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Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

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Old 08-27-2011, 05:33 PM   #136
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

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I see that list as more like 10 guys at the level of DHall plus 6 that are admittedly better.
So then we basically disagree on whether Hall is a true playmaker or not, but agree that his playmaking skill set is certainly not a commodity among other starting corners. You can get his ability to find the football with many other starters in the NFL, plus countless future draft pick college players.

My point was just when you frame the Hall value debate as "a high risk player who gives high reward," everyone always overstates Hall's (in my opinion) playmaking value towards that of other corners (in your opinion). Proponents of the guy often act like he's the only guy who is capable of intercepting a pass in the NFL, and god forbid he not be here some day because then who will get turnovers?

If you make this a defensive backs argument, it's easy to find 30 safeties who make positive impact plays much more than Hall. But of course you can, safeties don't always have a coverage responsibility. Corners always do, which is why Hall's downside is often understated, in my opinion.
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Old 08-27-2011, 05:36 PM   #137
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

I am not questioning the value of Hall's big plays to the Redskins. Just the frequency of them.
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Old 08-27-2011, 05:38 PM   #138
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

Okay fair enough, I'll agree with that. No question he's overrated in regards to his playmaking, but not so much so that he should be thought of as someone that is holding back our defense IMO.

And I still say he did a good job when it came to tackling last year. I'm sure he whiffed on a few but what CB doesnt (answer: very few)
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Old 08-27-2011, 05:50 PM   #139
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

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Okay fair enough, I'll agree with that. No question he's overrated in regards to his playmaking, but not so much so that he should be thought of as someone that is holding back our defense IMO.

And I still say he did a good job when it came to tackling last year. I'm sure he whiffed on a few but what CB doesnt (answer: very few)
I'm not even sure I have a concrete opinion on whether Hall truly holds back the defense, or whether he's more of an innocent bystander in a vortex of suck that is our pass defense. I waffle on this. I totally agree with you that simply getting rid of Hall wouldn't fix all of our defensive problems. It would make Byron Westbrook a starting corner.

I don't disagree with those who say he improved in tackling last year. He wasn't good in run support, but for all the times that teams tried that "now" smoke screen against Hall, he generally stopped the receiver before it started. Can he tackle a back in space? No. And neither can Rocky McIntosh, a linebacker. Hall used to struggle to put receivers on the ground, and I don't think he did last year. Young players can improve and I believe that's what happened to Hall's tackling skill. He got better at it.

I think Hall is a problem on this defense. And when I see him do something self-absorbed, there are days I'm certain we'd be better off without him and his contract. Most of the time, I'm able to remind myself that most football teams don't have two good corners, and some teams absolutely start players who don't contribute as much as Hall does. But my biggest issue is the selfishness that leads to penalties of the 5 and 15 yard variety.

Hall thinks he's good enough where his on-field contributions outweigh any flags he may get for extracurricular activity. And that's where my support for him as a Redskin ends.
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Old 08-27-2011, 06:00 PM   #140
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

Hall is best the CB on this team, and has been since Champ Bailey, D. Green. He one of the few guys on our defensive side of the ball that has made plays for us when we need them.

He did something in the heat of the moment, and the coach didn't seem to mind. Thats not saying he's held to a higher standard. It's just not that big of a deal.

Chis Cooley is my favorite Redskin, but he didn't recieve half the hell when he knocked out that ball out of bounds on purpose to stop the clock and got a 15 yarder for it a few years ago IN THE HEAT of the moment.

I'm glad he attempted to hold the play so the booth had time to review it. It shows me that he cares about giving up plays even in a preseason game. I suppose if he just walked off the field and shrugged his shoulders then Gtripp would be here talking about that as well. He's obviously against D. Hall and that's his choice so there will be no changing his opinion on the guy, no matter if he has 15 INT's this year and 3 touchdowns.

Let's just let it be, and put this thread back on oand make a new thread.
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Old 08-27-2011, 06:12 PM   #141
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

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Hall is best the CB on this team, and has been since Champ Bailey, D. Green. He one of the few guys on our defensive side of the ball that has made plays for us when we need them.

He did something in the heat of the moment, and the coach didn't seem to mind. Thats not saying he's held to a higher standard. It's just not that big of a deal.

Chis Cooley is my favorite Redskin, but he didn't recieve half the hell when he knocked out that ball out of bounds on purpose to stop the clock and got a 15 yarder for it a few years ago IN THE HEAT of the moment.

I'm glad he attempted to hold the play so the booth had time to review it. It shows me that he cares about giving up plays even in a preseason game. I suppose if he just walked off the field and shrugged his shoulders then Gtripp would be here talking about that as well. He's obviously against D. Hall and that's his choice so there will be no changing his opinion on the guy, no matter if he has 15 INT's this year and 3 touchdowns.

Let's just let it be, and put this thread back on oand make a new thread.
Yes, but Cooley's play killed any chance of a turnover and no one could possibly conclude he was being me-first or selfish by preserving the possession for the Redskins, even after he committed an illegal bat. The Cooley-equivalent of what Hall did would be if he lost the fumble, it was recovered by the defense, and then if Cooley pointed at three different officials to argue that he was down by contact, and then went and stood behind the opposing huddle and got an offside penalty in protest. And then I would absolutely argue that Cooley was being selfish. Of course, that didn't happen.

The second point is just mindbogglingly stupid. That's exactly what any player fighting for their job would and should have done. If I had chosen to remark about the on-field play, that's not hating, that's having some semblance of awareness about what is happening during the football game. But since I never even went in that direction, this is total lunacy.
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Old 08-27-2011, 06:29 PM   #142
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

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So then we basically disagree on whether Hall is a true playmaker or not, but agree that his playmaking skill set is certainly not a commodity among other starting corners. You can get his ability to find the football with many other starters in the NFL, plus countless future draft pick college players.

My point was just when you frame the Hall value debate as "a high risk player who gives high reward," everyone always overstates Hall's (in my opinion) playmaking value towards that of other corners (in your opinion). Proponents of the guy often act like he's the only guy who is capable of intercepting a pass in the NFL, and god forbid he not be here some day because then who will get turnovers?

If you make this a defensive backs argument, it's easy to find 30 safeties who make positive impact plays much more than Hall. But of course you can, safeties don't always have a coverage responsibility. Corners always do, which is why Hall's downside is often understated, in my opinion.
How do you define and/or categorize playmaking? Maybe my definition is too simplistic but when Hall touches the ball, which is fairly often in his case, he's a threat to score nearly every time. Sorry, but most NFL cornerbacks don't have that quality and they certainly aren't falling off trees coming out of college either. He forces fumbles and makes interceptions. That's a pretty straight forward analysis to me. The Redskins weren't causing turnovers or scoring touchdowns for some time prior to signing D.Hall. So for all the players available that are capable of getting turnovers, they sure as hell weren't playing for the Washington Redskins.

Your list of corners that are better than D.Hall is quite impressive, but I maintain I watch this guy every week. The other corners, not so much. So it's curious to me how someone --anyone-- can make a true apples to apples comparison across the entire league, dismiss stats, and drop one cornerback near the back of the pack. Admittedly, I watch mostly NFC and NFC East games and whatever else is being nationally televised. I haven't seen the other cornerbacks play enough for me to conclude with certainty, yes this guy or that guy is hands down better than D.Hall. To be completely honest about Nmandi being the best corner, I even come to that conclusion based on consensus around the league, not because I've actually seen him play a lot of games. For instance, I've watched Terrence Newman play quite a bit. I think he's a very good NFL cornerback. But I distinctly remember for a few years he sucked. At least in my opinion he did. He's grown as a professional and has established himself as one of the better players at that position.

Lastly, why do you think D.Hall is more self-absorbed than other cornerback or football player in general? Your characterization seems biased in my opinion.

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Old 08-27-2011, 06:31 PM   #143
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

Great review SS33 ( John Madden ) . Very direct in your view , thanks for the insight. Good luck everyone , Irene is here .
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Old 08-27-2011, 06:39 PM   #144
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

Good read SS33.
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Old 08-27-2011, 06:51 PM   #145
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

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How do you define and/or categorize playmaking? Maybe my definition is too simplistic but when Hall touches the ball, which is fairly often in his case, he's a threat to score nearly every time. Sorry, but most NFL cornerbacks don't have that quality and they certainly aren't falling off trees coming out of college either. He forces fumbles and makes interceptions. That's a pretty straight forward analysis to me. The Redskins weren't causing turnovers or scoring touchdowns for some time prior to signing D.Hall. So for all the players available that are capable of getting turnovers, they sure as hell weren't playing for the Washington Redskins.

Your list of corners that are better than D.Hall is quite impressive, but I maintain I watch this guy every week. The other corners, not so much. So it's curious to me how someone --anyone-- can make a true apples to apples comparison across the entire league, dismiss stats, and drop one cornerback near the back of the pack. Admittedly, I watch mostly NFC and NFC East games and whatever else is being nationally televised. I haven't seen the other cornerbacks play enough for me to conclude with certainty, yes this guy or that guy is hands down better than D.Hall. To be completely honest about Nmandi being the best corner, I even come to that conclusion based on consensus around the league, not because I've actually seen him play a lot of games. For instance, I've watched Terrence Newman play quite a bit. I think he's a very good NFL cornerback. But I distinctly remember for a few years he sucked. At least in my opinion he did. He's grown as a professional and has established himself as one of the better players at that position.

Lastly, why do you think D.Hall is more self-absorbed than other cornerback or football player in general? Your characterization seems biased in my opinion.
When he has the ball in his hands? Oh yeah, Hall is fantastic with the ball in his hands. He's a threat to take it to the house every time. One of the very best in the game. For 4 plays in any given season. That's more than $3 million/play, if you do the math.

The more liberal we use the definition, the fewer plays Hall actually makes relative to the competition. I'm not saying we all should define playmaking as hard hits + difficult pass breakups + against the top level competition + interceptions and strips + scoring opportunities. That's a very broad stroke I'm painting with. I also started in reply to you by saying I hardly expect anyone to agree. I freely admitted to looking at it differently than the norm. And I don't feel that's a bad thing.

I can't claim to be without bias when it comes to Redskins players, so I won't try to convince anyone. The assertion that I'm biased against DHall, specifically (and because I hate him), is beyond silly and has no basis in reality. The assertion that I am biased because he's a Redskin and all the other corners I'm grading are not Redskins is far more rooted in reality. To that I'd say: of course. I consider myself informed, sure, but take the actual subjective ranking of a Redskins player against a non-Redskin with a grain of salt. There's definitely bias here, no matter how objective I try to be.
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Old 08-27-2011, 06:53 PM   #146
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

And let me be neither the last or first to add: good breakdown Slinging Sammy 33.
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Old 08-27-2011, 06:57 PM   #147
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

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Yes, but Cooley's play killed any chance of a turnover and no one could possibly conclude he was being me-first or selfish by preserving the possession for the Redskins, even after he committed an illegal bat. The Cooley-equivalent of what Hall did would be if he lost the fumble, it was recovered by the defense, and then if Cooley pointed at three different officials to argue that he was down by contact, and then went and stood behind the opposing huddle and got an offside penalty in protest. And then I would absolutely argue that Cooley was being selfish. Of course, that didn't happen.

The second point is just mindbogglingly stupid. That's exactly what any player fighting for their job would and should have done. If I had chosen to remark about the on-field play, that's not hating, that's having some semblance of awareness about what is happening during the football game. But since I never even went in that direction, this is total lunacy.

I think your hatred for one of the best CB's the Redskins have ever had is pretty mindbogglingly. It's obvious to the whole community your are anti-Hall
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Old 08-27-2011, 07:28 PM   #148
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

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I think your hatred for one of the best CB's the Redskins have ever had is pretty mindbogglingly. It's obvious to the whole community your are anti-Hall
Except I'm not even remotely anti-Hall. It's silly to say that.

I had a problem with what Hall did on Thursday. It was disgraceful. I was very much anti-Hall apologist to that action. Sorry if I offended you.
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Old 08-27-2011, 07:44 PM   #149
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

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I think your hatred for one of the best CB's the Redskins have ever had is pretty mindbogglingly. It's obvious to the whole community your are anti-Hall
Umm, no. He is not in the top 5 of "ever had" and I would trade him tomorrow for Smoot in his prime.

Parrish, Fisher, Bailey, Smoot, Springs, Green, ...

Hall is in the same class as Barry Wilburn, Rogers, Joe Lavender, Cris Dishman & Tom Carter. All these guys had there moments but were replaceable. Same as Hall.

At the same time, GTripp is in denial of Hall Hatred!
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Old 08-27-2011, 07:46 PM   #150
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

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At the same time, GTripp is in denial of Hall Hatred!
No I'm not!

I want my Carlos Rogers jersey!
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