interesting one for Hall voters. They've shown that a player's personal problems off the field have not kept them out of the hall, but have they ever dealt w/a player who's conduct on & off field was so detrimental to his team?
I still view the issues separately. In many instances his production trumped his PIA factor, sometimes not, but overall his production is just undeniable.

So do you think he's a HOF player or no?
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Old 07-05-2011, 07:50 PM   #135
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Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

After C. Carter, M. Harrison, T. Brown, A. Reed. But not in front of any of them. If they are all in by the time he is eligible, he still needs to sit a couple years.

If I was voter, I would eventually vote for him, holding my nose the entire time. He is the antithesis of team in a team game.
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